High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource

Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource > High Definition Viewing Mediums, HDTVs > Flat-Panel TVs
Rules HDTV Forum Gallery LINK TO US! RSS - High Def Forum AddThis Feed Button AddThis Social Bookmark Button Groups

Flat-Panel TVs Plasma, LCD RSS - Flat-Panel TVs

Plasma: question about whites

Reply
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-30-2012, 09:09 PM   #1
My plasma is High Def.
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6
Default Plasma: question about whites

I use to have a Sony 55" Rear Projection TV which finally decided to die... ran a solid 13 to 15 years... can remember exactly how long, but served me well.

So I ready for my next TV that will last so I have been looking firstly at Plasmas due to the strong comments about the great blacks and rich colors over the LED LCD's.

I researched long and hard and was narrowing down between Panasonic 65" GT50 or 65" VT50 series.

So I finally decide to go to the stores to start comparing them all and when I walk in to each store I see all these fairly bright screens and then I notice sprinkled throughout the mix all of the TV's that look a tad muted or dirty among all the brighter ones. I start thinking... wow those look a little off, but then I realize everyone one of those that looked like that were plasma tv's.

Now I definitely saw some LED/LCD's that were TOO bright and washed out, but I couldn't get over how these plasmas looked less bright.

I decided to ignore brightness and try to just focus on image sharpness, color and tone, blurring / motion issues and I can say that the plasmas had good color, no blurring, and overall good image, BUT anytime whites or brighter colors were represented they always looked a bit dingy.

So I thought it was just the settings this store had so I went to one other large chain and the same issue... so I then decided to go to the audio / visual experts in town that focus on the higher end TVs like the VT50 and Sony XBR65HX950 and Samsung PN64E8000. When I got there I saw the same thing, all plasma had the dingy whites and sort of overall muted look to all brighter colors. This was in a fairly dark room as well so lighting wasn't causing a problem.

So my question as you can guess is... is that just the best you can do with a plasma on the brighter colors... it simply will have a dingy look?

I can say that the Sony XBR65H950 looked awesome, BUT a bit of sticker shock.

I follow up with another post about best LED/LCD for the buck, but for now just want to confirm what I am seeing with Plasma.

Thanks in advance for your feedback,

Greg

Last edited by gsaunders; 11-30-2012 at 11:01 PM.
gsaunders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 10:07 PM   #2
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Nashville
Posts: 272
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsaunders View Post
I use to have a Sony 55" Rear Projection TV which finally decided to do... ran a solid 13 to 15 years... can remember exactly how long, but served me well.

So I ready for my next TV that will last so I have been looking firstly at Plasmas due to the strong comments about the great blacks and rich colors over the LED LCD's.

I researched long and hard and was narrowing down between Panasonic 65" GT50 or 65" VT50 series.

So I finally decide to go to the stores to start comparing them all and when I walk in to each store I see all these fairly bright screens and then I notice sprinkled throughout the mix all of the TV's that look a tad muted or dirty among all the brighter ones. I start thinking... wow those look a little off, but then I realize everyone one of those that looked like that were plasma tv's.

Now I definitely saw some LED/LCD's that were TOO bright and washed out, but I couldn't get over how these plasmas looked less bright.

I decided to ignore brightness and try to just focus on image sharpness, color and tone, blurring / motion issues and I can say that the plasmas had good color, no blurring, and overall good image, BUT anytime whites or brighter colors were represented they always looked a bit dingy.

So I thought it was just the settings this store had so I went to one other large chain and the same issue... so I then decided to go to the audio / visual experts in town that focus on the higher end TVs like the VT50 and Sony XBR65HX950 and Samsung PN64E8000. When I got there I saw the same thing, all plasma had the dingy whites and sort of overall muted look to all brighter colors. This was in a fairly dark room as well so lighting wasn't causing a problem.

So my question as you can guess is... is that just the best you can do with a plasma on the brighter colors... it simply will have a dingy look?

I can say that the Sony XBR65H950 looked awesome, BUT a bit of sticker shock.

I follow up with another post about best LED/LCD for the buck, but for now just want to confirm what I am seeing with Plasma.

Thanks in advance for your feedback,

Greg
What you are seeing is perfectly normal. Plasma's are not bright nor can they display whites like LCD's can. If you look closely, you will notice plasmas look like a mirror.
WashedOut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 10:28 PM   #3
I bleed for HD
 

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,753
Default

OMG the ubertroll washedout is back. Plasmas aren't for everybody but tv's in the display are lit poorly under fluorescent lights with contrast and brightness levels made to try and standout (thereby compete for) the viewers eye. When brought home and placed in your lighting with the tv taken out of vivid mode and placed in THX or movie mode and using a simple test pattern disc to set basic contrast, brightness, sharpness, color etc. to get you an accurate picture. Showrooms are a pretty terrible place to evaluate tv's - do a fedw searches for top end tv ratings and you will find it dominated by plasmas and for a reason. Not to say there aren't some really nice lcd/led that gare starting to give comparable arguments but issues such as viewing angle still remain. High end plasmas yield stellar pictures when tweaked properly - they may not be as bright or garish as an led/lcd tv but in that room by themselves they will shine.
__________________
HT- Panasonic TH-50PZ800U 1080p plasma, Panasonic PT-AX200u LCD projector, Elite Vmax Electric 100' screen, Pioneer Elite SC-71 AVR, Paradigm Titan Monitor v5 fronts, Paradigm CC-190 v6 center, Paradigm Atom Monitors v5 surrounds(x4), HSU research VTF-2 sub, HTPC/Gaming rig, Sony BDP-S550 blu-ray, Uverse HD-DVR, Roku 2

Bedroom: Insignia NS-lcd26, Samsung BDP-1400 blu-ray
Den - Vizio 20" 1080p LCD + Samsung BD-p1600


Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Albert Einstein
jkkyler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 11:06 PM   #4
My plasma is High Def.
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WashedOut View Post
What you are seeing is perfectly normal. Plasma's are not bright nor can they display whites like LCD's can. If you look closely, you will notice plasmas look like a mirror.
In regards to the "mirror" look you are referring to... I know glass provides more glare possibility from light in the room, but so did the Samsung LED/LCD I saw that had glass. It was LED/LCD and had the same glare to me. I think it improved the picture, but even on that higher end unit if you had high light in the room you would see same glare. But I get that in general most LED/LCD's have less glare issues.

I am not as worried about lighting as I can control it, more about not having a dingy white. If calibration can help improve this then I think I would be happier. Otherwise the plasma had a very rich color and very smooth display.
gsaunders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 11:14 PM   #5
My plasma is High Def.
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkkyler View Post
OMG the ubertroll washedout is back. Plasmas aren't for everybody but tv's in the display are lit poorly under fluorescent lights with contrast and brightness levels made to try and standout (thereby compete for) the viewers eye. When brought home and placed in your lighting with the tv taken out of vivid mode and placed in THX or movie mode and using a simple test pattern disc to set basic contrast, brightness, sharpness, color etc. to get you an accurate picture. Showrooms are a pretty terrible place to evaluate tv's - do a fedw searches for top end tv ratings and you will find it dominated by plasmas and for a reason. Not to say there aren't some really nice lcd/led that gare starting to give comparable arguments but issues such as viewing angle still remain. High end plasmas yield stellar pictures when tweaked properly - they may not be as bright or garish as an led/lcd tv but in that room by themselves they will shine.
jkkyler... at first I thought you were calling me an ubertroll for my question, but then I realized that was the other posters forum name so there must be some sort if history I am missing out on.

I realize this post was my first, but it is a genuine post with genuine concern.

The best place I found for comparing the screens was our high end dealer that is local and not a chain. The rooms were all darker and very low light so I had good conditions to see things... not like your well lit Best Buy or hhgregg.

But as I noted comparing the two you could clearly see a brightness difference. Now on some of those "brighter" LED/LCD's you could see the colors were slightly washed out verses the Plasma VT50 and PN65E8000. So color richness did go to the plasma in my eyes. The over all brightness doesn't bother me much... it is just that whites looked for lack of a better word "dingy".

I know you probably understand what I am talking about... and that is probably the only negative I felt with my eyes. Now the question is how much can that be improved with calibration or adjustments. Will a plasma never display a good clean white? Or can it be adjusted to where it is almost not noticeable. Obviously once in my home not sitting next to a bright lit LED/LCD I may not notice, but even in this low light local dealer I could see the difference.

In the end I know my purchase will have to be made on personal taste of what I see, but with that being the only negative I could see I want to see how much it can be cleaned up sorta speak.

Thanks again for your feedback and input.
gsaunders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2012, 02:10 AM   #6
ISF Technician
 
d6500k's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Oregon
Age: 61
Posts: 1,721
Default

Back in the time of your rptv, Mr. Sony had discovered that by adjusting the color temperature of the display to upwards of 10000 k, folks swarmed to the "new brightest display ever". Never mind that the images presented were not accurate.

You see, the SMPTE folks had long before set the standard for color temp of films to be 6500k at d65 on the black body curve. In English, that translates to the color of the sky, overcast and noon day sun. If you compare two displays side by side, one set accurately as the maker of the film intended and one set at a much higher color temperature, the high temperature set will be tinted blue and this makes whites appear brighter.

There are other factors as well. TV's with very bright whites even with their ct's set properly may well be losing the ability to show the convolutions of say, clouds or snow. All definition will be lost on mis-calibrated TV's as the whites will be "clipped off" so to speak. A cloud might appear as a cotton ball instead of a whirling mass of moisture/vapor. By the way, the very same thing can be said of a tv that crushes the blacks to the point where the changes between the lapel of a dark jacket is lost against the fabric of the rest of the garment.

You had a kickin' CRT driven display. One that when carefully dialed in produced extremely accurate and true to the film director's intent, image. If you had been looking at it for all of this time in it's vivid mode, then an accurate display would indeed appear muted.

Have fun shopping. It will be your TV. Just be aware that the film makers set up their cameras to a standard. A bright and blue tv will not do the film justice.

Doug k
__________________
Serving Oregon and Southmost Texas.
Occasional tours to St. Petersburg/Tampa Fla.

www.6500kcalibrations.com
d6500k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2012, 05:47 PM   #7
My plasma is High Def.
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsaunders View Post
I use to have a Sony 55" Rear Projection TV which finally decided to die... ran a solid 13 to 15 years... can remember exactly how long, but served me well.

So I ready for my next TV that will last so I have been looking firstly at Plasmas due to the strong comments about the great blacks and rich colors over the LED LCD's.

I researched long and hard and was narrowing down between Panasonic 65" GT50 or 65" VT50 series.

So I finally decide to go to the stores to start comparing them all and when I walk in to each store I see all these fairly bright screens and then I notice sprinkled throughout the mix all of the TV's that look a tad muted or dirty among all the brighter ones. I start thinking... wow those look a little off, but then I realize everyone one of those that looked like that were plasma tv's.

Now I definitely saw some LED/LCD's that were TOO bright and washed out, but I couldn't get over how these plasmas looked less bright.

I decided to ignore brightness and try to just focus on image sharpness, color and tone, blurring / motion issues and I can say that the plasmas had good color, no blurring, and overall good image, BUT anytime whites or brighter colors were represented they always looked a bit dingy.

So I thought it was just the settings this store had so I went to one other large chain and the same issue... so I then decided to go to the audio / visual experts in town that focus on the higher end TVs like the VT50 and Sony XBR65HX950 and Samsung PN64E8000. When I got there I saw the same thing, all plasma had the dingy whites and sort of overall muted look to all brighter colors. This was in a fairly dark room as well so lighting wasn't causing a problem.

So my question as you can guess is... is that just the best you can do with a plasma on the brighter colors... it simply will have a dingy look?

I can say that the Sony XBR65H950 looked awesome, BUT a bit of sticker shock.

I follow up with another post about best LED/LCD for the buck, but for now just want to confirm what I am seeing with Plasma.

Thanks in advance for your feedback,

Greg
I know exactly how you feel about the whites and the overall picture being dulled. I have been looking at sets for the better part of a couple of years now and every time I go to a store I see the same thing time and time again, I can pick a plasma out from across the store because everything else looks so much brighter. Well I finally had the money the other day to get my first plasma so I ended up getting a Samsung PN51E530 plasma. As I was finishing up the deal I had butterflies in my gut wondering if this was the right choice but I just kept telling myself that everyone can't be wrong on how good plasmas are. Well I got the set home and what a difference, if you get one you won't be disappointed. Believe me, I was a skeptic but now I'm a true believer, I love this set.
tazz63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 08:44 PM   #8
My plasma is High Def.
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tazz63 View Post
I know exactly how you feel about the whites and the overall picture being dulled. I have been looking at sets for the better part of a couple of years now and every time I go to a store I see the same thing time and time again, I can pick a plasma out from across the store because everything else looks so much brighter. Well I finally had the money the other day to get my first plasma so I ended up getting a Samsung PN51E530 plasma. As I was finishing up the deal I had butterflies in my gut wondering if this was the right choice but I just kept telling myself that everyone can't be wrong on how good plasmas are. Well I got the set home and what a difference, if you get one you won't be disappointed. Believe me, I was a skeptic but now I'm a true believer, I love this set.
Well... in the end I purchased the Panasonic TC-P65VT50. Just waiting on installation date to get hear. Local vendor was backed up. Will have them mount it and do some other configurations. Now to figure out what to do for quality sound. I was thinking soundbar, but then I heard with basic soundbar if I had multiple sources for audio I may have an issue. Basic soundbar just has 1 hdmi in and 1 out. Even though TV has multiple HDMI in they say output from tv to soundbar may lose capabilities like drop down to just stereo so if I have multiple quality inputs then I probably want a true audio system that can take the multiple inputs.

Gotta do some more research!
gsaunders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 02:54 PM   #9
What is HD?
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2
Default

The whites in general aren't the problem. It's when the white takes up a large portion of the screen and auto-brightness limits kick in and kills the contrast is where plasmas run into trouble. That white background, or snow/ice surface will tend to look grey, and the contrast of everything on the screen will suffer. Otherwise, the picture from my new GT50 is stunning.
TerminallyOdd2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 03:11 PM   #10
My plasma is High Def.
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerminallyOdd2 View Post
The whites in general aren't the problem. It's when the white takes up a large portion of the screen and auto-brightness limits kick in and kills the contrast is where plasmas run into trouble. That white background, or snow/ice surface will tend to look grey, and the contrast of everything on the screen will suffer. Otherwise, the picture from my new GT50 is stunning.
I have the VT50 at home and it is indeed impressive. The things that are truly white indeed look white on the screen and things I thought were white were really not white to begin with. To me this makes this particular plasma more accurate in color reproduction.

For me I feel I made the correct purchase and am very happy.

I know on some of the settings the picture looks too dark even in a dark room... so not sure why those would even be preset values, but with the correct values things look stunning to me.

I was playing a game that provided some great night scenery and it was hard to believe the detail I could see... something I had never seen on a couple of LED LCD's I had viewed this game on.

Anyway... happy camper. Now to lock down my audio system.
gsaunders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 03:28 PM   #11
I bleed for HD
 

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,753
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsaunders View Post
I have the VT50 at home and it is indeed impressive. The things that are truly white indeed look white on the screen and things I thought were white were really not white to begin with. To me this makes this particular plasma more accurate in color reproduction.

For me I feel I made the correct purchase and am very happy.

I know on some of the settings the picture looks too dark even in a dark room... so not sure why those would even be preset values, but with the correct values things look stunning to me.

I was playing a game that provided some great night scenery and it was hard to believe the detail I could see... something I had never seen on a couple of LED LCD's I had viewed this game on.

Anyway... happy camper. Now to lock down my audio system.
I have no idea what Terminallyodd2 was saying but anyhow as you may have surmised it isn't correct. As you have discovered under home lighting in the natural/proper viewing environments Plasmas will give a stunning picture that if calibrated is very accurate. Now you understand why we often tell people not to buy based on what they see in the showroom as it is misleading - store personnell often use this same tactic to drive you towards higher priced led/lcd sets because of the 'showroom effect' that comes from torch mode. Manuf just want their sets to get noticed amongst the dozens of displays so they skew the settings to trick your eye and make them stand out vs showing a good pic. If you run into any audio questions let us know and we can help -jk
__________________
HT- Panasonic TH-50PZ800U 1080p plasma, Panasonic PT-AX200u LCD projector, Elite Vmax Electric 100' screen, Pioneer Elite SC-71 AVR, Paradigm Titan Monitor v5 fronts, Paradigm CC-190 v6 center, Paradigm Atom Monitors v5 surrounds(x4), HSU research VTF-2 sub, HTPC/Gaming rig, Sony BDP-S550 blu-ray, Uverse HD-DVR, Roku 2

Bedroom: Insignia NS-lcd26, Samsung BDP-1400 blu-ray
Den - Vizio 20" 1080p LCD + Samsung BD-p1600


Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Albert Einstein
jkkyler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 10:23 AM   #12
No I don't miss LowDef
 
tkurkowski's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic, USA
Posts: 262
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsaunders View Post
Even though TV has multiple HDMI in they say output from tv to soundbar may lose capabilities like drop down to just stereo so if I have multiple quality inputs then I probably want a true audio system that can take the multiple inputs.
Not "may lose" - it will lose. HDTVs drop the digital audio out to 2 channel except for what they receive OTA from their internal tuner. Don't ask me why, but this is for certain true. So if you want to hear surround sound you'll need to run your inputs into a receiver or soundbar that has HDMI switching, then HDMI out to the TV.

Ted
__________________
"Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it's wrong." Arthur Pendragon
tkurkowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 10:36 AM   #13
My plasma is High Def.
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tkurkowski View Post
Not "may lose" - it will lose. HDTVs drop the digital audio out to 2 channel except for what they receive OTA from their internal tuner. Don't ask me why, but this is for certain true. So if you want to hear surround sound you'll need to run your inputs into a receiver or soundbar that has HDMI switching, then HDMI out to the TV.

Ted
Thanks for the additional confirmation. I am in the hunt right now for a new quality AVR so I should be golden.
gsaunders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2012, 03:16 PM   #14
A couch and an HDTV to go please.
 

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 12
Default

Brand new here, was about to start looking at threads to see if I could get some information when this thread caught my eye. What TerminalyyOdd2 is saying is the truth. He was describing the ABL (Automatic Brightness Limiter), which has become standard in all plasmas since 2009 in order to comply with energy star standards. What he described is accurate, the TV will automatically sense how much brightness is on screen and dim the television set accordingly. You will not get true whites on a plasma if it takes up a large portion of the screen. Hockey, intense snow scenes, and commercials with white backgrounds will all kick the ABL into effect, dimming the screen. Plasmas can achieve true whites if the ABL does not come into effect however. What this means is that only a small portion of the screen is white, therefore the ABL doesn't activate. You can change all the settings you want on the TV to minimize the impact, but the ABL cannot be disabled. I would be more than willing to bet those TV's you saw were experiencing the ABL, not a marketing ploy to get you to buy an LCD...

-Josh

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see that you had already went ahead with the purchase, just trying to help.

Last edited by JSpectre; 12-14-2012 at 03:23 PM.
JSpectre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2012, 02:14 PM   #15
What is HD?
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkkyler View Post
I have no idea what Terminallyodd2 was saying but anyhow as you may have surmised it isn't correct.
Yep, you're right. ABL is something I just made up.
TerminallyOdd2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource > High Definition Viewing Mediums, HDTVs > Flat-Panel TVs
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads to Plasma: question about whites
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LCD vs Plasma who rules? pappylap Flat-Panel TVs 673 11-02-2014 04:22 PM
Are Plasma TVs "on the way out?" TripleB Flat-Panel TVs 89 02-13-2011 02:10 PM
VIZIO kicks plasma to the curb, will focus on LCD TVs Lee Stewart Flat-Panel TVs 40 02-18-2009 01:01 PM
Question about panny plasma picture quality jck007 Flat-Panel TVs 11 01-16-2009 08:38 AM
My first Flat-Panel! 2 choices. Which one? Both Samsung models Daddydc650 Flat-Panel TVs 7 09-02-2008 06:16 PM
Plasma screen resolution question longhornato Flat-Panel TVs 48 12-03-2007 07:10 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:32 AM.



Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2004 - 2008, High Def Forum