High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource

Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource > High Definition Viewing Mediums, HDTVs > Flat-Panel TVs
Rules HDTV Forum Gallery LINK TO US! RSS - High Def Forum AddThis Feed Button AddThis Social Bookmark Button Groups

Flat-Panel TVs Plasma, LCD RSS - Flat-Panel TVs

The black level measurements of 2010 Panasonic plasmas compared to the competition

Reply
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-22-2010, 11:12 AM   #1
Former Super Moderator - RIP
 
PFC5's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 38,295
Default The black level measurements of 2010 Panasonic plasmas compared to the competition

We are always being asked/told about the concern with the rising black level "problem" with Panasonic plasmas. I thought it was important to save time trying to find the above post I did in an older thread with the measurements done by a very well respected ISF pro calibrator to get to the facts of the matter.

I hope this helps those looking for a HDTV to make an INFORMED choice based on facts/measurements rather than some of the exaggerated claims that sometimes border on hysteria that I have read elsewhere.

Need advice..... Panny TCP65V10

Here is the post reprinted here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post
Panasonic Plasmas do have rising black levels (acknowledged by Panasonic). The 2009 series (non pro models) the rise is so bad and sudden that the displays look worse than 3 year old LCD TVs (3x rise in MIL).

There are threads here and at AVS that will have all the information you need.

You can read CNET's reviews that measure the rise on multiple models. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...html?tag=mncol

Sorry. That is BS what I highlighted in red about 3 year old LCDs having better blacks. Many LCDs basically turn off the backlighting when they get a 0% black signal, but get much lighter whenever ANY light is in the signal. So with such LCD displays you cannot directly and fairly compare them that way. And if I remember correctly the guy that posted pics of this "comparison" was also one that had a circuit board replaced which started the lightening over again (which Panasonic should have fixed IMO), so it was one of those exceptions to the average.

Yes the 2008/2009 models do have the black levels get lighter, but except for a few people's displays that had boards replaced and had them lighten twice, they just lighten to what the competition start out with black levels.

I have read well over 1,000 posts in that thread at AVS and this is how things have played out from what I have read. Some people are rightly upset because one of the reasons they chose the Panasonic was because they have much better black levels compared to the other plasma mfg out there being made now.

I own a 2008 Panasonic plasma and although the blacks must have gotten lighter, the PQ is still fantastic with about 6-8,000 hours on mine. Most people do not even think their display has gotten lighter and are quickly attacked for it by some who seem to want to make this out to be a bigger problem than it really is IMO.

Now the new 2010 Panasonic models are said to adjust this lightening of blacks much slower and only time will tell if this happens, but they are getting great reviews for the G20/G25 series and here is one that shows how black levels compare between the Panasonic plasma and the Samsung & LG plasmas that this well respected calibrator had for readings:

https://clevelandplasma.com/store/20...sung_pnxxc7000

Here is the part where they are compared:

Quote:
Quote: Since I had two other recently released plasmas nearby that I had just calibrated, I couldn’t resist doing a comparison between the C7000, the LG PK750, and the Panasonic G25. While screen size varied, I did calibrate all of them to a similar light output. This particular LG PK750 was not the sample I originally reviewed; it was the one on which I was able to successfully adjust it’s 20 point white balance/gamma adjustment. That will not be possible most of the time unless LG makes a correction in it’s adjustments, and it gave this particular PK750 an advantage. Please see my review of the PK750 for the complete explanation.

With a 0% black signal, the G25 had the darkest, inkiest blacks in a dark room. The PK750’s blacks were neutral toned but quite a bit lighter than the G25. It is possible, however, that as the G25 ages it’s black level would be more similar to the LG and Samsung because of it’s allegedly rising black level. The C7000’s blacks looked very close to the PK750’s, though a bit more greenish. With the lights on, the G25 suppressed reflections better than the PK750 or the C7000. Looking at the demo material on the DVE Essentials Blu Ray, I saw excellent skin tones on both the G25 and PK750, while complexions looked a bit too red on the C7000. There was a textured look on the PK750 that was only barely noticeable and was probably a byproduct of some edge enhancement. All three sets seemed to handle pans and motion about the same; there was a slight jerkiness that seemed to suggest none of the sets were displaying the 1080P/24 signal at a multiple of 24. The G25 and PK750 had good depth and pop, while the C7000 had richer, more vibrant color. The G25 had neutral toned but slightly overemphasized shadow detail. The PK750’s shadow detail was a bit less neutral with a slightly greenish tone, but also appeared a bit overemphasized. The C7000’s shadow detail was probably the most neutral when both color tone and visibility were taken into account. The G25’s image seemed just a tiny bit crisper.

Overall, I think the C7000 is a very good set with textbook measurements. It's color may be too vibrant for some while the cat's meow for others; and it's black level is not as dark as I would prefer, but in every other way it is a stand out set.
Here is where he measured the black levels of the PN50C7000:

Quote:
Quote: 1080i and 1080P resolution in dot by dot mode was perfect and strong. Black level, measured with a low light sensitive colorimeter profiled off the Eye One Pro meter on this TV, measured .033 fL. Black had a very slightly greenish cast. The modified ANSI contrast ratio measured 958:1. The C7000 could be calibrated to be nice and bright; I calibrated peak white to match 2 other plasmas nearby to facilitate a three way comparison at around 45-47 fL, though it could have easily gone higher.
Here is where he measured the the G25 black levels:

https://clevelandplasma.com/store/20...g20__tc_pxxg25

Quote:
Quote: ANSI contrast measured 1663:1, and black level measured .0083 fL with my Trichromat-1 colorimeter, which is more accurate and reliable at very low light levels than either the Chroma5 or i1Pro. The rest of the calibration was done with the i1Pro, since it is better with everything else besides the very dark readings.
This shows that the black level on the 2010 model would have to get 4x lighter just to be as light as the 2010 Samsung plasma is out of the box.
Another thing to remember is that the larger screen models 58" and higher actually start our even darker with the black levels too. Since the OP is getting the bigger screen sizes his black levels will start even lower also, so they will likely never get as light as the smaller screen models either.

Lets provide ALL the facts when we are talking about this issue and how it is relevant that the Panasonics start out much lower than the competition as well.
__________________
Denon AVR-887
Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs)
All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr)
Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35
For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841
Panny 50pz80u plasma
SETTINGS
RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+
SA 3250HD
47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom)
Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support)
Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers
The_Cable_Game
Take the high ground and be happier
PSN: PFC5

Last edited by PFC5; 06-22-2010 at 11:25 AM.
PFC5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2010, 11:14 AM   #2
All Hair GLOW!
 
TwoPlusTwo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Academia
Posts: 10,757
Default

FINALLY!!

This sticky has been needed for a long time around here...
__________________
i7 3930k @ 4.2 GHz + H100i | 2x GTX Titan SLI | ASUS Rampage IV Extreme | 16 GB Corsair Dominator 2133 MHz | Panasonic TC-P60VT60 60" Plasma HDTV | 7.1 Surround Sound System

Currently Playing: Destiny Beta (PS4) , Dark Souls 2 Crown of the Sunken King DLC (PC) , Fallout 3 Game of the Year Edition (PC)

Steam ID = NonTensorial
TwoPlusTwo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2010, 11:33 AM   #3
Former Super Moderator - RIP
 
PFC5's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 38,295
Default

Yeah. I got sick of trying to find this post I did in response to this fear and at one point had to go back 8 pages in this section to find it.

I think this post I did pretty much sums up the issue. Do I wish that the blacks didn't lighten at all on them? Hell yeah! But they start out so much lower that it is a non-issue except that people didn't know that the blacks get lighter, so they feel slighted.

This is supposed to be less of an issue with the 2010 models and only time will tell if this is true with them being fairly new, but the new Panasonic 2010 models have a better THX mode compared to the 2009 models as well with damn near spot on color accuracy & Gamma out of the box when using this mode, AND the 2010 models' THX can get brighter than anyone should need in any room other than a true sun room, while the 2009 models didn't get as bright and with sunlight coming into the room many had to use CUSTOM mode which is not as accurate. Thankfully for the 2010 models they solved that issue as well.

The other brands do offer more controls for color etc, but who needs it when the 2010 THX mode is so accurate AND gets bright enough for nearly any room lighting too? But them again, Panasonic has more resistance to Image Retention (IR) compared to them and with the LG plasmas the difference is quite a bit more resistant. Then add the Panasonic plasmas have the highest reliability rating as well and THIS is why they sell more plasmas than anyone else easily and WHY so many people recommend them. I remember Panasonic being the recommended plasma on forums for years before I finally bought one myself, and after buying one in 2008 I am a believer as well.
__________________
Denon AVR-887
Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs)
All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr)
Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35
For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841
Panny 50pz80u plasma
SETTINGS
RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+
SA 3250HD
47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom)
Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support)
Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers
The_Cable_Game
Take the high ground and be happier
PSN: PFC5

Last edited by PFC5; 06-22-2010 at 11:37 AM.
PFC5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 07:09 AM   #4
The G20 rocks!
 

Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 116
Default

I watched Signs last night in HD. The scenes in the basement of the house (where only flaslights are used in a pitch black basement) really show what the 2010 G20 / 25 can do. Amazingingly dark blacks, next to bright, bright flashlights. Really spectacular.......!
__________________
Technology is great isnt it........!
soderholmd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 08:45 AM   #5
Former Super Moderator
 
Loves2Watch's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In Flux
Posts: 20,284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by soderholmd View Post
I watched Signs last night in HD. The scenes in the basement of the house (where only flaslights are used in a pitch black basement) really show what the 2010 G20 / 25 can do. Amazingingly dark blacks, next to bright, bright flashlights. Really spectacular.......!
Exactly the kind of scene where plasma excels and beats the competition.
__________________
It's always time for pie
Live everyday as if it was your last and plan on living forever...
Loves2Watch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 08:53 AM   #6
The Universe is HiDef.
 
HiDefRev's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: State of Relativity, USA
Posts: 2,497
Thumbs up Panny plasmas

Thanks, PFC5, for that informative post. Panasonic sold some 6 million plasmas last year. How many owners actually noticed a rise in their black levels ? I would hazard a guess at fewer than 100. I'm sure I'll be happily watching my Panny plasma for years to come.
__________________
Living Room
Samsung PN60F5500 60" 3D Plasma HDTV, Samsung BD-F5900 3D Blu-ray player, Directv HR44 Genie system, Onkyo TX-NR626 7.2 3D AV Receiver, BIC DV84 Front Tower Speakers, BIC DV62si Side Surround and Back Surround Speakers, BIC DV62CLR-S Center Speaker, BIC RtR-EV1200 Subwoofers x 2, Monoprice Cables
Master Bedroom
Vizio E470VL 47" 1080p HDTV, Directv Genie Client .
HiDefRev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 02:39 PM   #7
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loves2Watch View Post
Exactly the kind of scene where plasma excels and beats the competition.
I would also think just about any scene in Blade Runner would be better on a plasma as well. On a side note, you guys don't know of any decent value priced soundbar, do ya?
Shockers2k8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 03:23 PM   #8
Former Super Moderator
 
Loves2Watch's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In Flux
Posts: 20,284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockers2k8 View Post
I would also think just about any scene in Blade Runner would be better on a plasma as well. On a side note, you guys don't know of any decent value priced soundbar, do ya?
Ah yes, Blade Runner looks amazing on a plasma and not anywhere near as good on any of my LCD's or any other LCD display I have seen.

As for a soundbar, in general if it is value priced then it sounds like s__t.
__________________
It's always time for pie
Live everyday as if it was your last and plan on living forever...
Loves2Watch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 09:18 PM   #9
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loves2Watch View Post
Ah yes, Blade Runner looks amazing on a plasma and not anywhere near as good on any of my LCD's or any other LCD display I have seen.

As for a soundbar, in general if it is value priced then it sounds like s__t.
Yeah, I assumed that's the case. I have a nice speaker set up in the man cave(Polks all around and Mirage sub) but am looking for something to put in the family room that will have better sound than the speakers on my 500U. I'll tell ya, the HK Soundsticks might even do it if I could hook em up! Sorry to hijack the thread....

Looking forward to Avatar on my new V10 65....
Shockers2k8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 10:39 PM   #10
Former Super Moderator
 
Loves2Watch's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In Flux
Posts: 20,284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockers2k8 View Post
Yeah, I assumed that's the case. I have a nice speaker set up in the man cave(Polks all around and Mirage sub) but am looking for something to put in the family room that will have better sound than the speakers on my 500U. I'll tell ya, the HK Soundsticks might even do it if I could hook em up! Sorry to hijack the thread....

Looking forward to Avatar on my new V10 65....
Something like this might do the trick for you - http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...ss=Systems&p=i
__________________
It's always time for pie
Live everyday as if it was your last and plan on living forever...
Loves2Watch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 01:49 PM   #11
ISF Calibrator
 
dsskid's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 5,012
Default Panasonic's MLL Rise Data

Quote:
All the data on model numbers vs hours vs MLL is available on line if you'd like to parse it:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...5QWIyanc&hl=en

Although I will say that I don't understand the fascination with mfgr date, as the trend is pretty robust across all models and we have no reason to believe there is any correlation with build date (especially considering the phenomenon almost certainly has been going on since 2006-07). Every set that has been measured (including four-out-of-four semi random models that CNet tested) has showed the same basic pattern and severity.

If anyone with a probe is still reading this thread, and wants to update their data (or contribute new data), it certainly wouldn't hurt. The most important piece of data to fill in IMHO is long-term readings for the big sets (58/65).

EDIT: here is an updated graph I just made:
-Batpig
http://www./avs-vb/showthread.php?p=...8#post18593688
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MLL%20by%20size.jpg (36.2 KB, 1047 views)
__________________
Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time.

Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes.




Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911
Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3

RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty
dsskid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2010, 10:30 AM   #12
ValueElectronics.com
 
DTV TiVo Dealer's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Posts: 700
Default

Great thread! This is one of the single most important questions that all videophiles want to know.

Be careful when relying on measured ANSI contrast ratios. Although to me this is the single most important attribute and ANSI is one of the best increments to accurately measure and honestly compare the native contrast ratios it is difficult to properly and accurately measure.

On/Off contrast ratio is easier to measure as the ANSI measurement needs to look at the the interlaced and sub-fields.

-Robert
DTV TiVo Dealer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2010, 12:44 PM   #13
Former Super Moderator - RIP
 
PFC5's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 38,295
Default

I would also be wary of individuals' measurements as little differences in setup, etc. between separate measurements spread over time could throw the numbers off as well.
__________________
Denon AVR-887
Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs)
All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr)
Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35
For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841
Panny 50pz80u plasma
SETTINGS
RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+
SA 3250HD
47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom)
Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support)
Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers
The_Cable_Game
Take the high ground and be happier
PSN: PFC5
PFC5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2010, 08:27 PM   #14
ISF Calibrator
 
dsskid's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 5,012
Default

Many of the charted rises were from readings performed and documented by professional calibrators.
__________________
Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time.

Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes.




Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911
Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3

RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty
dsskid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 12:02 AM   #15
Former Super Moderator - RIP
 
PFC5's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 38,295
Default

I know some were, but when I was reading over 1,000 pages to get as much info as possible the majority were people buying meters to test it themselves and lots of errors were being made and many people were saying how to do it correctly.

So no doubt some were pro calibrator numbers but the majority last time I looked were ordinary users with meters doing the readings themselves.
__________________
Denon AVR-887
Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs)
All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr)
Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35
For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841
Panny 50pz80u plasma
SETTINGS
RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+
SA 3250HD
47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom)
Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support)
Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers
The_Cable_Game
Take the high ground and be happier
PSN: PFC5
PFC5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource > High Definition Viewing Mediums, HDTVs > Flat-Panel TVs
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:32 PM.



Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2004 - 2008, High Def Forum