High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource

Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource > General Chit Chat > Gaming & Systems
Rules HDTV Forum Gallery LINK TO US! RSS - High Def Forum AddThis Feed Button AddThis Social Bookmark Button Groups

Gaming & Systems A place to discuss video game systems RSS - Gaming & Systems

Xbox 360 Display Settings - HDMI Color and Reference Levels

Reply
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-09-2008, 01:28 PM   #1
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 140
Default Xbox 360 Display Settings - HDMI Color and Reference Levels

I did a quick search for any threads on this and couldn't find any. I read over this thread

http://www./avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1080495

and couldn't find a definite answer. What I'm wondering is what Xbox settings should be used with a 1080p HDTV display over HDMI?

With the NXE update there is now two options called Reference Level and HDMI Color Space. I believe Reference Level is the same setting as the PS3's RGB Full setting, but it has 3 options (Standard, Intermediate and Expanded). HDMI Color Space lets you choose Rec. 601, 709, Auto, Source or RGB.

The debate seems to be that games use RGB, so some say RGB and Standard or RGB and Expanded are the best for gaming. The drawback is unless your display is calibrated for RGB or a computer monitor it may not look right or cruch black/whites.

Others think that Rec. 709 is best if you play video, but if you choose 709 you should leave the reference level on Standard. This contradicts the idea that setting a PS3 to YPb/Cb Pr/Cr and RGB Full is best (if your display can handle it).

I'm just confused by these new settings. I'm guessing leaving it to Standard and Auto is a safe bet, but I've spent too much time calibrating my display to just accept my gaming to look sub-par.

However, my TV is calibrated for video (used DVE:HD Blu-Ray played on my PS3), so I know I'm already making a compromise to favor video over gaming.

The further complicate things I stream Netflix through the Xbox as well. So what setting would make for the best compromise for Netflix and gaming?
__________________

Living Room Setup:
Philips 42" PFL7422D/37 (DVE Blu-Ray calibrated)
PS3, Xbox 360 & Wii
VIP722 HD DVR (Dish Network)
Sony STR-DG820 AV Receiver
Boston Acoustic Horizon MCS 100 5.1 Speakers
Boston Acoustic 100 Watt 8" Powered Sub
Harmony 550 Remote
chrism87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2008, 02:01 PM   #2
The 65 VT & Neil Rock!
 
Razor05's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,895
Default

Here's some explanation of the 3 different settings. I have my 360 set to expanded.
__________________

Panasonic TC-P65VT50
Sony KDL37XBR6
Panasonic TH-37PX50U
Cambridge Audio Azur 640R & 740C
Paradigm Studio 60's, 20's, CC-590 & Seismic 12
Panasonic DMP-BDT220 & DMP-BD35
Toshiba HD-XA2 & A35

Xbox One w Kinect GT: Razor59
PS4 GT: Razor_59
Steam ID: razor59pc

PC: Intel i7-4960x, G.Skill 2133 16GB, Asus Rampage IV Extreme Black, NVidia GTX 690 4GB, XSPC CPU & GPU WC'd, Samsung 850 Pro 256 & 512 SSD, Sound Blaster Zx, Dell U3011

MacBook Pro

- 400+
- 55
Razor05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2008, 02:13 PM   #3
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 140
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor05 View Post
Here's some explanation of the 3 different settings. I have my 360 set to expanded.
Thanks for the article, that helped clear things up a bit.

So you use the Expanded setting. Is that with VGA or HDMI?
__________________

Living Room Setup:
Philips 42" PFL7422D/37 (DVE Blu-Ray calibrated)
PS3, Xbox 360 & Wii
VIP722 HD DVR (Dish Network)
Sony STR-DG820 AV Receiver
Boston Acoustic Horizon MCS 100 5.1 Speakers
Boston Acoustic 100 Watt 8" Powered Sub
Harmony 550 Remote
chrism87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2008, 02:23 PM   #4
The 65 VT & Neil Rock!
 
Razor05's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,895
Default

Yw, that's with HDMI. I'm taking that it's the best setting a person can use.
__________________

Panasonic TC-P65VT50
Sony KDL37XBR6
Panasonic TH-37PX50U
Cambridge Audio Azur 640R & 740C
Paradigm Studio 60's, 20's, CC-590 & Seismic 12
Panasonic DMP-BDT220 & DMP-BD35
Toshiba HD-XA2 & A35

Xbox One w Kinect GT: Razor59
PS4 GT: Razor_59
Steam ID: razor59pc

PC: Intel i7-4960x, G.Skill 2133 16GB, Asus Rampage IV Extreme Black, NVidia GTX 690 4GB, XSPC CPU & GPU WC'd, Samsung 850 Pro 256 & 512 SSD, Sound Blaster Zx, Dell U3011

MacBook Pro

- 400+
- 55
Razor05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2008, 02:31 PM   #5
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 140
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor05 View Post
Yw, that's with HDMI. I'm taking that it's the best setting a person can use.
That's what I'm thinking. From that article I'm under the impression that by selecting Expanded you're telling the Xbox to use 7.5.

I guess I'll leave HDMI Color Space left on Auto or Source for now or set it to 709 when I watch movies. I think it's going to require I display some test images and experimentation to see just what looks the best for how I've calibrated my display.

Thanks again for the info.
__________________

Living Room Setup:
Philips 42" PFL7422D/37 (DVE Blu-Ray calibrated)
PS3, Xbox 360 & Wii
VIP722 HD DVR (Dish Network)
Sony STR-DG820 AV Receiver
Boston Acoustic Horizon MCS 100 5.1 Speakers
Boston Acoustic 100 Watt 8" Powered Sub
Harmony 550 Remote
chrism87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2008, 09:38 PM   #6
The 65 VT & Neil Rock!
 
Razor05's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,895
Default

Np
__________________

Panasonic TC-P65VT50
Sony KDL37XBR6
Panasonic TH-37PX50U
Cambridge Audio Azur 640R & 740C
Paradigm Studio 60's, 20's, CC-590 & Seismic 12
Panasonic DMP-BDT220 & DMP-BD35
Toshiba HD-XA2 & A35

Xbox One w Kinect GT: Razor59
PS4 GT: Razor_59
Steam ID: razor59pc

PC: Intel i7-4960x, G.Skill 2133 16GB, Asus Rampage IV Extreme Black, NVidia GTX 690 4GB, XSPC CPU & GPU WC'd, Samsung 850 Pro 256 & 512 SSD, Sound Blaster Zx, Dell U3011

MacBook Pro

- 400+
- 55
Razor05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 07:32 AM   #7
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 140
Default

Edit/Update: I just called Philips and confirmed that setting the input does not alter the signal in any way regardless of how the manual makes it sound. It also fully supports the full RGB range. So what I need to know is how exactly the Xbox outputs video games and Netflix video.

After doing some more research on both these settings, the PS3 RGB Full setting and my own TV I'm leaning towards using the Standard reference level.

Here's why:

My TV allows you to "install" inputs. At first glance I always thought this was just a way to tag inputs for what they were (i.e. "DVR", "Blu-Ray", etc.). After combing through the FAQ on Philips website and reading that the Xbox should be treated as a PC (on the AVS Forums, not the FAQ) I found "How do I experience the best picture quality with my PC connected to my TV?" among the other FAQs on Philips' site.

According to Philips, my TV actually changes how it handles the video by how you install the input. They suggest setting the input to "PC" for home/office use or, if playing PC games, setting it to "Game".

Currently the Xbox and PS3 are connected to my receiver via HDMI and then the receiver passes the video to the TV. The input (HDMI 1) is set to Blu-Ray as a leftover from when my PS3 was connected directly to that input.

If I understand this correctly, PC graphic cards (and the Xbox) output 0 black level instead of the correct 7.5. I thought by selecting Expanded you set the Xbox to output 7.5, but now I'm thinking Expanded is actually setting it to output +7.5 to the signal.

In other words, if my TV believes the video it is receiving is always from a Blu-Ray player than is it doing something to adjust the signal to 7.5 already? If it is, am I just screwing it up with Expanded?

Any change my TV makes to settings depending on the input nname may also be limited to changes to features like Dynamic Contrast and Vivid Color, all of which I have off.

My TV's FAQ and manual also makes constant reference to RGB signals, so am I to assume it is better suited to set my PS3 and Xbox to RGB and then probably set my TV's input to PC?

See, this is what happens when game consoles and BD players become little computers. I'm just confused now. This is going to take quite a bit more research unless someone has an answer.
__________________

Living Room Setup:
Philips 42" PFL7422D/37 (DVE Blu-Ray calibrated)
PS3, Xbox 360 & Wii
VIP722 HD DVR (Dish Network)
Sony STR-DG820 AV Receiver
Boston Acoustic Horizon MCS 100 5.1 Speakers
Boston Acoustic 100 Watt 8" Powered Sub
Harmony 550 Remote

Last edited by chrism87; 12-12-2008 at 07:51 AM.
chrism87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 08:26 AM   #8
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 140
Default

I finally found a thread cleared this up for me. Stephen Neal on the AV Forums wrote this about the RGB Full setting on the PS#:

Quote:
I think people are confused as to what FULL and LIMITED RGB are for - they are NOT to do with Deep Colour and xycc colour.

They are to do with support for legacy RGB DVI displays which support only 0-255 RGB levels and not the broadcast/studio standard of 16-235 RGB levels which almost all HDMI displays should support, and is the levels standard used for DVDs and BluRays.

Many displays will cope with either setting and deliver near identical results - though will need re-calibration depending on which one you chose. If you do not recalibrate, then FULL will appear to have deeper, crushed blacks and thus more saturated colours, and brighter whites. However with correct calibration on a studio level capable display there should be no difference. Additionally Limited levels will allow blacker-than-black and whiter-than-white to be passed through, whereas Full levels can't allow this as anything below 16 or above 235 in studio levels terms is mapped to 0 or 255 in Full (aka PC level terms)

AIUI Super White is the option to allow Whiter than White to be passed rather than clipped - and as such is only available in YCrCb (and possibly Limited RGB options)
From this I can assume that my year-old HDTV does not need the PS3's Full RGB setting and I should use Limited. I calibrated my TV with this setting set to Full using DVE on Blu-Ray, so I can also assume I need to recalibrate with the Limited setting.

That should make a difference with the Xbox 360's picture. I think I'll be trying Auto or Source combined with Standard assuming the Xbox outputs video in the same manner as the PS3.
__________________

Living Room Setup:
Philips 42" PFL7422D/37 (DVE Blu-Ray calibrated)
PS3, Xbox 360 & Wii
VIP722 HD DVR (Dish Network)
Sony STR-DG820 AV Receiver
Boston Acoustic Horizon MCS 100 5.1 Speakers
Boston Acoustic 100 Watt 8" Powered Sub
Harmony 550 Remote
chrism87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 10:52 AM   #9
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 140
Default

One final post and I'm done. I just want this information available for anyone else asking the same questions.

On the AVS Forums they had this discussion and PARASITE performed the following test with interesting results:

Quote:
When I put the pattern on a usb stick and loaded into my xbox and set the reference level to standard and my tv to auto color space "which detects and switches to pc or video dependant on source", it correctly displayed the pattern crushing everything below 16 and over 235. I do want to point out 16 was infact black. Now the interesting results was this. When I set the reference levels to expanded my tv locked into to pc color mode and the ugly truth reared its head. I could clearly see every bar down to zero, BUT 0 WAS NOT BLACK! How could this be? The answer will shock you, but first I need to evaluate my hypothesis. I then took the usb stick with test pattern in hand and stuck it into my TV usb reader "thanks pioneer for a cool feature". First setting my tv to video color space, the pattern clearly crushed everything below 16 like I knew it would. Everything like before above 235 was crushed as well. Now for the shocker. When I set my tv to pc color my fears were then realized. The pattern showed every single strip down to 0 but, 0 was black as midnight unlike before on the 360 were black was dark grey. 255 was also absolute white and every strip below it was clearly slightly less white. THIS IS HOW THIS PATTERN IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK!

What did we learn through all of this? THE 360 SET TO EXPANDED IS NOT MAPPING THE LEVELS CORRECTLY.
That is why people say the pattern looks right on their pc or if they look at the pattern through any other usb device other then the 360. Yes you can use expanded on your tv if it has a pc color mode. However you are probally not getting the best image possible and are most likely losing contrast. When you set the 360 to expanded and use pc color on your television, you can only achieve black by lowering the brightness too far on your display which corrupts the original image. I have confirmed the problem being the 360 mapping errors in color space by using a different device to display the pattern on the same display. By do this I prove the calibration of the display is not the culprit.
I am confident now in saying the best image possible with hdmi for most people is by using reference levels standard. If your tv will display video and pc levels correctly then standard is what you should use. The problem is and always has been the 360. If you set refernce levels to expanded and your tv picture washes out, then your tv is looking for video levels. If your tv shows severe black crush on standard then PC levels is what you use. If your tv can do either standard or reference "sometimes by changing color space in the display" you should use standard because expanded is not mapping the levels correctly and you are losing black and washing out the very low ire. In lamens terms things that are supposed to be black will be gray.
Feel free to duplicate the test I have done.
Cybersoga replied to the test with this:

Quote:
The conclusion i've come to is that both DVD's and video games on the xbox 360 use the same levels natively - level 16 as black and 235 as white (video levels).

When you set the xbox 360 to RGB expanded and your TV is expecting PC Levels, all it does is it expands level 16 to level 0 and 235 to 255 and re-maps all the levels in between. Both DVDs and video games are affected the same way. <16 and >235 are hard clipped. This looks almost the same as when the xbox 360 is outputting video levels on a TV that's expecting video levels, however you are adding an extra conversion stage which can add banding and other artefacts. Below black and above white data is used by the video processor in the screen to reduce interpolation errors, so the lack of that could also degrade the picture.

The thing is, there's no way to get native PC levels out of the xbox 360 because no matter what you do, the xbox 360 treats 16 as black for both DVDs and Video Games.

So now I am in the agreement that there is no advantage to setting the xbox 360 to output expanded levels. Video levels are native for both DVDs and Video Games. If the TV and can be set to accept video levels that is the best option to have the xbox 360 outputting.
It seems that if you're using a VGA cable then Expanded will work properly by remapping 16 to 0 as 100% black and 235 to 255 as 100% bright white.

However, if you're not using VGA than the Xbox does not seem to remap the range correctly and the image will appear washed out in comparison to Standard reference level. It was also noted that the Xbox's input should not be named PC or anything like it, but should be named anything else to be sure it's not expecting PC input.

While at home over lunch I switched my PS3 to the MGS4 theme (a very textured background of all blacks and greys) and switched to Limited RGB. The difference was astounding. I went from mostly shadows and black areas to a mucn more expansive grey area with a lot of texture. Blacks did not appear as rich and deep, but I have so far writtent hat off as my TV now having incorrect Contrast/Brightness.

Then I tried the Xbox 360. I chose the free Holiday 2008 Premium theme for the dark mountain and snowy pine trees in the background. It started on Expanded and the mountain was very dark and the trees seemed to be shadowed on the top. When I switched to Limited it all changed the same as it had for the PS3. I didn't have a heavily textured image, but the shadows "softened" and the mountain looked much more purplish-blue than dark and shadowed. I then tried various combinations of RGB, 709, Standard and Expanded with the same results.

Again, I assume once I have time tonight to change the settings tonight when the sun sets the image will look less washed out.

Of course, it all really boils down to personal preference.

http://www./avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1087510
__________________

Living Room Setup:
Philips 42" PFL7422D/37 (DVE Blu-Ray calibrated)
PS3, Xbox 360 & Wii
VIP722 HD DVR (Dish Network)
Sony STR-DG820 AV Receiver
Boston Acoustic Horizon MCS 100 5.1 Speakers
Boston Acoustic 100 Watt 8" Powered Sub
Harmony 550 Remote
chrism87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 07:42 AM   #10
What is HD?
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2
Default

So if 360 or ps3 is connected via HDMI to an HD tv then i should set it to standard on 360 and limited on ps3?

I'm a noob on this kinda a thing, please help >.<''

Im current using a Sony KDL46 HD LCD TV connect with HDMI
I have both ps3 and 360
my setting on ps3 is RGB - Limited and Super White - Off
setting on 360 is Reference Level - Standard and HDMI Color Space - Auto

Any suggestion to make it better?
Thanks
eiddyQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 07:53 AM   #11
What is HD?
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2
Default

i forgot to add
my tv setting is on vivid mode cuz its the best looking and more detail but i find it a little to bright
eiddyQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 08:44 AM   #12
The 65 VT & Neil Rock!
 
Razor05's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,895
Default

Heh ok, I'm setting my 360 to standard now.
__________________

Panasonic TC-P65VT50
Sony KDL37XBR6
Panasonic TH-37PX50U
Cambridge Audio Azur 640R & 740C
Paradigm Studio 60's, 20's, CC-590 & Seismic 12
Panasonic DMP-BDT220 & DMP-BD35
Toshiba HD-XA2 & A35

Xbox One w Kinect GT: Razor59
PS4 GT: Razor_59
Steam ID: razor59pc

PC: Intel i7-4960x, G.Skill 2133 16GB, Asus Rampage IV Extreme Black, NVidia GTX 690 4GB, XSPC CPU & GPU WC'd, Samsung 850 Pro 256 & 512 SSD, Sound Blaster Zx, Dell U3011

MacBook Pro

- 400+
- 55
Razor05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 06:40 AM   #13
Freeeeeeedooooooom! LoL
 

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: I live in Britain in a county called Cheshire ( it's not a very interesting place).
Posts: 129
Default

Boy this thread is a little old now I know.

I thought all video games today were created at 0-255? And now after reading this it says they are created at 16-235? Is this really true?
__________________
"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible."

T.E.Lawrence

http://mypsn.eu.playstation.com/psn/...eBurton125.png
Ty burton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 01:55 PM   #14
I'm here for the lulz
 
Pinoy's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,019
Default

@TY: I'm sure the games are made in pc colorspace (0-255) but the output of them depends on the hardware.
__________________
SteamID: Zr0
Casting Wizard Jizz from The Cloud since '13
Is it still trolling if it's true?
Pinoy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 02:15 PM   #15
Freeeeeeedooooooom! LoL
 

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: I live in Britain in a county called Cheshire ( it's not a very interesting place).
Posts: 129
Default

Yes thank you. You've told me this before I know but one of the quotes above us said something a bit otherwise. I must have read it wrong.....again.
__________________
"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible."

T.E.Lawrence

http://mypsn.eu.playstation.com/psn/...eBurton125.png
Ty burton is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource > General Chit Chat > Gaming & Systems
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads to Xbox 360 Display Settings - HDMI Color and Reference Levels
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
First timer having some problems! LuckyYou Flat-Panel TVs 8 11-30-2007 06:03 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:40 PM.



Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2004 - 2008, High Def Forum