High-end flat panel HDTV shoot-out event

PFC5 · 10-06-2010, 08:35 PM

Here is another story about the shootout:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...ain;contentAux

Word is spreading.

dsskid · 10-08-2010, 05:27 AM

Kevin Miller's review of the Panasonic VT25
(ISF Technical Consultant, founder of TweakTv, renowned calibrator, who helped put together the shootout):

Quote:

Pros: Excellent black level performance. Good but not perfect overall color accuracy. Good feature set with very good connectivity. 3D ready.

Cons: Contrast ratio is limited because the panel clips white significantly at a contrast setting above 46 severely limiting light output. Color accuracy is marred by incorrect color decoding.

To Buy Or Not To Buy? While it may be one of the better panels on the market right now, it is by no means a contender to the Pioneer KRP or Elite from a year or two ago. For about $2400, it does out perform most all of the 55-inch direct array backlit LED LCD panels on the market at least is some areas of performance, and at a much lower price.

After calibrating several of the Panasonic TC-P58VT25s, and studying the calibration data, it is clear that, as much as the panel won the recent Flat Panel Shootout at Value Electronics, it does have some serious performance flaws. Still, it may be the best plasma currently on the market.

A thorough comparison of the Samsung PN58C8000 is what is needed to truly determine what the best flat panel is, as these are the two best plasmas as of this writing. I am waiting for Panasonic to submit a review sample so that I can spend as much time as necessary analyzing the panel in every aspect of performance, and write an in depth full blown technical review. In the meantime, I wanted to post a Quick Look Review as the panel has been on the market for sometime now.

Contrast Ratio: This is the Achilles heal of the TC-P58VT25. While blacks are very deep and inky, in the user menu in THX mode at least, which is the most color accurate of the picture modes, the panel begins to clip white at a Contrast setting of only 46, which yielded a paltry 17 fTLs (55 cdm2) peak light output. The TC-P58VT25 when tweaked in the User menu is not capable of acceptable light output for a well controlled environment on a flat panel, let alone your average living room where most flat panels are used. This is more like the light output we strive for in a dedicated front projection home theater that is completely black.

Read the rest here:
http://www.tweaktv.com/quick-looks/p...ever-made.html

DTV TiVo Dealer · 11-14-2010, 08:56 PM

Twice magazine did a follow-up on our shoot-out and decided to add the video of our flat-panel evaluation event in their video archive section.

-Robert

**ImRizzo** · 11-15-2010, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer

Twice magazine did a follow-up on our shoot-out and decided to add the video of our flat-panel evaluation event in their video archive section.

-Robert

Excellent recognition of a true GURU of HD and his associates and partners in Crime, the group who scrutinize and present the newest display panels for all of our benefit. My sincere Thanks to Robert for his invitation and permission to photograph his event, I'm looking forward to the next SHOOTOUT, each year it just keeps getting better, Thank you Kevin Miller, D-Nice and Ed Johnson and all the rest of the techno geeks who make this possible. Keep up the magnificent work guys.

da RIZZ

DTV TiVo Dealer · 11-16-2010, 04:25 PM

To put the question of Panasonic's 2010 model year rising mll to rest I have taken on the task of tracking the black level changes over time of Panasonic's TC-P58VT25 and Samsung's PN58C8000 and we'll post our findings monthly. These readings are the first taken since our 9/11/10 shoot-out event.

I was surprised the panels only had 652 hours of service as we have them on for 8 to 10 hrs per day 6 days a week since early June. But the service menu counted only 652 hrs. of use.

We also measured the reflections of the panels, which strongly favored Panasonic's anti-glare coatings. I have been told the final filtering and anti glare coatings are the same as the 9th generation Kuros.

Selfishly, I wish the results were different as VT25s are very constrained and Samsungs and LGs are plentiful. But the truth must be told so here are the facts.

I brought in Ed Johnson to take the readings and prepare this report. Ed is one of our master calibrators and on the panel of experts at our annual shoot-out event. Here's Ed's report:

Enjoy!

-Robert

As per your request and our discussion concerning Panasonic's long term black level performance here are the following reading I have acquired from the displays in your store.

Panasonic properly calibrated with a 0% pattern.
several readings:
Lowest .0007 fl
High .0014 fl
To verify that this was not due to light leakage the display was turned off and the meter consistently returned 0.0000 fl.
These readings were obtained with 652 service hours on the display.

The Samsung plasma display to the left was also measured.

Properly calibrated with a 0% pattern.
Several readings:
Lowest: .0024
High: .0041

Light leakage test was also done to verify that reading was not affected.

Screen reflectance was also measured with normal store lights on. Meter was place 6" from screen and light measured with display on and off.

On Off
Panasonic .0261 fl .0235 fl

Samsung .0567 fl .049 fl

Toshiba LED not on .015 fl

This just confirms what we see in the showroom. That the anti reflective coating on the Panasonic is better than the Samsung but not as good as the LED displays in reducing reflected room lighting.

All measurements were taken with a Klien K-10 meter.

Ed Johnson
EJ Video Calibration LLC

**ImRizzo** · 11-16-2010, 04:34 PM

Robert Thanks to you and Ed for the updates and the offer to keep us posted on the continual check-backs. Your da Man ! And Ed Johnson Thanks for your time and expertise.

DTV TiVo Dealer · 11-16-2010, 04:48 PM

Two things I forgot to bring up.

First the reason for the varied high/low MLL readings is that we took two measurement on both panels one immediately after a 100% white and then after a 2% window.

Also as we all can see their is no way the VT25 will ever reach the the Samsung black level.

I invite anyone and everyone to our store to personally see these panels butt next to each other.

-Robert

dsskid · 11-16-2010, 05:33 PM

Was the Samsung measured with cinema smooth engaged, as for some reason it seems to raise MLL reading. And is he getting Kuro black levels out of the VT25, as his results would seem to indicate, or are there too many zeros? Hard to believe. Can you post a copy of the reports?

DTV TiVo Dealer · 11-16-2010, 05:50 PM

I'm home now, but I'll ask Ed to post here tomorrow.

9th G Kuros go a little lower.

-Robert

dsskid · 11-16-2010, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer

I'm home now, but I'll ask Ed to post here tomorrow.

9th G Kuros go a little lower.

-Robert

Pro-111 is .001
500M is reported at .0005
VE shootout report of VT25 listed as .004
VE Shootout report of C8000 with cinema smooth off listed at .007-.008

Seems impossible for the latest VT25 report to be .0007 - .0014.

DTV TiVo Dealer · 11-17-2010, 07:07 AM

We were surprised the VT25 MLL was so low, which is why we took several readings and verified the meter by powering both TVs off and the meter read .000.

These readings were taken by Ed Johnson with his Klien K-10 meter. D-Nice took the readings at the shoot-out and I believe his meter reads to 3 decimal points.

Also please note that we took two MLL readings, one just after we generated a 2% window and one just after a full white. The second reading we took measured .0041, which is the same reading that we got at the shoot-out with D-Nice's meter.

So you can see that MLL readings can vary quite a bit depending on how much phosphor lag is on the screen. Which is why we tested both panels under different conditions.

The main point is that Panasonic's VT25 delivers a much lower MLL in high ambient light and low lighting and novices can all easily see the pq advantages of the VT25. This also validates our shoot-out event's value as the only true way to properly evaluate all of these panels. Put them all on a single wall so everyone can see how they perform.

Finally consider this; all of the readings you read about have been taken by different people, with different meters (some accurate some not) and under different conditions (like with or without phosphor lag on the screen). The only scientifically accurate readings are the ones taken under strict controlled conditions such as the ones we have done.

-Robert

dsskid · 11-17-2010, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer

We were surprised the VT25 MLL was so low, which is why we took several readings and verified the meter by powering both TVs off and the meter read .000.

These readings were taken by Ed Johnson with his Klien K-10 meter. D-Nice took the readings at the shoot-out and I believe his meter reads to 3 decimal points.

Also please note that we took two MLL readings, one just after we generated a 2% window and one just after a full white. The second reading we took measured .0041, which is the same reading that we got at the shoot-out with D-Nice's meter.

So you can see that MLL readings can vary quite a bit depending on how much phosphor lag is on the screen. Which is why we tested both panels under different conditions.

The main point is that Panasonic's VT25 delivers a much lower MLL in high ambient light and low lighting and novices can all easily see the pq advantages of the VT25. This also validates our shoot-out event's value as the only true way to properly evaluate all of these panels. Put them all on a single wall so everyone can see how they perform.

Finally consider this; all of the readings you read about have been taken by different people, with different meters (some accurate some not) and under different conditions (like with or without phosphor lag on the screen). The only scientifically accurate readings are the ones taken under strict controlled conditions such as the ones we have done.

-Robert

D-Nice utilizes the K-10 as well, and when I spoke to him, he stated that he checked and rechecked his results on the Panasonic calibration that he did at your store...under controlled conditions. Has Ed discussed his readings with DeWayne?

Did Ed provide a calibration report, or was he doing random readings?

I find Ed's reading suspect, as he is the only one to achieve a MLL under .003 for the VT25. I think Ed made have inadvertantly added an extra zero during his reporting.

Please let me know when the panels are tested at 1600+ hrs on them so we can test the rise levels of both. Also, next time DeWayne comes to your store, can you ask him to remeasure the VT25 with his Klein?

DTV TiVo Dealer · 11-17-2010, 08:33 AM

D-Nice has more cool toys than Batman so I'm not sure which meter or procedure he used.

Ed and I double checked the readings. Accurate MLL measurements are very susceptible to varied reading based on many factors. When the panel is stable and settles into its lowest MLL the Klein repeatably reads .0007.

Jeff Meyer stopped by a few weeks ago and got the same reading, .0007

-Robert

dsskid · 11-17-2010, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer

D-Nice has more cool toys than Batman so I'm not sure which meter or procedure he used.

Ed and I double checked the readings. Accurate MLL measurements are very susceptible to varied reading based on many factors. When the panel is stable and settles into its lowest MLL the Klein repeatably reads .0007.

Jeff Meyer stopped by a few weeks ago and got the same reading, .0007

-Robert

So what you're saying is that the VT25 has better MLL than a Pro-111? You don't truly believe this, do you Robert?

Why has no one in the industry picked up on this, and why hasn't it been advertised as the "Kuro Killer"?

Can you post a report here, or on your site so we can review it?

DTV TiVo Dealer · 11-17-2010, 09:01 AM

All we were doing was measuring MLL so we did not publish a report.

John, please stop by any day so you can see for yourself. I'll ask Ed to meet you in our store with his gear.

-Robert

10-06-2010, 08:35 PM	#151
PFC5 Former Super Moderator - RIP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 38,295	Here is another story about the shootout: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...ain;contentAux Word is spreading. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

11-14-2010, 08:56 PM	#153
DTV TiVo Dealer ValueElectronics.com Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Scarsdale, NY Posts: 610	Twice magazine did a follow-up on our shoot-out and decided to add the video of our flat-panel evaluation event in their video archive section. -Robert __________________ VE Advanced a/v technology dealer

11-16-2010, 04:25 PM	#155
DTV TiVo Dealer ValueElectronics.com Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Scarsdale, NY Posts: 610	To put the question of Panasonic's 2010 model year rising mll to rest I have taken on the task of tracking the black level changes over time of Panasonic's TC-P58VT25 and Samsung's PN58C8000 and we'll post our findings monthly. These readings are the first taken since our 9/11/10 shoot-out event. I was surprised the panels only had 652 hours of service as we have them on for 8 to 10 hrs per day 6 days a week since early June. But the service menu counted only 652 hrs. of use. We also measured the reflections of the panels, which strongly favored Panasonic's anti-glare coatings. I have been told the final filtering and anti glare coatings are the same as the 9th generation Kuros. Selfishly, I wish the results were different as VT25s are very constrained and Samsungs and LGs are plentiful. But the truth must be told so here are the facts. I brought in Ed Johnson to take the readings and prepare this report. Ed is one of our master calibrators and on the panel of experts at our annual shoot-out event. Here's Ed's report: Enjoy! -Robert As per your request and our discussion concerning Panasonic's long term black level performance here are the following reading I have acquired from the displays in your store. Panasonic properly calibrated with a 0% pattern. several readings: Lowest .0007 fl High .0014 fl To verify that this was not due to light leakage the display was turned off and the meter consistently returned 0.0000 fl. These readings were obtained with 652 service hours on the display. The Samsung plasma display to the left was also measured. Properly calibrated with a 0% pattern. Several readings: Lowest: .0024 High: .0041 Light leakage test was also done to verify that reading was not affected. Screen reflectance was also measured with normal store lights on. Meter was place 6" from screen and light measured with display on and off. On Off Panasonic .0261 fl .0235 fl Samsung .0567 fl .049 fl Toshiba LED not on .015 fl This just confirms what we see in the showroom. That the anti reflective coating on the Panasonic is better than the Samsung but not as good as the LED displays in reducing reflected room lighting. All measurements were taken with a Klien K-10 meter. Ed Johnson EJ Video Calibration LLC __________________ VE Advanced a/v technology dealer Last edited by DTV TiVo Dealer; 11-16-2010 at 04:29 PM.

11-16-2010, 04:34 PM	#156
ImRizzo HDF SUPER MODERATOR Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Formerly: Brooklyn, New York .... It's not a place, it's an Attitude and a State of Mind !! Posts: 19,050	Robert Thanks to you and Ed for the updates and the offer to keep us posted on the continual check-backs. Your da Man ! And Ed Johnson Thanks for your time and expertise. __________________ ..................................... PFC5 & Loves2Watch ~ RIP

11-16-2010, 04:48 PM	#157
DTV TiVo Dealer ValueElectronics.com Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Scarsdale, NY Posts: 610	Two things I forgot to bring up. First the reason for the varied high/low MLL readings is that we took two measurement on both panels one immediately after a 100% white and then after a 2% window. Also as we all can see their is no way the VT25 will ever reach the the Samsung black level. I invite anyone and everyone to our store to personally see these panels butt next to each other. -Robert __________________ VE Advanced a/v technology dealer

11-16-2010, 05:33 PM	#158
dsskid ISF Calibrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Age: 49 Posts: 4,946	Was the Samsung measured with cinema smooth engaged, as for some reason it seems to raise MLL reading. And is he getting Kuro black levels out of the VT25, as his results would seem to indicate, or are there too many zeros? Hard to believe. Can you post a copy of the reports? __________________ Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time. Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes. Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911 Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3 RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty Last edited by dsskid; 11-16-2010 at 05:36 PM.

11-16-2010, 05:50 PM	#159
DTV TiVo Dealer ValueElectronics.com Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Scarsdale, NY Posts: 610	I'm home now, but I'll ask Ed to post here tomorrow. 9th G Kuros go a little lower. -Robert __________________ VE Advanced a/v technology dealer

11-17-2010, 07:07 AM	#161
DTV TiVo Dealer ValueElectronics.com Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Scarsdale, NY Posts: 610	We were surprised the VT25 MLL was so low, which is why we took several readings and verified the meter by powering both TVs off and the meter read .000. These readings were taken by Ed Johnson with his Klien K-10 meter. D-Nice took the readings at the shoot-out and I believe his meter reads to 3 decimal points. Also please note that we took two MLL readings, one just after we generated a 2% window and one just after a full white. The second reading we took measured .0041, which is the same reading that we got at the shoot-out with D-Nice's meter. So you can see that MLL readings can vary quite a bit depending on how much phosphor lag is on the screen. Which is why we tested both panels under different conditions. The main point is that Panasonic's VT25 delivers a much lower MLL in high ambient light and low lighting and novices can all easily see the pq advantages of the VT25. This also validates our shoot-out event's value as the only true way to properly evaluate all of these panels. Put them all on a single wall so everyone can see how they perform. Finally consider this; all of the readings you read about have been taken by different people, with different meters (some accurate some not) and under different conditions (like with or without phosphor lag on the screen). The only scientifically accurate readings are the ones taken under strict controlled conditions such as the ones we have done. -Robert __________________ VE Advanced a/v technology dealer

11-17-2010, 08:33 AM	#163
DTV TiVo Dealer ValueElectronics.com Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Scarsdale, NY Posts: 610	D-Nice has more cool toys than Batman so I'm not sure which meter or procedure he used. Ed and I double checked the readings. Accurate MLL measurements are very susceptible to varied reading based on many factors. When the panel is stable and settles into its lowest MLL the Klein repeatably reads .0007. Jeff Meyer stopped by a few weeks ago and got the same reading, .0007 -Robert __________________ VE Advanced a/v technology dealer

11-17-2010, 09:01 AM	#165
DTV TiVo Dealer ValueElectronics.com Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Scarsdale, NY Posts: 610	All we were doing was measuring MLL so we did not publish a report. John, please stop by any day so you can see for yourself. I'll ask Ed to meet you in our store with his gear. -Robert __________________ VE Advanced a/v technology dealer