Kuro LX6090 Vs... everything else

resle · 07-10-2009, 11:58 AM

Greetings everyone,
this is my first message on the forum: I've subscribed hoping that someone here can shed some light on this HDTV that, when reviewed, seems to be the state of art in terms of video quality, but leaves me perplexed every time I see it live.

I am looking for an HDTV between 58 and 65 inches, and all the "experts" suggest me the Pioneer Kuro LX6090, again and again and again. Nonetheless, when I saw it in a store side to side with Sony Bravia X4500 LCD (55 inches) or even a rather anonymous 63 inches Samsung flat panel, it looked to me that the Kuro was inferior in terms of definition and crispness. This happened with full hd sources, and the thing got even worse with 720p and Standard Definition (this last one looking simply atrocious)

What can you tell me about my experience/perception, that seems to clash a lot with the pro reviews and the tech specs of the Kuro?

Thank you in advance,

- andrea
A.

**PFC5** · 07-10-2009, 01:11 PM

Welcome to the forum!

In a nutshell, the main reason is that your home is no where near as bright as these ultra bright stores, and I don't know of any home that uses Sodium Gas bulbs to light the house either. Environment plays a huge part in how good a display looks. This is why I recommend LCD in a very bright room where light cannot be controlled with blinds or dimming the lights, IF they watch most material in daytime. At night and in lower than very bright light levels is where plasma shines well above LCD in most of the important aspects of PQ.

A second reason is that very bright & over saturated colors is not accurate to the source material. Most seem to like "pop" that is not faithful to the source material until they realize it looks more cartoonish and then they look to get the most accurate & natural picture as they learn more. Some will always prefer that overly bright & overly saturated color and for them an LCD might be the best choice though. It is not like you cannot do that with a plasma too, but not to the same degree as you can with a LCD.

What I tell people is to look around their home and in their life and see if they see the same kind of "pop" they see on the HDTV they have or want. True PQ to the source material is what we (most) strive for, and plasma provides that. There is a reason that the Pioneer plasmas come out on top with any display they face in a pro shootout.

resle · 07-10-2009, 01:21 PM

Thanks a lot for your answer

What I noticed, though, wasn't really any popping or ... dimness. It was mostly a lack of detail, blurryness and/or badly scaled down picture as opposed to the crystaline crispness of the other displays. That's what puzzles me the most, expecially because crispness is what I crave the most.

Also, I wonder: the 9th generation Kuro is one year old. Does it still stand so strong over the latest HDTVs from other manufacturers?

**PFC5** · 07-10-2009, 01:42 PM

It you are seeing more "crispness" then they likely have the sharpness set very high and (other than Panasonic which puts neutral at 50%) it should be generally left at ZERO for sharpness, or else what you are getting is Edge Enhancement (EE) which adds a white (or black for white objects) lines around objects to make them appear overly sharp and unnatural. If that is what you like, then you can do the same thing with the Pioneer plasma as well, but i do not recommend it at least for me and others who want it to be faithful to the source. Another issue with having the sharpness too high is that you end up increasing the visibility of video noise & natural film grain above what is in the source. For HD video there isn't much noise which is WHY they usually display HD video instead of film.

Yes the Pioneer KUROs are still the top of the heap. They are more advanced and generally cost twice the money of competing plasmas before they decided to get out of the display business so now for the first time they are affordable to many more people while the supply lasts.

pappylap · 07-10-2009, 02:15 PM

Trust me the Pioneer Kuro line is the finest in video display manufacturing available. When properly set up and calibrated these displays produce the deepest blacks, hence, contrast ratios, the truest lifelike color reproduction, detail in dark areas that simply disappear in other panels…The pioneer line is also the only manufacturing line which is set up at 72hz and is the only panel that can accurately show film at 24fps at 3/3 pulldown (or exactly as the producer of the film intended it to be seen)… The Kuro line has always, and still is winning any and all shootouts with its competitors as best in show….I submit the set you are viewing at the display store is probably not hooked up correctly or simply has not been adjusted properly….Other than the dozens of professional reviews out there that recommend the KUROs as the best! I don’t know how else to convince you…

resle · 07-10-2009, 02:22 PM

Thanks again, Pappy and PFC! Well, my choice is easier now. But you know what's strange? The KURO 6090 here in Italy doesn't cost twice the other plasmas at all! Now you can get it for as low as €3,900

pappylap · 07-10-2009, 02:39 PM

This is a good in depth review that shows why the KURO line is so highly regarded in areas other than just supurb picture quality....I always shake my head and chuckle when I hear someone say "deeper blacks just aint worth the difference in price".........there is a lot more going on than just the black level...anyway I hope you enjoy your new KURO welcome the the forum, and the KURO family...

http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/re...n-Plasma-TV/p2

Loves2Watch · 07-10-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by resle

Thanks again, Pappy and PFC! Well, my choice is easier now. But you know what's strange? The KURO 6090 here in Italy doesn't cost twice the other plasmas at all! Now you can get it for as low as €3,900

Then I would say go for it because there is no finer consumer display.

resle · 07-10-2009, 03:41 PM

Thanks again everyone. A very last thing! Is the upscaling of 720p and SD pictures really that horrible, or was it just some .... misconfiguration of the set I saw in action?

SD tv was really really unwatchable. A standard DVD was really a lot worse than seeing it on an old 42 inches rear projection tv, and - finally - 720p (Sky HD) was... decent from a good distance, but seriously flawed (jagged picture, artifacts) when watched from close.

pappylap · 07-10-2009, 04:05 PM

SD unfortunatly is an eyesore on HD displays and at 60" it will be even worse...SD will never look as good as it did on the 480 scan line CRTs... the new sets just show too many of the flaws..........Here is a tip: calibrated one of your video settings for SD viewing, make it much softer with toned down color and a bit of red push.... This helps on my set.....

resle · 07-11-2009, 06:56 AM

Is there some way, perhaps, to shrink the picture a bit? If so, I suppose that's going to lead to burn in anyway... sigh.

I had a 43 inches rear projection tv which looked very nice on SD, even at just at a distance of 5 feet or so. I've compared my old 4/3 TV to a 60 inches 16/9 one and the height of the picture frame is substantially the same (using displaywars dot com)

So I wonder... maybe with the 4:3 SD signal "framed" in the middle of the screen, the result would be a bit better...

resle · 07-11-2009, 08:47 AM

Also... (last question, I promise!) what's the difference with the KRP serie exactly? I've heard rumors about being it better at SD among various others tweaks. I can get a KRP600 for around 4100 eur here.

pappylap · 07-11-2009, 10:44 PM

It is highly recommended that you should avoid letterbox and 4X3 viewing during the break-in period (200 hours) of your plasma display. This is to allow all of the phosphorous cells to age evenly....after break-in I would still suggest keeping 4X3 and letterbox viewing to a minimum...Also you will have an option to set grey bars instead of black that keeps the cells powered and aging at the same rate as the ones active within the picture area.good Luck enjoy your new KURO.

P.S. just takin' a guess, but I assume the KRP is the equivelant to the Pro Elites here in the States

07-10-2009, 11:58 AM	#1
resle How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 16	Kuro LX6090 Vs... everything else Greetings everyone, this is my first message on the forum: I've subscribed hoping that someone here can shed some light on this HDTV that, when reviewed, seems to be the state of art in terms of video quality, but leaves me perplexed every time I see it live. I am looking for an HDTV between 58 and 65 inches, and all the "experts" suggest me the Pioneer Kuro LX6090, again and again and again. Nonetheless, when I saw it in a store side to side with Sony Bravia X4500 LCD (55 inches) or even a rather anonymous 63 inches Samsung flat panel, it looked to me that the Kuro was inferior in terms of definition and crispness. This happened with full hd sources, and the thing got even worse with 720p and Standard Definition (this last one looking simply atrocious) What can you tell me about my experience/perception, that seems to clash a lot with the pro reviews and the tech specs of the Kuro? Thank you in advance, - andrea A.

07-10-2009, 01:11 PM	#2
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,326	Welcome to the forum! In a nutshell, the main reason is that your home is no where near as bright as these ultra bright stores, and I don't know of any home that uses Sodium Gas bulbs to light the house either. Environment plays a huge part in how good a display looks. This is why I recommend LCD in a very bright room where light cannot be controlled with blinds or dimming the lights, IF they watch most material in daytime. At night and in lower than very bright light levels is where plasma shines well above LCD in most of the important aspects of PQ. A second reason is that very bright & over saturated colors is not accurate to the source material. Most seem to like "pop" that is not faithful to the source material until they realize it looks more cartoonish and then they look to get the most accurate & natural picture as they learn more. Some will always prefer that overly bright & overly saturated color and for them an LCD might be the best choice though. It is not like you cannot do that with a plasma too, but not to the same degree as you can with a LCD. What I tell people is to look around their home and in their life and see if they see the same kind of "pop" they see on the HDTV they have or want. True PQ to the source material is what we (most) strive for, and plasma provides that. There is a reason that the Pioneer plasmas come out on top with any display they face in a pro shootout. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

07-10-2009, 01:42 PM	#4
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,326	It you are seeing more "crispness" then they likely have the sharpness set very high and (other than Panasonic which puts neutral at 50%) it should be generally left at ZERO for sharpness, or else what you are getting is Edge Enhancement (EE) which adds a white (or black for white objects) lines around objects to make them appear overly sharp and unnatural. If that is what you like, then you can do the same thing with the Pioneer plasma as well, but i do not recommend it at least for me and others who want it to be faithful to the source. Another issue with having the sharpness too high is that you end up increasing the visibility of video noise & natural film grain above what is in the source. For HD video there isn't much noise which is WHY they usually display HD video instead of film. Yes the Pioneer KUROs are still the top of the heap. They are more advanced and generally cost twice the money of competing plasmas before they decided to get out of the display business so now for the first time they are affordable to many more people while the supply lasts. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

07-10-2009, 02:15 PM	#5
pappylap Poopmaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Way over Yonder Age: 4 Posts: 2,866	Trust me the Pioneer Kuro line is the finest in video display manufacturing available. When properly set up and calibrated these displays produce the deepest blacks, hence, contrast ratios, the truest lifelike color reproduction, detail in dark areas that simply disappear in other panels…The pioneer line is also the only manufacturing line which is set up at 72hz and is the only panel that can accurately show film at 24fps at 3/3 pulldown (or exactly as the producer of the film intended it to be seen)… The Kuro line has always, and still is winning any and all shootouts with its competitors as best in show….I submit the set you are viewing at the display store is probably not hooked up correctly or simply has not been adjusted properly….Other than the dozens of professional reviews out there that recommend the KUROs as the best! I don’t know how else to convince you… __________________ Bar Wench...Where's my Waffle! You can checkout anytime you like but you can never leave.." 50"Pioneer KURO 111FD Pro Elite Pioneer BD320 Blu-ray player Pioneer VSX-919AH A/V Receiver 32" & 37" Olevia LCDs Sony DHG HDD 500 gig DVR Samsung DTBH260 Digital Tuner One Roll of Charmin Quilted Plus in each Bathroom...

07-10-2009, 02:39 PM	#7
pappylap Poopmaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Way over Yonder Age: 4 Posts: 2,866	This is a good in depth review that shows why the KURO line is so highly regarded in areas other than just supurb picture quality....I always shake my head and chuckle when I hear someone say "deeper blacks just aint worth the difference in price".........there is a lot more going on than just the black level...anyway I hope you enjoy your new KURO welcome the the forum, and the KURO family... http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/re...n-Plasma-TV/p2 __________________ Bar Wench...Where's my Waffle! You can checkout anytime you like but you can never leave.." 50"Pioneer KURO 111FD Pro Elite Pioneer BD320 Blu-ray player Pioneer VSX-919AH A/V Receiver 32" & 37" Olevia LCDs Sony DHG HDD 500 gig DVR Samsung DTBH260 Digital Tuner One Roll of Charmin Quilted Plus in each Bathroom...

07-10-2009, 01:21 PM	#3
resle How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 16	Thanks a lot for your answer What I noticed, though, wasn't really any popping or ... dimness. It was mostly a lack of detail, blurryness and/or badly scaled down picture as opposed to the crystaline crispness of the other displays. That's what puzzles me the most, expecially because crispness is what I crave the most. Also, I wonder: the 9th generation Kuro is one year old. Does it still stand so strong over the latest HDTVs from other manufacturers?

07-10-2009, 02:22 PM	#6
resle How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 16	Thanks again, Pappy and PFC! Well, my choice is easier now. But you know what's strange? The KURO 6090 here in Italy doesn't cost twice the other plasmas at all! Now you can get it for as low as €3,900

07-10-2009, 03:41 PM	#9
resle How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 16	Thanks again everyone. A very last thing! Is the upscaling of 720p and SD pictures really that horrible, or was it just some .... misconfiguration of the set I saw in action? SD tv was really really unwatchable. A standard DVD was really a lot worse than seeing it on an old 42 inches rear projection tv, and - finally - 720p (Sky HD) was... decent from a good distance, but seriously flawed (jagged picture, artifacts) when watched from close.

07-10-2009, 04:05 PM	#10
pappylap Poopmaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Way over Yonder Age: 4 Posts: 2,866	SD unfortunatly is an eyesore on HD displays and at 60" it will be even worse...SD will never look as good as it did on the 480 scan line CRTs... the new sets just show too many of the flaws..........Here is a tip: calibrated one of your video settings for SD viewing, make it much softer with toned down color and a bit of red push.... This helps on my set..... __________________ Bar Wench...Where's my Waffle! You can checkout anytime you like but you can never leave.." 50"Pioneer KURO 111FD Pro Elite Pioneer BD320 Blu-ray player Pioneer VSX-919AH A/V Receiver 32" & 37" Olevia LCDs Sony DHG HDD 500 gig DVR Samsung DTBH260 Digital Tuner One Roll of Charmin Quilted Plus in each Bathroom...

07-11-2009, 06:56 AM	#11
resle How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 16	Is there some way, perhaps, to shrink the picture a bit? If so, I suppose that's going to lead to burn in anyway... sigh. I had a 43 inches rear projection tv which looked very nice on SD, even at just at a distance of 5 feet or so. I've compared my old 4/3 TV to a 60 inches 16/9 one and the height of the picture frame is substantially the same (using displaywars dot com) So I wonder... maybe with the 4:3 SD signal "framed" in the middle of the screen, the result would be a bit better...

07-11-2009, 08:47 AM	#12
resle How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 16	Also... (last question, I promise!) what's the difference with the KRP serie exactly? I've heard rumors about being it better at SD among various others tweaks. I can get a KRP600 for around 4100 eur here.

07-11-2009, 10:44 PM	#13
pappylap Poopmaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Way over Yonder Age: 4 Posts: 2,866	It is highly recommended that you should avoid letterbox and 4X3 viewing during the break-in period (200 hours) of your plasma display. This is to allow all of the phosphorous cells to age evenly....after break-in I would still suggest keeping 4X3 and letterbox viewing to a minimum...Also you will have an option to set grey bars instead of black that keeps the cells powered and aging at the same rate as the ones active within the picture area.good Luck enjoy your new KURO. P.S. just takin' a guess, but I assume the KRP is the equivelant to the Pro Elites here in the States __________________ Bar Wench...Where's my Waffle! You can checkout anytime you like but you can never leave.." 50"Pioneer KURO 111FD Pro Elite Pioneer BD320 Blu-ray player Pioneer VSX-919AH A/V Receiver 32" & 37" Olevia LCDs Sony DHG HDD 500 gig DVR Samsung DTBH260 Digital Tuner One Roll of Charmin Quilted Plus in each Bathroom... Last edited by pappylap; 07-11-2009 at 10:48 PM.

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