ZeniMax Borrows $105m for id Software Aquisition

**kamspy** · 07-07-2009, 09:33 PM

I think it's worth it. Especially if you consider Fallout 3 (reportedly) made them $300m.

The only gripe people have about Bethesda stuff is the graphics, and id should be able to remedy that.

Now we have to see if id can make a compelling game engine in the console realm. It still hasn't been proved.

In the PC world this is all apple pies and ice cream, but id Engine 4 only showed up in Quake 4, Prey, and Quake Wars on consoles. All the games played really stiff on a controller, and the engine didn't scale down to the hardware as well as others.

id has been playing with Ray Tracing and other ways to render graphics aside from the standard rasterization.

But that means shit on current console hardware.

So, good buy or bad buy? From a business perspective.

Ntruder · 07-08-2009, 12:22 PM

I HATE id engine games. I always get tricked into buying them, and the console controls end up blowing more pole than a street walker

Cygnus · 07-08-2009, 01:30 PM

I thought the grafix and innovation of oblivion were pretty good, esp for its time. I have yet to try fallout 3. IMHO id has been overrated for quite some time. Even back in the doom/quake days, I was far more impressed with descent. A smarter buy Zeni would have been crytech (or at least license the CE3 engine)...assuming they are independent and available for sale. The CE3 engine looks more capable than anything id has shown. carmack knew his days of being worshiped by id fanboys were nearing its end and quickly sold to the first buyer.

**kamspy** · 07-08-2009, 03:00 PM

id does the cutting edge of video game graphics.

They invented the first person shooter. They were the first people with HDR lighting. The way things are looking, they'll be the first with ray tracing.

Very innovative and always pushing the boundaries. Crytek just refines the boundaries to a level of unmatched purity.

But yes, aside from Return to Castle Wolfenstein on the original Xbox (which I played the holy hell out of), for some reason the id engine never translated well to two analog sticks and some triggers.

Ntruder · 07-08-2009, 10:40 PM

No it really didn't. But you're right, great graphics. And they were the first to use HDR lighting, weren't they! Prey is a beautiful game, certainly was even better when it was launched.

Crytek is ahead of their time. I think they're from the future. I remember FarCry wouldn't work on any computers not owned by NASA when it first came out too.

Cygnus · 07-09-2009, 08:57 AM

Prey was just Doom3 with a prettier paint job. Its online play was laggy. It seems as if devs don't take id engine to other levels and not as flexible as say UE3. In a way I am glad that Zeni did not buy Crytek or else they prob would have had exclusive access to the engine. It is best for gamers and game industry that more have access to CE3.

**kamspy** · 07-09-2009, 03:07 PM

id engines are pretty flexible Cyg.

The new COD games use the Quake 3 engine.

Also, id didn't develop Prey, Quake 4, or Quake Wars. The last game they made was Doom 3.

Comparing it to the UE3 engine?! Ha! Look at Blacksite: Area 51, Mass Effect's frame rate on xbox, etc. UE3 just makes everything shiny. Good engine to make people say ooh and ahh. But not the best thing for great gameplay (Epic knows how to use it, but not many others.)

Cygnus · 07-09-2009, 04:54 PM

no, I meant that Prey used the doom 3 engine and it shows with the level design. Regarding UE3, for every Area 51, there is a Bioshock, Rainbow 6, Frontlines, etc. The engine has been used for FPS, TPS, RPG, MMO, fighting, 2D, etc. genres. Thats what I meant by flexibility.

MikeRox · 07-10-2009, 06:48 AM

Isn't level design more a lack of imagination rather than a game engine thing?

Cygnus · 07-10-2009, 07:45 PM

That is true to an extent. You still need a good engine to make a decent game...or else games would still be using doom 1 engine

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeRox

Isn't level design more a lack of imagination rather than a game engine thing?

**kamspy** · 07-10-2009, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeRox

Isn't level design more a lack of imagination rather than a game engine thing?

Have you played any of the id4 games on a console?

For whatever reason, the controls are just stiff as a board.

But, when Prey was released it was arguably the best looking game on the 360.

One of the reasons more people don't use the engine is because, like the PS3, they aren't familiar with the environment. id uses Open GL rather than DirectX.

But, the last game they released was Doom 3. When it came out, it was the best looking game on the market. So I have no real reason to doubt they're next project will, but the console emphasis on Rage is going to make it a challenge.

id has never been much for optimization for lesser powered hardware. Doom 3 for PC was the Crysis of it's day. No one could really run it maxed out for a good year after it came out.

Personally, I don't see why more devs aren't using the Dunia engine. Sure the controls for FC2 on console were a joke, but the engine scales like crazy.

I do think id5 will be the UE3 of the next generation of consoles. No one else is putting as much active R&D in ray tracing as id. Ray tracing is the next generation. It says good bye to pop-up entirely, and can render more complex geometry than rasterization by a mile. You guys are gonna love it.

MikeRox · 07-11-2009, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cygnus

That is true to an extent. You still need a good engine to make a decent game...or else games would still be using doom 1 engine

Are you saying the Doom 1 engine was poor?

You can have incredible level design without good visuals though. Just like controls are nothing to do with the level design. The multiplayer maps on Goldeneye are still IMO some of the finest designed levels ever conceived. That game could be remade on any current engine, give the visuals a lick of paint, and the level designs themselves could remain identical and you'd still have an incredible game IMO.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what Rare have done with Perfect Dark for the 360. Apparently it is 60fps with tidied up textures.

Cygnus · 07-12-2009, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeRox

Are you saying the Doom 1 engine was poor?

By standards way back then it was great... The point I was making is that you can have all the imagination in the world but you are limited to what the engine can do... But I do admit that devs imagination have not increased/improved proportionally with the game engines...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeRox

You can have incredible level design without good visuals though. Just like controls are nothing to do with the level design. The multiplayer maps on Goldeneye are still IMO some of the finest designed levels ever conceived.

I never really got into GE. IMHO the old skool game with innovative multiplayer, controls, grafix, etc was descent. That was the game that revolutionized online gaming...not doom

Cygnus · 07-12-2009, 10:33 AM

The august issue of game informer will have an article on rage. Hopefully its thorough. The more competition in engines the better. BTW epic is hard at work on UE4 and it will be ready for next-gen as well. I hope id will be allowed to license their engine with zeni owning them. When EA bought criterion, that seemed to kill renderware licensing...

MikeRox · 07-12-2009, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cygnus

By standards way back then it was great... The point I was making is that you can have all the imagination in the world but you are limited to what the engine can do... But I do admit that devs imagination have not increased/improved proportionally with the game engines...

I never really got into GE. IMHO the old skool game with innovative multiplayer, controls, grafix, etc was descent. That was the game that revolutionized online gaming...not doom

Isn't Doom some several years before descent? I believe descent was proper 3D. Doom is actually all made up from 2D sprites cleverly scaled and rotated to give the feel of 3 dimensions.

Doom pioneered LAN gaming I believe. Btw, I was just winding u up with the suggesting the Doom engine is bad

Ah I absolutely loved Descent. Never played multiplayer though as we didn't get internet access until about 1998. Dreamcast was when I first started gaming online properly (this is why I skoff at all the hailing of Microsoft for online console gaming

).

07-07-2009, 09:33 PM	#1
kamspy Esteban Moderatoro Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati,OH Good Posts: 12 Posts: 13,039	ZeniMax Borrows $105m for id Software Aquisition I think it's worth it. Especially if you consider Fallout 3 (reportedly) made them $300m. The only gripe people have about Bethesda stuff is the graphics, and id should be able to remedy that. Now we have to see if id can make a compelling game engine in the console realm. It still hasn't been proved. In the PC world this is all apple pies and ice cream, but id Engine 4 only showed up in Quake 4, Prey, and Quake Wars on consoles. All the games played really stiff on a controller, and the engine didn't scale down to the hardware as well as others. id has been playing with Ray Tracing and other ways to render graphics aside from the standard rasterization. But that means shit on current console hardware. So, good buy or bad buy? From a business perspective.

07-08-2009, 01:30 PM	#3
Cygnus The Bringer of Balance Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,828	I thought the grafix and innovation of oblivion were pretty good, esp for its time. I have yet to try fallout 3. IMHO id has been overrated for quite some time. Even back in the doom/quake days, I was far more impressed with descent. A smarter buy Zeni would have been crytech (or at least license the CE3 engine)...assuming they are independent and available for sale. The CE3 engine looks more capable than anything id has shown. carmack knew his days of being worshiped by id fanboys were nearing its end and quickly sold to the first buyer. __________________ Toshiba 57H81 Kenwood VR-616 Comcast DCT6412 III XBox 360 GamerTag Sec0nd2N0n3

07-09-2009, 08:57 AM	#6
Cygnus The Bringer of Balance Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,828	Prey was just Doom3 with a prettier paint job. Its online play was laggy. It seems as if devs don't take id engine to other levels and not as flexible as say UE3. In a way I am glad that Zeni did not buy Crytek or else they prob would have had exclusive access to the engine. It is best for gamers and game industry that more have access to CE3. __________________ Toshiba 57H81 Kenwood VR-616 Comcast DCT6412 III XBox 360 GamerTag Sec0nd2N0n3

07-09-2009, 04:54 PM	#8
Cygnus The Bringer of Balance Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,828	no, I meant that Prey used the doom 3 engine and it shows with the level design. Regarding UE3, for every Area 51, there is a Bioshock, Rainbow 6, Frontlines, etc. The engine has been used for FPS, TPS, RPG, MMO, fighting, 2D, etc. genres. Thats what I meant by flexibility. __________________ Toshiba 57H81 Kenwood VR-616 Comcast DCT6412 III XBox 360 GamerTag Sec0nd2N0n3

07-10-2009, 06:48 AM	#9
MikeRox Blu Blu Skies! :D Join Date: May 2007 Location: Huddersfield, United Kingdom Posts: 12,414	Isn't level design more a lack of imagination rather than a game engine thing? __________________ REGION B 4TW! Latest HD additions - I Love You Man - 17 Again - Born on the 4th of July - Paul Blart: Mall Cop - Monsters, Inc. HD Movies - Um... Lost count >_< bout 250 Latest Gaming Additions - Mirrors Edge - Scene It BOS - Wartech: Senko No Ronde - Lego Indiana Jones/Kung Fu Panda 2 pack - Silent Hill

07-08-2009, 12:22 PM	#2
Ntruder Defender of Sanity Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 3,239	I HATE id engine games. I always get tricked into buying them, and the console controls end up blowing more pole than a street walker

07-08-2009, 03:00 PM	#4
kamspy Esteban Moderatoro Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati,OH Good Posts: 12 Posts: 13,039	id does the cutting edge of video game graphics. They invented the first person shooter. They were the first people with HDR lighting. The way things are looking, they'll be the first with ray tracing. Very innovative and always pushing the boundaries. Crytek just refines the boundaries to a level of unmatched purity. But yes, aside from Return to Castle Wolfenstein on the original Xbox (which I played the holy hell out of), for some reason the id engine never translated well to two analog sticks and some triggers.

07-08-2009, 10:40 PM	#5
Ntruder Defender of Sanity Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 3,239	No it really didn't. But you're right, great graphics. And they were the first to use HDR lighting, weren't they! Prey is a beautiful game, certainly was even better when it was launched. Crytek is ahead of their time. I think they're from the future. I remember FarCry wouldn't work on any computers not owned by NASA when it first came out too.

07-09-2009, 03:07 PM	#7
kamspy Esteban Moderatoro Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati,OH Good Posts: 12 Posts: 13,039	id engines are pretty flexible Cyg. The new COD games use the Quake 3 engine. Also, id didn't develop Prey, Quake 4, or Quake Wars. The last game they made was Doom 3. Comparing it to the UE3 engine?! Ha! Look at Blacksite: Area 51, Mass Effect's frame rate on xbox, etc. UE3 just makes everything shiny. Good engine to make people say ooh and ahh. But not the best thing for great gameplay (Epic knows how to use it, but not many others.)

07-12-2009, 10:33 AM	#14
Cygnus The Bringer of Balance Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,828	The august issue of game informer will have an article on rage. Hopefully its thorough. The more competition in engines the better. BTW epic is hard at work on UE4 and it will be ready for next-gen as well. I hope id will be allowed to license their engine with zeni owning them. When EA bought criterion, that seemed to kill renderware licensing... __________________ Toshiba 57H81 Kenwood VR-616 Comcast DCT6412 III XBox 360 GamerTag Sec0nd2N0n3

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