The black level measurements of 2010 Panasonic plasmas compared to the competition

PFC5 · 06-22-2010, 11:12 AM

We are always being asked/told about the concern with the rising black level "problem" with Panasonic plasmas. I thought it was important to save time trying to find the above post I did in an older thread with the measurements done by a very well respected ISF pro calibrator to get to the facts of the matter.

I hope this helps those looking for a HDTV to make an INFORMED choice based on facts/measurements rather than some of the exaggerated claims that sometimes border on hysteria that I have read elsewhere.

Need advice..... Panny TCP65V10

Here is the post reprinted here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatHappend

Panasonic Plasmas do have rising black levels (acknowledged by Panasonic). The 2009 series (non pro models) the rise is so bad and sudden that the displays look worse than 3 year old LCD TVs (3x rise in MIL).

There are threads here and at AVS that will have all the information you need.

You can read CNET's reviews that measure the rise on multiple models. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...html?tag=mncol

Sorry. That is BS what I highlighted in red about 3 year old LCDs having better blacks. Many LCDs basically turn off the backlighting when they get a 0% black signal, but get much lighter whenever ANY light is in the signal. So with such LCD displays you cannot directly and fairly compare them that way. And if I remember correctly the guy that posted pics of this "comparison" was also one that had a circuit board replaced which started the lightening over again (which Panasonic should have fixed IMO), so it was one of those exceptions to the average.

Yes the 2008/2009 models do have the black levels get lighter, but except for a few people's displays that had boards replaced and had them lighten twice, they just lighten to what the competition start out with black levels.

I have read well over 1,000 posts in that thread at AVS and this is how things have played out from what I have read. Some people are rightly upset because one of the reasons they chose the Panasonic was because they have much better black levels compared to the other plasma mfg out there being made now.

I own a 2008 Panasonic plasma and although the blacks must have gotten lighter, the PQ is still fantastic with about 6-8,000 hours on mine. Most people do not even think their display has gotten lighter and are quickly attacked for it by some who seem to want to make this out to be a bigger problem than it really is IMO.

Now the new 2010 Panasonic models are said to adjust this lightening of blacks much slower and only time will tell if this happens, but they are getting great reviews for the G20/G25 series and here is one that shows how black levels compare between the Panasonic plasma and the Samsung & LG plasmas that this well respected calibrator had for readings:

https://clevelandplasma.com/store/20...sung_pnxxc7000

Here is the part where they are compared:

Quote:

Quote: Since I had two other recently released plasmas nearby that I had just calibrated, I couldn’t resist doing a comparison between the C7000, the LG PK750, and the Panasonic G25. While screen size varied, I did calibrate all of them to a similar light output. This particular LG PK750 was not the sample I originally reviewed; it was the one on which I was able to successfully adjust it’s 20 point white balance/gamma adjustment. That will not be possible most of the time unless LG makes a correction in it’s adjustments, and it gave this particular PK750 an advantage. Please see my review of the PK750 for the complete explanation.

With a 0% black signal, the G25 had the darkest, inkiest blacks in a dark room. The PK750’s blacks were neutral toned but quite a bit lighter than the G25. It is possible, however, that as the G25 ages it’s black level would be more similar to the LG and Samsung because of it’s allegedly rising black level. The C7000’s blacks looked very close to the PK750’s, though a bit more greenish. With the lights on, the G25 suppressed reflections better than the PK750 or the C7000. Looking at the demo material on the DVE Essentials Blu Ray, I saw excellent skin tones on both the G25 and PK750, while complexions looked a bit too red on the C7000. There was a textured look on the PK750 that was only barely noticeable and was probably a byproduct of some edge enhancement. All three sets seemed to handle pans and motion about the same; there was a slight jerkiness that seemed to suggest none of the sets were displaying the 1080P/24 signal at a multiple of 24. The G25 and PK750 had good depth and pop, while the C7000 had richer, more vibrant color. The G25 had neutral toned but slightly overemphasized shadow detail. The PK750’s shadow detail was a bit less neutral with a slightly greenish tone, but also appeared a bit overemphasized. The C7000’s shadow detail was probably the most neutral when both color tone and visibility were taken into account. The G25’s image seemed just a tiny bit crisper.

Overall, I think the C7000 is a very good set with textbook measurements. It's color may be too vibrant for some while the cat's meow for others; and it's black level is not as dark as I would prefer, but in every other way it is a stand out set.

Here is where he measured the black levels of the PN50C7000:

Quote:

Quote: 1080i and 1080P resolution in dot by dot mode was perfect and strong. Black level, measured with a low light sensitive colorimeter profiled off the Eye One Pro meter on this TV, measured .033 fL. Black had a very slightly greenish cast. The modified ANSI contrast ratio measured 958:1. The C7000 could be calibrated to be nice and bright; I calibrated peak white to match 2 other plasmas nearby to facilitate a three way comparison at around 45-47 fL, though it could have easily gone higher.

Here is where he measured the the G25 black levels:

https://clevelandplasma.com/store/20...g20__tc_pxxg25

Quote:

Quote: ANSI contrast measured 1663:1, and black level measured .0083 fL with my Trichromat-1 colorimeter, which is more accurate and reliable at very low light levels than either the Chroma5 or i1Pro. The rest of the calibration was done with the i1Pro, since it is better with everything else besides the very dark readings.
This shows that the black level on the 2010 model would have to get 4x lighter just to be as light as the 2010 Samsung plasma is out of the box.

Another thing to remember is that the larger screen models 58" and higher actually start our even darker with the black levels too. Since the OP is getting the bigger screen sizes his black levels will start even lower also, so they will likely never get as light as the smaller screen models either.

Lets provide ALL the facts when we are talking about this issue and how it is relevant that the Panasonics start out much lower than the competition as well.

TwoPlusTwo · 06-22-2010, 11:14 AM

FINALLY!!

This sticky has been needed for a long time around here...

PFC5 · 06-22-2010, 11:33 AM

Yeah. I got sick of trying to find this post I did in response to this fear and at one point had to go back 8 pages in this section to find it.

I think this post I did pretty much sums up the issue. Do I wish that the blacks didn't lighten at all on them? Hell yeah! But they start out so much lower that it is a non-issue except that people didn't know that the blacks get lighter, so they feel slighted.

This is supposed to be less of an issue with the 2010 models and only time will tell if this is true with them being fairly new, but the new Panasonic 2010 models have a better THX mode compared to the 2009 models as well with damn near spot on color accuracy & Gamma out of the box when using this mode, AND the 2010 models' THX can get brighter than anyone should need in any room other than a true sun room, while the 2009 models didn't get as bright and with sunlight coming into the room many had to use CUSTOM mode which is not as accurate. Thankfully for the 2010 models they solved that issue as well.

The other brands do offer more controls for color etc, but who needs it when the 2010 THX mode is so accurate AND gets bright enough for nearly any room lighting too? But them again, Panasonic has more resistance to Image Retention (IR) compared to them and with the LG plasmas the difference is quite a bit more resistant. Then add the Panasonic plasmas have the highest reliability rating as well and THIS is why they sell more plasmas than anyone else easily and WHY so many people recommend them. I remember Panasonic being the recommended plasma on forums for years before I finally bought one myself, and after buying one in 2008 I am a believer as well.

soderholmd · 06-23-2010, 07:09 AM

I watched Signs last night in HD. The scenes in the basement of the house (where only flaslights are used in a pitch black basement) really show what the 2010 G20 / 25 can do. Amazingingly dark blacks, next to bright, bright flashlights. Really spectacular.......!

Loves2Watch · 06-23-2010, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soderholmd

I watched Signs last night in HD. The scenes in the basement of the house (where only flaslights are used in a pitch black basement) really show what the 2010 G20 / 25 can do. Amazingingly dark blacks, next to bright, bright flashlights. Really spectacular.......!

Exactly the kind of scene where plasma excels and beats the competition.

HiDefRev · 06-23-2010, 08:53 AM

Thanks, PFC5, for that informative post. Panasonic sold some 6 million plasmas last year. How many owners actually noticed a rise in their black levels ? I would hazard a guess at fewer than 100. I'm sure I'll be happily watching my Panny plasma for years to come.

Shockers2k8 · 06-23-2010, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loves2Watch

Exactly the kind of scene where plasma excels and beats the competition.

I would also think just about any scene in Blade Runner would be better on a plasma as well. On a side note, you guys don't know of any decent value priced soundbar, do ya?

Loves2Watch · 06-23-2010, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shockers2k8

I would also think just about any scene in Blade Runner would be better on a plasma as well. On a side note, you guys don't know of any decent value priced soundbar, do ya?

Ah yes, Blade Runner looks amazing on a plasma and not anywhere near as good on any of my LCD's or any other LCD display I have seen.

As for a soundbar, in general if it is value priced then it sounds like s__t.

Shockers2k8 · 06-23-2010, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loves2Watch

Ah yes, Blade Runner looks amazing on a plasma and not anywhere near as good on any of my LCD's or any other LCD display I have seen.

As for a soundbar, in general if it is value priced then it sounds like s__t.

Yeah, I assumed that's the case. I have a nice speaker set up in the man cave(Polks all around and Mirage sub) but am looking for something to put in the family room that will have better sound than the speakers on my 500U. I'll tell ya, the HK Soundsticks might even do it if I could hook em up! Sorry to hijack the thread....

Looking forward to Avatar on my new V10 65....

Loves2Watch · 06-23-2010, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shockers2k8

Yeah, I assumed that's the case. I have a nice speaker set up in the man cave(Polks all around and Mirage sub) but am looking for something to put in the family room that will have better sound than the speakers on my 500U. I'll tell ya, the HK Soundsticks might even do it if I could hook em up! Sorry to hijack the thread....

Looking forward to Avatar on my new V10 65....

Something like this might do the trick for you - http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...ss=Systems&p=i

dsskid · 06-24-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

All the data on model numbers vs hours vs MLL is available on line if you'd like to parse it:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...5QWIyanc&hl=en

Although I will say that I don't understand the fascination with mfgr date, as the trend is pretty robust across all models and we have no reason to believe there is any correlation with build date (especially considering the phenomenon almost certainly has been going on since 2006-07). Every set that has been measured (including four-out-of-four semi random models that CNet tested) has showed the same basic pattern and severity.

If anyone with a probe is still reading this thread, and wants to update their data (or contribute new data), it certainly wouldn't hurt. The most important piece of data to fill in IMHO is long-term readings for the big sets (58/65).

EDIT: here is an updated graph I just made:

-Batpig
http://www./avs-vb/showthread.php?p=...8#post18593688

DTV TiVo Dealer · 06-25-2010, 10:30 AM

Great thread! This is one of the single most important questions that all videophiles want to know.

Be careful when relying on measured ANSI contrast ratios. Although to me this is the single most important attribute and ANSI is one of the best increments to accurately measure and honestly compare the native contrast ratios it is difficult to properly and accurately measure.

On/Off contrast ratio is easier to measure as the ANSI measurement needs to look at the the interlaced and sub-fields.

-Robert

PFC5 · 06-25-2010, 12:44 PM

I would also be wary of individuals' measurements as little differences in setup, etc. between separate measurements spread over time could throw the numbers off as well.

dsskid · 06-25-2010, 08:27 PM

Many of the charted rises were from readings performed and documented by professional calibrators.

PFC5 · 06-26-2010, 12:02 AM

I know some were, but when I was reading over 1,000 pages to get as much info as possible the majority were people buying meters to test it themselves and lots of errors were being made and many people were saying how to do it correctly.

So no doubt some were pro calibrator numbers but the majority last time I looked were ordinary users with meters doing the readings themselves.

06-22-2010, 11:14 AM	#2
TwoPlusTwo 2x GTX Titan SLI Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Academia Posts: 6,894	FINALLY!! This sticky has been needed for a long time around here... __________________ Pioneer Kuro Elite PRO-101FD, HP ZR30w 30" 1600p Monitor, 7.1 Surround Sound Equipment, Gaming PC, Playstation 3. Harmony One Remote. Currently Playing: Metro Last Light (PC) , Far Cry 3 Blood Dragon (PC) Steam ID: NonTensorial

06-22-2010, 11:33 AM	#3
PFC5 Former Super Moderator - RIP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 38,295	Yeah. I got sick of trying to find this post I did in response to this fear and at one point had to go back 8 pages in this section to find it. I think this post I did pretty much sums up the issue. Do I wish that the blacks didn't lighten at all on them? Hell yeah! But they start out so much lower that it is a non-issue except that people didn't know that the blacks get lighter, so they feel slighted. This is supposed to be less of an issue with the 2010 models and only time will tell if this is true with them being fairly new, but the new Panasonic 2010 models have a better THX mode compared to the 2009 models as well with damn near spot on color accuracy & Gamma out of the box when using this mode, AND the 2010 models' THX can get brighter than anyone should need in any room other than a true sun room, while the 2009 models didn't get as bright and with sunlight coming into the room many had to use CUSTOM mode which is not as accurate. Thankfully for the 2010 models they solved that issue as well. The other brands do offer more controls for color etc, but who needs it when the 2010 THX mode is so accurate AND gets bright enough for nearly any room lighting too? But them again, Panasonic has more resistance to Image Retention (IR) compared to them and with the LG plasmas the difference is quite a bit more resistant. Then add the Panasonic plasmas have the highest reliability rating as well and THIS is why they sell more plasmas than anyone else easily and WHY so many people recommend them. I remember Panasonic being the recommended plasma on forums for years before I finally bought one myself, and after buying one in 2008 I am a believer as well. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5 Last edited by PFC5; 06-22-2010 at 11:37 AM.

06-23-2010, 07:09 AM	#4
soderholmd The G20 rocks! Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 116	I watched Signs last night in HD. The scenes in the basement of the house (where only flaslights are used in a pitch black basement) really show what the 2010 G20 / 25 can do. Amazingingly dark blacks, next to bright, bright flashlights. Really spectacular.......! __________________ Technology is great isnt it........!

06-23-2010, 08:53 AM	#6
HiDefRev The Universe is HiDef. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: State of Relativity, USA Posts: 2,443	Panny plasmas Thanks, PFC5, for that informative post. Panasonic sold some 6 million plasmas last year. How many owners actually noticed a rise in their black levels ? I would hazard a guess at fewer than 100. I'm sure I'll be happily watching my Panny plasma for years to come. __________________ Living Room Panasonic TC-P58VT25 3D Plasma HDTV, Panasonic DMP-BDT350 3D Blu-ray player, Sony PS3 Slim 160 Gig 3D enabled, Charter Cable HD DVR 3D enabled, Onkyo TX-SR608 7.2 3D AV Receiver, Yamaha NS-777 Front Tower Speakers, Yamaha NS-6490 Front Height and Surround Speakers, Cadence C-17 Center Speaker, Acoustic Audio HD-SUB15 Subwoofer, RCA ANT806, Monoprice Cables Master Bedroom Panasonic PT-50LCZ70 1080p HDTV, Sony PS3 80 Gig, Charter HD DVR, Onkyo HT-S6100 7.1 AV System

06-25-2010, 10:30 AM	#12
DTV TiVo Dealer ValueElectronics.com Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Scarsdale, NY Posts: 608	Great thread! This is one of the single most important questions that all videophiles want to know. Be careful when relying on measured ANSI contrast ratios. Although to me this is the single most important attribute and ANSI is one of the best increments to accurately measure and honestly compare the native contrast ratios it is difficult to properly and accurately measure. On/Off contrast ratio is easier to measure as the ANSI measurement needs to look at the the interlaced and sub-fields. -Robert __________________ VE Advanced a/v technology dealer

06-25-2010, 12:44 PM	#13
PFC5 Former Super Moderator - RIP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 38,295	I would also be wary of individuals' measurements as little differences in setup, etc. between separate measurements spread over time could throw the numbers off as well. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

06-25-2010, 08:27 PM	#14
dsskid ISF Calibrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Age: 49 Posts: 4,946	Many of the charted rises were from readings performed and documented by professional calibrators. __________________ Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time. Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes. Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911 Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3 RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty

06-26-2010, 12:02 AM	#15
PFC5 Former Super Moderator - RIP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 38,295	I know some were, but when I was reading over 1,000 pages to get as much info as possible the majority were people buying meters to test it themselves and lots of errors were being made and many people were saying how to do it correctly. So no doubt some were pro calibrator numbers but the majority last time I looked were ordinary users with meters doing the readings themselves. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5