Half Empty or half full? Why 768x1024 is HD

S0LE_SURVIV0R · 02-18-2006, 10:11 AM

I have been reading here that some people are calling 768x1024 EDTV?
I would have never bought this 768x1024 Plasma if it was an EDTV.
Yes I'm well aware of 1250 pixels across for the 720p signal. But remember that is an ATSC rating, there is no ATSC format of 768x1024, just as there is no 768x1366. I have monitors with both resolutions.
Those who fail to acknowledge that 768x1024 is HD, is cutting the ATSC 1250 across pixel count to fine. Speak in terms of practical purposes. People can also say that a 768x1199 is EDTV if they want to as well.
For all practical purposes, when you reach the 720p vertical threshold on a set, you are receiving HDTV, the 720p signal. EDTV is 480p. Plain and simple, Like what FOX used to broadcast before they went to 720p.
As my set top box manual says
1080i HDTV
720p HDTV
480p EDTV
So it has 1024 pixels per line and not 1250 BFD.....???? But the set also has 768 vertical, 48 more than 720.
The ED 480p signal (ATSC) has 704 pixels across. That is the real ED, if a set has 852 across, that is the set up scaling it. if a 480x852 set converts a 720p signal, it is EDTV because it is closer to the EDTV signal of 480x704.

If a 768px1024 set receives a 720p signal, it is HDTV, because the resolution neighbors the 720p x 1250 HDTV signal. So this isn't a case of,....... is the glass half empty or half full. It doesn't fall in the middle.

480px704 EDTV
240 vertical rows short of the ATSC rating of HDTV
704 pixels across .....546 pixels short of the ATSC rating of1250

A 480x852 monitor =EDTV
Vertical rows match 480
148 more pixels across. Up or down scales.
It neighbors the 480px704 EDTV signal

720p signal HDTV
720 vertical 1250 across.

A 768x1024 set.
48 more vertical rows of resolution.
226 less pixels per line across.

VERTICAL
Compare that to the ATSC ED rating of 480p vertical rows
288 more vertical
& 48 more up & down than their HD 720p rating.

Horizontal
Now using the 1250 pixels across ratio, ...compare 226 less pixels per line across less on the 768x1024 set to the
EDTV rating of 704 pixels across .....= 546 less

Using the HDTV ATSC 1250 pixel ratio,....546 is a greater number than 226

Using the EDTV ATSC rating of 704,....1024 pixels across is 320 more than ED but 226 less than 1250, HD.

with 1024 pixels across, a
226 (difference) is closer to 1250 (HD) compared to a
320 (difference) over 704 (ED)

& again, it's 48 more vertical than 720p (HD), round it off.

Half empty or half full?
You can see why 768x1024 is rated HDTV.
I would have never bought this set if I felt Panny was misleading or the set was not HDTV.

weberman · 02-18-2006, 01:47 PM

Most 42" and 43" HD plasmas have a 1024x768 resolution. They are all 16x9 displays with rectangular shaped pixels that allows the 4x3 1024x768 resolution to properly cover the 16x9 display area.

Any time you have a fixed pixel display, and it's being fed some other resolution than its native resolution, there will be scaling issues. How noticeable they are or how annoying they are dependes on how good a job the display does in handling the problem and/or how sensitive you are to the issue.

With these fixed pixel displays, you will always need scaling. Additionally, consider that there are many different things being transmitted today - 480i/p, 720p, and 1080i. Not many big screen TVs available today are able to match ALL of these resolutions.

sl7vk · 02-18-2006, 03:11 PM

Try telling good old Ward that you have HD tv.... It's like trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

In the end the only thing that matters is how well the image is displayed on the set.

FSTFUGGER · 02-18-2006, 04:30 PM

And, if you are happy with your TV's image quality. For some strange reason, most EDtv and smaller HDTV owners are extactic with the quality of their displays. I love mine! I wonder why? I guess all of our eyes must be bad, right sl7vk? Oh and ward, a TV that is advertised as HD Ready, doesnt mean that it is not an HD display, it means that the TV is capable of displaying HD resolutions but DOES NOT have a built in HD tuner. Like the commercial panasonic plasma displays. They have bigger than 42" plasmas that have a native resolution of better than 1024X768 AND are HD ready. Again, it means no built in HD tuner. You would need a STB or HD receiver to display HDTV with those TVs. Like I said in a previous post in another thread, I guess panasonics TH-42PX50U which has a native res of 1024X768 that is advertised by ALL retailers and panasonic as being an HDTV, not retarted HD ready is completely wrong. Its cut and dry here man. And there is only ONE tier of EDTV, thats 480p. And, my ED and sl7vk's ed plasma are the ONLY ED consumer plasmas that panasonic sells in the US, so how are they lower tier? They are the same plasmas with a different color frame and mine has the built in ATSC/QAM/NTSC tuners.

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs...s&displayTab=S

S0LE_SURVIV0R · 02-19-2006, 06:41 AM

My Set HD,
TH-37PX50U perfect in my bedroom.

these sets are the EDTV's
TH-42PA25U/P
42" Diagonal Plasma TV with Built-In NTSC Tuner

TH-42PD50U
42" Diagonal Plasma TV with Built-In ATSC/QAM/NTSC Tuners and Up to 4000:1 Contrast Ratio
$1,999.95

TH-42PM50U

I think I like the 1024x768 sets better, the upscaling DVD players can make a good trip from 704 across to 1024 and my set box box does a great job with upconverting channels like, USA, E, TBS, FOX REALITY, CNN, MSNBC, MTV, VH1 to 720p. I think because it is a lower hill to climb, asking it to go to 1024. Trying to upscale to 1250 or 1366 may be a bit too much. I have upscaling DVD players on both sets and if anyone takes my advice, this Plasma is great for up scaling 720p players. I won't be putting blue ray or HD DVD on this set because I can't get more than 1024 and again, the DVD player seems to be making the trip to 1024.
If you get a 720p DVD player, get a good one like Sony or Dennon. Through the HDMI it will look great.

klrfz1 · 02-19-2006, 09:20 AM

You have to consider also how people actually watch TV. I have gotten up off the recliner many times to get close enough to make out some tiny detail on the TV screen, usually during the 2nd or 3rd slow-motion replay. (Well, "sometimes" I just lean forward.) The higher resolution allows me to get even closer to the screen and see even more detail. Is it worth the extra cost? Yes, or I wouldn't be posting here. I don't care whether you call it edtv, hdtv, or zdtv, though.

Ward Cleaver · 02-20-2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Posted By Sole Survivor - "I would have never bought this 768x1024 Plasma if it was an EDTV..."

Here we have another case of someone who has bought a non-HDTV, and is now trying to justify his purchase after the fact.

FACT - No plasma tv under 50" is capable of displaying true HDTV. Now, you can argue and debate that as much as you want in an effort to placate yourself and make yourself feel better about your purchase...but, it is still a fact.

FACT - Some manufacturers attempt to promote TVs with a maximum resolution of 1024 x 768 pixels as "HDTV ready." This is incorrect. Although the total number of vertical pixels is greater than the 720 minimum necessary for HDTV, at an aspect ratio of 16:9 it would need 1280 pixels horizontally to display a 720-line HDTV picture.

Any plasma tv under 50", by virtue of their design, do not have the necessary pixels horizontally to display true HDTV.

Again, you can argue and debate that as much as you want in an attempt to make yourself feel better about your purchase...but, it is still a fact.
All the debating in the world won't change the fact that the necessary amont of horizontal pixels to display HDTV are not there on any plasma tv under 50"

Regards,
-Ward

S0LE_SURVIV0R · 02-20-2006, 08:20 AM

Then sue Panasonic for false advertising, see how far you get. Everybody knows if you have 720p you have HD. I'm not trying to justify anything after the fact. I know HD inside and out and I knew the set was 1024 well before I bought it. I still have 3 weeks to take it back for any reason if I want. You're the type of guy that would call 1080i x 1919 ED.

THE SET IS NOT ED......

Enhanced definition or ED is comparable to a DVD disc by featuring a 480p resolution, and is capable of displaying high definition signals at a lower resolution. High Definition or HD offers the best DTV picture with 720p, 1080i, and 1080p lines of resolution.

http://tv.about.com/od/televisionsets/a/HDTVbasics.htm
Enhanced Definition TV (EDTV): 480p
480p is an Enhanced Definition TV (EDTV) standard displayed using progressive scanning at a 640 wide by 480 high pixel resolution.

Interlace and Progressive Scanning Explained:

Prior to Enhanced Definition TV (EDTV) and High Definition TV (HDTV) video signals were all displayed in 480i. 480i is displayed with interlaced scanning at a 640 wide by 480 high pixel resolution. Based on 480i’s resolution there are 480 horizontal lines consisting of 640 pixels each. These 480 lines are called "Horizontal Scan Lines" and each one represents a path for a TV or monitor to draw a picture or single frame of video. Interlaced Scanning is a technique used to split each frame of video into two smaller parts called "fields". Each field of video in an Interlaced Scanning signal consists of either all the odd or all the even numbered horizontal scan lines for a single frame of video. Interlaced scanning is approximately 30 frames of video per second, which translates to 60 "fields" or half frames of video per second.

http://games.teamxbox.com/features/xbox_edtv_480p.php

You live in a world by yourself.

FSTFUGGER · 02-20-2006, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ward Cleaver

FACT - Some manufacturers attempt to promote TVs with a maximum resolution of 1024 x 768 pixels as "HDTV ready."

YOU ARE WRONG! HD READY means NO built in HD tuner. PROVE to me that Im wrong, you just keep saying that this is a fact with NO PROOF!

sl7vk · 02-20-2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FSTFUGGER

YOU ARE WRONG! HD READY means NO built in HD tuner. PROVE to me that Im wrong, you just keep saying that this is a fact with NO PROOF!

You are right.... And again Ward continues to reign as the King of Condescending. Bravo!

FSTFUGGER · 02-20-2006, 09:29 AM

Heres my PROOF!

Quote:

HDTV or HD-Ready

During the course of shopping for a digital television, the labels HDTV and HD-Ready maybe of some confusion to the consumer. This HDTV designation signifies that the set has an internal ATSC tuner/decoder, as well as meeting the widescreen specifications often required to be considered a true HDTV. The sets will meet the requirement to display in 1080i/720p, although it is often the former only. Very few digital TVs on the market will display in native 720p. The lack of an ATSC tuner/decoder is not necessarily a negative as many set-top decoders are now available with more features than those included in the integrated HDTV. The separate purchase of a HD-Ready TV and the external set-top-box often provides flexibility to the consumer to choose one that offers added features such as satellite receiver and the proper output signal. Most HD-Ready sets will include a high-band component (Y-Pb-Pr) DTV input, although few on the market also offers RGB for this purpose. There have been much debate between manufacturers as to the aspect ratio specifications of the HDTV designation, and it is now recognized that a true HD set will provide widescreen 16:9 aspect screen

http://www.digitalconnection.com/FAQ/HDTV_6.asp

FSTFUGGER · 02-20-2006, 09:33 AM

More proof Ward.

Quote:

HD Ready -- Refers to a TV set that accepts baseband video in one or more of the high definition formats, displays a picture using one or more of the high definition video formats, but which does not have a tuner (channel selector) to receive HDTV signals off the air or from a cable system.

http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/vidglos4.htm

FSTFUGGER · 02-20-2006, 09:38 AM

Oh my god! Ward, could this be a 50" plasma with NO built in tuner that has a native resolution of 1280x768? OH no, its also called "HD READY"! Better put in a call to Pioneer to let them now their website is misleading.

http://www.pioneer.de/eur/product_de...onomy_id=62-63

S0LE_SURVIV0R · 02-20-2006, 09:53 AM

If someone feels they are right about something I can appreciate that. But it's him against the world. He comes up with no justification to call any 720p /768p set ED. When the ATSC came up with the specs fixed panel resolutions where no where in sight. .
Personally I'm surprised the moderators of this site don't do something. To have an opinion on a set or it's performance is one thing, but to tell people that a 720p set is not HD is false and people come to these sites for information.

S0LE_SURVIV0R · 02-20-2006, 10:05 AM

According to Panasonic, model numbers with PX are HD.

02-18-2006, 10:11 AM	#1
S0LE_SURVIV0R Watch this in HD! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Boston Age: 45 Posts: 287	Half Empty or half full? Why 768x1024 is HD I have been reading here that some people are calling 768x1024 EDTV? I would have never bought this 768x1024 Plasma if it was an EDTV. Yes I'm well aware of 1250 pixels across for the 720p signal. But remember that is an ATSC rating, there is no ATSC format of 768x1024, just as there is no 768x1366. I have monitors with both resolutions. Those who fail to acknowledge that 768x1024 is HD, is cutting the ATSC 1250 across pixel count to fine. Speak in terms of practical purposes. People can also say that a 768x1199 is EDTV if they want to as well. For all practical purposes, when you reach the 720p vertical threshold on a set, you are receiving HDTV, the 720p signal. EDTV is 480p. Plain and simple, Like what FOX used to broadcast before they went to 720p. As my set top box manual says 1080i HDTV 720p HDTV 480p EDTV So it has 1024 pixels per line and not 1250 BFD.....???? But the set also has 768 vertical, 48 more than 720. The ED 480p signal (ATSC) has 704 pixels across. That is the real ED, if a set has 852 across, that is the set up scaling it. if a 480x852 set converts a 720p signal, it is EDTV because it is closer to the EDTV signal of 480x704. If a 768px1024 set receives a 720p signal, it is HDTV, because the resolution neighbors the 720p x 1250 HDTV signal. So this isn't a case of,....... is the glass half empty or half full. It doesn't fall in the middle. 480px704 EDTV 240 vertical rows short of the ATSC rating of HDTV 704 pixels across .....546 pixels short of the ATSC rating of1250 A 480x852 monitor =EDTV Vertical rows match 480 148 more pixels across. Up or down scales. It neighbors the 480px704 EDTV signal 720p signal HDTV 720 vertical 1250 across. A 768x1024 set. 48 more vertical rows of resolution. 226 less pixels per line across. VERTICAL Compare that to the ATSC ED rating of 480p vertical rows 288 more vertical & 48 more up & down than their HD 720p rating. Horizontal Now using the 1250 pixels across ratio, ...compare 226 less pixels per line across less on the 768x1024 set to the EDTV rating of 704 pixels across .....= 546 less Using the HDTV ATSC 1250 pixel ratio,....546 is a greater number than 226 Using the EDTV ATSC rating of 704,....1024 pixels across is 320 more than ED but 226 less than 1250, HD. with 1024 pixels across, a 226 (difference) is closer to 1250 (HD) compared to a 320 (difference) over 704 (ED) & again, it's 48 more vertical than 720p (HD), round it off. Half empty or half full? You can see why 768x1024 is rated HDTV. I would have never bought this set if I felt Panny was misleading or the set was not HDTV. __________________ Sony 40 LCD flat panel XBR & Panasonic 37 768p Plasma HD TIVO The human eye can barely perceive a 1366x768 resolution 10 feet away from a 50 inch see http://proav.pubdyn.com/2005_January...rallaxview.htm 720p Fastest & Best Temporal Resolution Sony "The world's greatest high definition television" Last edited by S0LE_SURVIV0R; 02-18-2006 at 10:41 AM.

02-18-2006, 01:47 PM	#2
weberman ONLY HI-DEF Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 137	Scaling and Whats in a name. Most 42" and 43" HD plasmas have a 1024x768 resolution. They are all 16x9 displays with rectangular shaped pixels that allows the 4x3 1024x768 resolution to properly cover the 16x9 display area. Any time you have a fixed pixel display, and it's being fed some other resolution than its native resolution, there will be scaling issues. How noticeable they are or how annoying they are dependes on how good a job the display does in handling the problem and/or how sensitive you are to the issue. With these fixed pixel displays, you will always need scaling. Additionally, consider that there are many different things being transmitted today - 480i/p, 720p, and 1080i. Not many big screen TVs available today are able to match ALL of these resolutions.

02-18-2006, 03:11 PM	#3
sl7vk Panasonic Plasma Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 603	Try telling good old Ward that you have HD tv.... It's like trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip. In the end the only thing that matters is how well the image is displayed on the set. __________________ "Their LCD tv's are also assembled in the Netherlands...Belgium to be exact." -Ward Cleaver

02-18-2006, 04:30 PM	#4
FSTFUGGER Panasonic "ED" Plasma! Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 94	And, if you are happy with your TV's image quality. For some strange reason, most EDtv and smaller HDTV owners are extactic with the quality of their displays. I love mine! I wonder why? I guess all of our eyes must be bad, right sl7vk? Oh and ward, a TV that is advertised as HD Ready, doesnt mean that it is not an HD display, it means that the TV is capable of displaying HD resolutions but DOES NOT have a built in HD tuner. Like the commercial panasonic plasma displays. They have bigger than 42" plasmas that have a native resolution of better than 1024X768 AND are HD ready. Again, it means no built in HD tuner. You would need a STB or HD receiver to display HDTV with those TVs. Like I said in a previous post in another thread, I guess panasonics TH-42PX50U which has a native res of 1024X768 that is advertised by ALL retailers and panasonic as being an HDTV, not retarted HD ready is completely wrong. Its cut and dry here man. And there is only ONE tier of EDTV, thats 480p. And, my ED and sl7vk's ed plasma are the ONLY ED consumer plasmas that panasonic sells in the US, so how are they lower tier? They are the same plasmas with a different color frame and mine has the built in ATSC/QAM/NTSC tuners. http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs...s&displayTab=S __________________ Panasonic TH-42PD50U Plasma Yamaha YHT-360 Home Theater Xbox 360 Premium Last edited by FSTFUGGER; 02-18-2006 at 04:56 PM.

02-19-2006, 06:41 AM	#5
S0LE_SURVIV0R Watch this in HD! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Boston Age: 45 Posts: 287	My Set HD, TH-37PX50U perfect in my bedroom. these sets are the EDTV's TH-42PA25U/P 42" Diagonal Plasma TV with Built-In NTSC Tuner TH-42PD50U 42" Diagonal Plasma TV with Built-In ATSC/QAM/NTSC Tuners and Up to 4000:1 Contrast Ratio $1,999.95 TH-42PM50U I think I like the 1024x768 sets better, the upscaling DVD players can make a good trip from 704 across to 1024 and my set box box does a great job with upconverting channels like, USA, E, TBS, FOX REALITY, CNN, MSNBC, MTV, VH1 to 720p. I think because it is a lower hill to climb, asking it to go to 1024. Trying to upscale to 1250 or 1366 may be a bit too much. I have upscaling DVD players on both sets and if anyone takes my advice, this Plasma is great for up scaling 720p players. I won't be putting blue ray or HD DVD on this set because I can't get more than 1024 and again, the DVD player seems to be making the trip to 1024. If you get a 720p DVD player, get a good one like Sony or Dennon. Through the HDMI it will look great. __________________ Sony 40 LCD flat panel XBR & Panasonic 37 768p Plasma HD TIVO The human eye can barely perceive a 1366x768 resolution 10 feet away from a 50 inch see http://proav.pubdyn.com/2005_January...rallaxview.htm 720p Fastest & Best Temporal Resolution Sony "The world's greatest high definition television" Last edited by S0LE_SURVIV0R; 02-19-2006 at 06:53 AM.

02-19-2006, 09:20 AM	#6
klrfz1 3D hi def. When? Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 42	You have to consider also how people actually watch TV. I have gotten up off the recliner many times to get close enough to make out some tiny detail on the TV screen, usually during the 2nd or 3rd slow-motion replay. (Well, "sometimes" I just lean forward.) The higher resolution allows me to get even closer to the screen and see even more detail. Is it worth the extra cost? Yes, or I wouldn't be posting here. I don't care whether you call it edtv, hdtv, or zdtv, though.

02-20-2006, 08:20 AM	#8
S0LE_SURVIV0R Watch this in HD! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Boston Age: 45 Posts: 287	Then sue Panasonic for false advertising, see how far you get. Everybody knows if you have 720p you have HD. I'm not trying to justify anything after the fact. I know HD inside and out and I knew the set was 1024 well before I bought it. I still have 3 weeks to take it back for any reason if I want. You're the type of guy that would call 1080i x 1919 ED. THE SET IS NOT ED...... Enhanced definition or ED is comparable to a DVD disc by featuring a 480p resolution, and is capable of displaying high definition signals at a lower resolution. High Definition or HD offers the best DTV picture with 720p, 1080i, and 1080p lines of resolution. http://tv.about.com/od/televisionsets/a/HDTVbasics.htm Enhanced Definition TV (EDTV): 480p 480p is an Enhanced Definition TV (EDTV) standard displayed using progressive scanning at a 640 wide by 480 high pixel resolution. Interlace and Progressive Scanning Explained: Prior to Enhanced Definition TV (EDTV) and High Definition TV (HDTV) video signals were all displayed in 480i. 480i is displayed with interlaced scanning at a 640 wide by 480 high pixel resolution. Based on 480i’s resolution there are 480 horizontal lines consisting of 640 pixels each. These 480 lines are called "Horizontal Scan Lines" and each one represents a path for a TV or monitor to draw a picture or single frame of video. Interlaced Scanning is a technique used to split each frame of video into two smaller parts called "fields". Each field of video in an Interlaced Scanning signal consists of either all the odd or all the even numbered horizontal scan lines for a single frame of video. Interlaced scanning is approximately 30 frames of video per second, which translates to 60 "fields" or half frames of video per second. http://games.teamxbox.com/features/xbox_edtv_480p.php You live in a world by yourself. __________________ Sony 40 LCD flat panel XBR & Panasonic 37 768p Plasma HD TIVO The human eye can barely perceive a 1366x768 resolution 10 feet away from a 50 inch see http://proav.pubdyn.com/2005_January...rallaxview.htm 720p Fastest & Best Temporal Resolution Sony "The world's greatest high definition television" Last edited by S0LE_SURVIV0R; 02-20-2006 at 08:48 AM.

02-20-2006, 09:38 AM	#13
FSTFUGGER Panasonic "ED" Plasma! Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 94	Oh my god! Ward, could this be a 50" plasma with NO built in tuner that has a native resolution of 1280x768? OH no, its also called "HD READY"! Better put in a call to Pioneer to let them now their website is misleading. http://www.pioneer.de/eur/product_de...onomy_id=62-63 __________________ Panasonic TH-42PD50U Plasma Yamaha YHT-360 Home Theater Xbox 360 Premium

02-20-2006, 09:53 AM	#14
S0LE_SURVIV0R Watch this in HD! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Boston Age: 45 Posts: 287	If someone feels they are right about something I can appreciate that. But it's him against the world. He comes up with no justification to call any 720p /768p set ED. When the ATSC came up with the specs fixed panel resolutions where no where in sight. . Personally I'm surprised the moderators of this site don't do something. To have an opinion on a set or it's performance is one thing, but to tell people that a 720p set is not HD is false and people come to these sites for information. __________________ Sony 40 LCD flat panel XBR & Panasonic 37 768p Plasma HD TIVO The human eye can barely perceive a 1366x768 resolution 10 feet away from a 50 inch see http://proav.pubdyn.com/2005_January...rallaxview.htm 720p Fastest & Best Temporal Resolution Sony "The world's greatest high definition television" Last edited by S0LE_SURVIV0R; 02-20-2006 at 10:23 AM.

02-20-2006, 10:05 AM	#15
S0LE_SURVIV0R Watch this in HD! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Boston Age: 45 Posts: 287	According to Panasonic, model numbers with PX are HD. __________________ Sony 40 LCD flat panel XBR & Panasonic 37 768p Plasma HD TIVO The human eye can barely perceive a 1366x768 resolution 10 feet away from a 50 inch see http://proav.pubdyn.com/2005_January...rallaxview.htm 720p Fastest & Best Temporal Resolution Sony "The world's greatest high definition television"