Half Empty or half full? Why 768x1024 is HD

weberman · 02-20-2006, 09:32 PM

The following is a composite of research into HDTV.

High Definition TV = 1080i

HD-DVD and BLU-RAY are both 1920X1080 (If you don't believe this look up the specs)

Technically speaking, both HD-DVD and and Blu-Ray would have enough capacity to hold the same ultra-high quality movies. (With stunning 1920x1080 resolution, a lot of people will have to upgrade their TV sets too see it, even recently purchased ones.)

What is 1080? Why does this number matter?

There is a world of new terms and stretched out images and slick sales talkers out there, ready to "yes" you into buying something. Since you have more questions than they can answer, you may well find that you are on your own. Lets break it down to the useful facts and make sure you know why before you buy, and get the most out if it when you do.

The most basic stuff:
You need to know resolution, or how many pixels make the picture. Each pixel is a group of red, green, blue elements.

The most basic stuff:

1080 lines of resolution means 1080 rows of pixels from top to bottom of your screen with 1920 pixels per line across the screen from left to right.

HDTV is 1920 wide by 1080 high pixels in resolution.

Resolution: The "Other" HD is 720 lines

Basically, 720 line or 720p was created as an interim HD format and has the benefit of being 2 times faster in frames per second displayed. It is 1280 by 720 pixels and according to industry specs is considered HD. Typically a TV built (designed years ago) for this resolution is marketed with a 1366 by 768 display, and internal scaling up-samples the 720 lines to 768 lines to fill the screen. There are also 852 x 480 EDTV's that are big and wide and look like they may be high definition... but they are not.

Native Resolution: What is Being Sold?

Although it is perfectly legal to say that a TV is "HDTV" or "HD-Ready" when it has less than 1080 lines of resolution, It really is the low-end of HD TV.

I'm sorry, but 768 (720) HD is NOT the best HDTV.
Typically the larger Plasma TV's priced at $2500 on up are like this. They are easy to want beacuse they look great in the store, but they will NEVER display 1080 in all its pristine glory, which is the reason you wanted HDTV in the first place.

If you want truely stunning crisp HD - you need 1080 resolution.

Sellers are begining to know this too, and may well leave the native screen resolution out of the Specs they list. If you see NO resolution specs listed, then that is a clue to pass on it. If the display can do 1080i/1080p then they will surely list that.
Buyer Beware ::: Many of these TV sets will accept a 1080i input signal and then display it ok at 1366 x 768 which is 1/2 the number of pixels. WHY PAY HUGE $$ and get HALF the resolution?

Interlaced vs Progressive scan

This one annoys me, since the research you will get elsewhere indicates Interlaced content is not so good. WRONG. I will belabor the details later, but if you have a decent DVR/set top and or LCD HDTV, the picture you get to see is not interlaced anyhow. Most of the time each frame of an HDTV image is buffered by the system to make a full screen 30 times per second regardless of how it arrives to your system. The de-interlacing firmware that handles building the image is what matters, and most are so good you cannot see any problems. The Best in my humble opinion has the name "Faroudja". Propperly handled, interlaced source comes out rather like Film with a nice eye-pleasing motion blur where things move fast.

Bottom Line
The right stuff is a NATIVE RESOLUTION 1080i / 1080p system with Faroudja de-interlacing and filtering. Dont settle for anything else and you will be very happy with what you got.

... and you want the HDCP (DVI) in there since it is the right protection mode that your future HD-DVD and broadcast will use. TV's without HDCP will see junk when it goes into use.

The biggest problems arise in the system as a whole and that is where the details start to matter. When selecting an HD Monitor, resolution choices will muddy the water on selections. There can be a big difference between what an HD Monitor is and what an HDTV is. The practical reality is that you want a TV that does all resolutions without a problem, technology options for managing that make the difference in what to buy, what to expect from it and how to use it. It is currently a Buyer Beware market.

Ward Cleaver · 02-20-2006, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Im still waiting for some proof

The proof is mathematics, as stated above...and relatively basic mathematics at that.

Let me be very basic here.

If we are talking about a 720P HDTV signal, you have a vertical resolution of 720 pixels and an aspect ratio of 16:9.

Knowing those two numbers, you can easily figure out what the horizontal resolution must be using a simple mathematical formula.

720 multiplied by 16 and then divided by 9 equals...1280.

So, the horizontal resolution of a 720P HDTV signal in a 16:9 ratio must be 1280.

1024 x 720 in an aspect ratio of 16:9 is not HDTV.

Remember, HDTV must be in a 16:9 aspect ratio.

You can't argue with mathematics.
I don't know why it is so hard for a few of you to understand.
It is basic mathematics.

Not only is 1024 x 720 in an aspect ratio of 16:9 not HDTV...it cannot be HDTV. The laws of mathematics and physics will not allow it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The same formula can be applied to a 1080i signal to determine the horizontal resolution.

1080 multiplied by 16 and then divided by 9 equals...1920.

Regards,
-Ward

FSTFUGGER · 02-20-2006, 09:40 PM

All math aside, YOU and everyother joe on this forum would not be able to tell the difference between 1280x720 and 1024x768. If you say you can, you are a liar. Thats the bottom line. Thread closed.

Regards.

Ward Cleaver · 02-20-2006, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Posted By FstFugger - "YOU and everyother joe on this forum would not be able to tell the difference between 1280x720 and 1024x768...Thats the bottom line."

No, the bottom line is that 1024 x 768 is not HDTV and 1280 x 720 is HDTV.

The subject and title of this thread implies that 1024 x 768 is HDTV.

The laws of mathematics disprove that.

...and that's the end of the thread.

Regards,
-Ward

crypticstatic · 02-20-2006, 09:58 PM

Lets just say for the sake of this argument that 1024x768 isnt HD but a higher resolution "technically" is but if you cant tell the difference in picture quality, then what does it matter?

I viewed a toshiba 50inch and a 42inch plasma side by side and could NOT tell the difference in picture quality. They looked identical, the only difference was the 50inch had 8inches more real estate.

Honestly, the human eye cannot distinguish between 1280x720 and 1024x768. You can label it anything you want but the fact of the matter is the PQ is the same to our eyes! So what does it matter? There's even strong debate of wether the human eye will be able to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p!

FSTFUGGER · 02-20-2006, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ward Cleaver

No, the bottom line is that 1024 x 768 is not HDTV and 1280 x 720 is HDTV.

The subject and title of this thread implies that 1024 x 768 is HDTV.

The laws of mathematics disprove that.

...and that's the end of the thread.

Regards,
-Ward

At this point, you can't tell the difference anyway, so WHO CARES?? Let it go Ward! All your simple math and your wonderful grammer means squat if you can't tell the difference. If you bought your TV because it has 1280x720 resolution over the 1024x768 because its classified as TRUE-HD, I feel sorry for you. Atleast I bought my ED because I saw the quality that was there over the $1K more HD version, and it wasn't worth the extra money. I dont spend money when I dont need to, but that doesnt mean I dont have the $$. As a matter of fact, this ED I have will be going on the wall in my bedroom when the next gen 50" panny plasmas come out, and I will replace it with that.

Ward Cleaver · 02-20-2006, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Posted By FstFugger - "WHO CARES"

Let me again point out to you that the subject and premise of this thread is "Why 768 x 1024 Is HD."

Well, I just explained to you why it is not.
In fact, I proved with mathematics why it is not.

So, what is your reaction?
Do you say, "Hey, okay...I stand corrected. I just learned something."

No. You instead become frustrated and bellow out "who cares," as you proceed to piss, whine and moan about the subjective criteria involved in viewing your "Non-HDTV" set.

Regards,
-Ward

FSTFUGGER · 02-20-2006, 10:16 PM

Wow, man give it up. Again, we dont care about you or your simpleton math skills. Tell me you can tell a difference between the two resolutions in question. You can't. Therefore, your (wrong) argument is meaningless. You are the kind of person that will pay the most for a product because you read online that it is the best. And if you read it on a board like this, you'd be more wrong then you already are. Seriously, let it go. You are becomming boarderline obsessive.

crypticstatic · 02-20-2006, 10:31 PM

I'm I not correct in belieiving that what makes a TV a HDTV is that it can display a MINIMUM of 720 lines?

and that is why all manufacturers can market all of thier 42 inch plasmas as HDTV's cuz in fact they meet the minimum of having the 720 lines? If not, then there should be a MASSIVE class action lawsuit suing all the of plasma manufactueres for false advertising....

at least for me, based on what I previously stated i wouldnt recommend anyone paying the extra $$$ on getting a 50inch or bigger plasma on resolution alone... If it's the size of the screen your looking for then by all means but if anyone is looking to spend the extra $$$ thinking they will get better PQ out of the 50 inch as opposed to the 42 inch than that would be highly misleading imo

Ward Cleaver · 02-20-2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Posted By Cryptic Static - "I'm I not correct in belieiving that what makes a TV a HDTV is that it can display a MINIMUM of 720 lines?"

...and for an HDTV signal to maintain a native 16:9 aspect ratio that matches the widescreen HDTV format, it needs to have 16 pixels on each line for every 9 lines of picture in the frame.

That brings us back to the mathematical formula I stated above...720 multiplied by 16 and then divided by 9 equals...1280.

There is no way around it.

Regards,
-Ward

FSTFUGGER · 02-20-2006, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ward Cleaver

There is no way around it.

Regards,
-Ward

Except for the pesky fact that 42" 1024x768 plasmas can display 1280x720 resolutions (down-scaled ofcourse), and you would never be able to tell the difference. No way around that either. Buy what you can afford and what looks best to you. Leave the tech babble to the gents here in the pissing contest so they can walk away with wet shoes.

Ward Cleaver · 02-20-2006, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Posted By FstFugger - "Except for the pesky fact that 42" 1024x768 plasmas can display 1280x720 resolutions (down-scaled ofcourse), and you would never be able to tell the difference."

All your BS and jabberwocky won't change the mathematical fact that a true HD display is 1280 x 720...not 1024 x 768.

You're beating a dead horse.
Get over it and accept the fact that you have a Non-HDTV.

Regards,
-Ward

FSTFUGGER · 02-20-2006, 11:29 PM

I knew that before I bought it, but it didnt matter because I couldn't tell a difference between the ED and the HD version. Thats why I have and EDTV and I am damn proud of it. All I know for sure is that its worlds better than SD and thats it. Math shmath, its up to your eyes. Get over yourself Mr. High and mighty. Nobody cares anymore.

crypticstatic · 02-21-2006, 12:10 AM

ward you are a HILARIOUS guy, I wet back and read some of your other posts and I damned near rolled off my couch laughing.... I say that in a friendly kind of way of course. Your posts just crack me up with you being stuck on the whole pixel issue.. lmao...

It reminds me of two old ladies arguing over thread count in bathroom towels and which one "looks" better because one old bag has 10 percent more thread count than the other....

anyhoo... the ONLY thing that qualifies a HDTV is that 720 line minimum, so to say that a 42inch 1024x768 is not a HDTV is simply wrong by todays standards.. The TV is either HDTV or it isnt.. it just seems silly to me... especially when a person can't tell the differnece in PQ! thats the real kicker....

If I look in my owners manual is CLEARLY states my plasma as being an HDTV set... It even says it on the damn tv itself.... am I just out right being lied to??

S0LE_SURVIV0R · 02-21-2006, 05:55 AM

Ward,
You just showed everyone the kind of guy you are.
See if anybody respects your posts. Like a person said, I provided over 15 links. To everyone who read this thread, see how they interpret 1024x768 now, and again, how they view you.

02-20-2006, 09:32 PM	#61
weberman ONLY HI-DEF Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 137	Let the Flames Begin The following is a composite of research into HDTV. High Definition TV = 1080i HD-DVD and BLU-RAY are both 1920X1080 (If you don't believe this look up the specs) Technically speaking, both HD-DVD and and Blu-Ray would have enough capacity to hold the same ultra-high quality movies. (With stunning 1920x1080 resolution, a lot of people will have to upgrade their TV sets too see it, even recently purchased ones.) What is 1080? Why does this number matter? There is a world of new terms and stretched out images and slick sales talkers out there, ready to "yes" you into buying something. Since you have more questions than they can answer, you may well find that you are on your own. Lets break it down to the useful facts and make sure you know why before you buy, and get the most out if it when you do. The most basic stuff: You need to know resolution, or how many pixels make the picture. Each pixel is a group of red, green, blue elements. The most basic stuff: 1080 lines of resolution means 1080 rows of pixels from top to bottom of your screen with 1920 pixels per line across the screen from left to right. HDTV is 1920 wide by 1080 high pixels in resolution. Resolution: The "Other" HD is 720 lines Basically, 720 line or 720p was created as an interim HD format and has the benefit of being 2 times faster in frames per second displayed. It is 1280 by 720 pixels and according to industry specs is considered HD. Typically a TV built (designed years ago) for this resolution is marketed with a 1366 by 768 display, and internal scaling up-samples the 720 lines to 768 lines to fill the screen. There are also 852 x 480 EDTV's that are big and wide and look like they may be high definition... but they are not. Native Resolution: What is Being Sold? Although it is perfectly legal to say that a TV is "HDTV" or "HD-Ready" when it has less than 1080 lines of resolution, It really is the low-end of HD TV. I'm sorry, but 768 (720) HD is NOT the best HDTV. Typically the larger Plasma TV's priced at $2500 on up are like this. They are easy to want beacuse they look great in the store, but they will NEVER display 1080 in all its pristine glory, which is the reason you wanted HDTV in the first place. If you want truely stunning crisp HD - you need 1080 resolution. Sellers are begining to know this too, and may well leave the native screen resolution out of the Specs they list. If you see NO resolution specs listed, then that is a clue to pass on it. If the display can do 1080i/1080p then they will surely list that. Buyer Beware ::: Many of these TV sets will accept a 1080i input signal and then display it ok at 1366 x 768 which is 1/2 the number of pixels. WHY PAY HUGE $$ and get HALF the resolution? Interlaced vs Progressive scan This one annoys me, since the research you will get elsewhere indicates Interlaced content is not so good. WRONG. I will belabor the details later, but if you have a decent DVR/set top and or LCD HDTV, the picture you get to see is not interlaced anyhow. Most of the time each frame of an HDTV image is buffered by the system to make a full screen 30 times per second regardless of how it arrives to your system. The de-interlacing firmware that handles building the image is what matters, and most are so good you cannot see any problems. The Best in my humble opinion has the name "Faroudja". Propperly handled, interlaced source comes out rather like Film with a nice eye-pleasing motion blur where things move fast. Bottom Line The right stuff is a NATIVE RESOLUTION 1080i / 1080p system with Faroudja de-interlacing and filtering. Dont settle for anything else and you will be very happy with what you got. ... and you want the HDCP (DVI) in there since it is the right protection mode that your future HD-DVD and broadcast will use. TV's without HDCP will see junk when it goes into use. The biggest problems arise in the system as a whole and that is where the details start to matter. When selecting an HD Monitor, resolution choices will muddy the water on selections. There can be a big difference between what an HD Monitor is and what an HDTV is. The practical reality is that you want a TV that does all resolutions without a problem, technology options for managing that make the difference in what to buy, what to expect from it and how to use it. It is currently a Buyer Beware market.

02-20-2006, 09:40 PM	#63
FSTFUGGER Panasonic "ED" Plasma! Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 94	All math aside, YOU and everyother joe on this forum would not be able to tell the difference between 1280x720 and 1024x768. If you say you can, you are a liar. Thats the bottom line. Thread closed. Regards. __________________ Panasonic TH-42PD50U Plasma Yamaha YHT-360 Home Theater Xbox 360 Premium

02-20-2006, 10:16 PM	#68
FSTFUGGER Panasonic "ED" Plasma! Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 94	Wow, man give it up. Again, we dont care about you or your simpleton math skills. Tell me you can tell a difference between the two resolutions in question. You can't. Therefore, your (wrong) argument is meaningless. You are the kind of person that will pay the most for a product because you read online that it is the best. And if you read it on a board like this, you'd be more wrong then you already are. Seriously, let it go. You are becomming boarderline obsessive. __________________ Panasonic TH-42PD50U Plasma Yamaha YHT-360 Home Theater Xbox 360 Premium

02-20-2006, 10:31 PM	#69
crypticstatic How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 28	I'm I not correct in belieiving that what makes a TV a HDTV is that it can display a MINIMUM of 720 lines? and that is why all manufacturers can market all of thier 42 inch plasmas as HDTV's cuz in fact they meet the minimum of having the 720 lines? If not, then there should be a MASSIVE class action lawsuit suing all the of plasma manufactueres for false advertising.... at least for me, based on what I previously stated i wouldnt recommend anyone paying the extra $$$ on getting a 50inch or bigger plasma on resolution alone... If it's the size of the screen your looking for then by all means but if anyone is looking to spend the extra $$$ thinking they will get better PQ out of the 50 inch as opposed to the 42 inch than that would be highly misleading imo Last edited by crypticstatic; 02-20-2006 at 10:41 PM.

02-20-2006, 11:29 PM	#73
FSTFUGGER Panasonic "ED" Plasma! Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 94	I knew that before I bought it, but it didnt matter because I couldn't tell a difference between the ED and the HD version. Thats why I have and EDTV and I am damn proud of it. All I know for sure is that its worlds better than SD and thats it. Math shmath, its up to your eyes. Get over yourself Mr. High and mighty. Nobody cares anymore. __________________ Panasonic TH-42PD50U Plasma Yamaha YHT-360 Home Theater Xbox 360 Premium

02-20-2006, 09:58 PM	#65
crypticstatic How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 28	Lets just say for the sake of this argument that 1024x768 isnt HD but a higher resolution "technically" is but if you cant tell the difference in picture quality, then what does it matter? I viewed a toshiba 50inch and a 42inch plasma side by side and could NOT tell the difference in picture quality. They looked identical, the only difference was the 50inch had 8inches more real estate. Honestly, the human eye cannot distinguish between 1280x720 and 1024x768. You can label it anything you want but the fact of the matter is the PQ is the same to our eyes! So what does it matter? There's even strong debate of wether the human eye will be able to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p!

02-21-2006, 12:10 AM	#74
crypticstatic How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 28	ward you are a HILARIOUS guy, I wet back and read some of your other posts and I damned near rolled off my couch laughing.... I say that in a friendly kind of way of course. Your posts just crack me up with you being stuck on the whole pixel issue.. lmao... It reminds me of two old ladies arguing over thread count in bathroom towels and which one "looks" better because one old bag has 10 percent more thread count than the other.... anyhoo... the ONLY thing that qualifies a HDTV is that 720 line minimum, so to say that a 42inch 1024x768 is not a HDTV is simply wrong by todays standards.. The TV is either HDTV or it isnt.. it just seems silly to me... especially when a person can't tell the differnece in PQ! thats the real kicker.... If I look in my owners manual is CLEARLY states my plasma as being an HDTV set... It even says it on the damn tv itself.... am I just out right being lied to??

02-21-2006, 05:55 AM	#75
S0LE_SURVIV0R Watch this in HD! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Boston Age: 45 Posts: 287	Ward, You just showed everyone the kind of guy you are. See if anybody respects your posts. Like a person said, I provided over 15 links. To everyone who read this thread, see how they interpret 1024x768 now, and again, how they view you. __________________ Sony 40 LCD flat panel XBR & Panasonic 37 768p Plasma HD TIVO The human eye can barely perceive a 1366x768 resolution 10 feet away from a 50 inch see http://proav.pubdyn.com/2005_January...rallaxview.htm 720p Fastest & Best Temporal Resolution Sony "The world's greatest high definition television"