The black level measurements of 2010 Panasonic plasmas compared to the competition

PFC5 · 10-01-2010, 04:08 PM

DO you see the blacks not being as deep with your prior year model? If not I wouldn't go looking for it. We all get obsessive at times about these things, but if you have over 1,000 hours on your TV already and don't notice it then don't worry about it because for this prior model with that many hours it has likely already changed some. The 2010 models take much longer for this to happen but your 2009 should likely already show this and if you don't notice it don't worry about it IMO.

dsskid · 10-01-2010, 08:17 PM

2009 models - 1,500 hrs. 2010 models - 2-3 yrs or 3,000-4,500 hrs.

3X rise. .008 MLL will be .024.

10-04-2010, 10:30 AM

...Alright, maybe someone can help me out here or at least show my flaws in how I am approaching this perceived problem...

...Purely hypothetical mind you but let's assume for a minute that my KURO has the ability to reach a black level (referred to as BL from this point on) of 0.001fl I however have it calibrated and get the best results at a setting of say 0.12fl.....now lets assume my KURO has a minimal BL rise to say 0.008.....lets also assume that my now calibrated setting has also risen accordingly to 0.19 What prevents me from recalibrating my set back to the level I find most accurate of 0.12 since it still is capable of attaining a BL of 0.008.....Rising BL is there true, but is a non-factor in the enjoyment of my display.

PFC5 · 10-04-2010, 10:44 AM

It has to do with the deepest black it can achieve no matter how you change the user or service menu settings because it is the pre-charge voltage that is changing. It does not effect your plasma though so no worries according to measurements taken.

My 2008 Panasonic model is said to be effected also, but the PQ is still fantastic after 2.5 years and probably over 8,000 hours on mine. Any change on mine is slight and you would have to be looking for it to see anything without a meter on it from what I see.

dsskid · 10-04-2010, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappylap

...Alright, maybe someone can help me out here or at least show my flaws in how I am approaching this perceived problem...

...Purely hypothetical mind you but let's assume for a minute that my KURO has the ability to reach a black level (referred to as BL from this point on) of 0.001fl I however have it calibrated and get the best results at a setting of say 0.12fl.....now lets assume my KURO has a minimal BL rise to say 0.008.....lets also assume that my now calibrated setting has also risen accordingly to 0.19 What prevents me from recalibrating my set back to the level I find most accurate of 0.12 since it still is capable of attaining a BL of 0.008.....Rising BL is there true, but is a non-factor in the enjoyment of my display.

Why would your best results be .12ftls? Set black to 16 (cal disc) and properly calibrate grayscale, and you will achieve .0001ftls. Set it to 22 and it will be higher, but why would you do so in the first place?

If you have a VT25 and properly set black level, you will get .004 ftls at 0 IRE. After the rise it will be .012 ftls at 0 IRE. There is nothing you can do to lower it below the .012 ftls. If you reduce the black level setting, all you will do is crush black (make 10 IRE equal to 0 IRE) and reduce shadow detail, but you will still be at .012 ftls (0IRE).

10-04-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Set black to 16 (cal disc)

What are you basing the setting of 16 on? my BL and Contrast settings are not the same as your Panasonic, or any other models display (my BL settings are all in the range of -2 to -30)...You seem to think a setting of 16 is universal......why?

10-04-2010, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

you would have to be looking for it to see anything without a meter on it from what I see.

....My thoughts from the beginning.... that any change would most likely need to be measured with an instrument and any change would be virtually imperceptible to the human eye....

Shame Boby is no longer here, I would love to have his input on this whole rising black level thing....

dsskid · 10-04-2010, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappylap

What are you basing the setting of 16 on? my BL and Contrast settings are not the same as your Panasonic, or any other models display (my BL settings are all in the range of -2 to -30)...You seem to think a setting of 16 is universal......why?

In the digital video world, reference black is 16. This is not to be confused with the setting on your display, but with values associated with a pluge pattern (such as those found on DVE BD, and Spears & Munsil calibration discs.)

When you set the black level to the reference level of 16, that will be the lowest MLL setting of your display. Setting it to 17, 18, 19, 20 will not lower the MLL, but rather crush blacks of the IRE above 0. Setting it to 15, 14, 13 etc will display below black, and wash out black level and raise MLL.

Are you sure that you took that ISF Calibration course?

dsskid · 10-04-2010, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

you would have to be looking for it to see anything without a meter on it from what I see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappylap

....My thoughts from the beginning.... that any change would most likely need to be measured with an instrument and any change would be virtually imperceptible to the human eye....
Shame Boby is no longer here, I would love to have his input on this whole rising black level thing....

That's absurd. With this reasoning, you would not be able to tell the difference between the black levels of a Samsung plasma and a Kuro. You could have saved yourself some money.

10-04-2010, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

That's absurd. With this reasoning, you would not be able to tell the difference between the black levels of a Samsung plasma and a Kuro. You could have saved yourself some money.

.....Sorry Dsskid but you simply strike me as a wanna' be you probably attended one of the ISF training modules paid for the certification and now sit idle in you home, can't be doing very much calibration work as you seem to be on this forum 24/7.... Anyway I count on d6500k's input on this forum from a calibrators standpoint. You need not reply to my post further as I simply do not consider you to be an informed source.....Thanks

dsskid · 10-04-2010, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappylap

.....Sorry Dsskid but you simply strike me as a wanna' be you probably attended one of the ISF training modules paid for the certification and now sit idle in you home, can't be doing very much calibration work as you seem to be on this forum 24/7.... Anyway I count on d6500k's input on this forum from a calibrators standpoint. You need not reply to my post further as I simply do not consider you to be an informed source.....Thanks

I do not make my living doing calibrations. It's a paid hobby for me. I'm replying from my office.

And Pappy, your opinon is valued even less than it was prior, if that's even possible, as I can see that you don't even have the slightest comprehension of the basic principles of calibration.
Feel free to put me on ignore.

shreder75 · 10-06-2010, 07:43 AM

tell ya what...I'll let you know if my black levels rise in 3 years..because unless it blows up I sure as hell ain't replacing a $1600 TV in three years time! LOL I'm keepin' 'er until she disintegrates

cccsdad · 10-11-2010, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

Oh yeah, I forgot....If you don't see it, it doesn't exist.

No, if you don't see it it doesn't effect you. So why go out of your way to see it. Ya know I'm sure I can pull out one of my hairs, put it under a super high powered microscope and see some sort of microscopic bug living on it, but had I not gone out of my way to find it, I would have never known the difference.

I've been arguing on AVS for weeks now, about this issue. My feeling is if you have an out of the box reading of .007 (cnets readings on the TCP50G20) and over a long period of time that gradually increases to .012, you would have a very hard time detecting that change, unless you put the two sets side by side in a very dark room.

Most average viewers, under normal conditions will never notice such a small change. Again, I'm not talking about a drastic change taking place over night, I'm also not saying I think that any MLL rise is acceptable, I'm saying if you don't notice it, then it's not an issue for you.

If the MLL on the pannys are rising, and no other mfg's are, the they (Panasonic) need to correct the issue regardless.

dsskid · 10-11-2010, 03:26 PM

And I'm saying that if your eyes cannot perceive the difference between .007 and .012 or .015, then why are you spending the additional money on buying a Panasonic? For those who can tell the difference between the two, you have every right to feel ripped off by Panasonic.

PFC5 · 10-11-2010, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

And I'm saying that if your eyes cannot perceive the difference between .007 and .012 or .015, then why are you spending the additional money on buying a Panasonic? For those who can tell the difference between the two, you have every right to feel ripped off by Panasonic.

I hear what you are saying to a point, but there are other reasons IMO to want a Panasonic plasma. Like Customer Service usually being at/near the top, consistently the highest reliability for a few years now, and good history with Panasonic displays.

I exclude LG from my choice since I went through 5 LG DLPs before giving up and getting another brand. My friend went through 1 DLP, and 3 plasmas and had problems with all of them. He returned the DLP for a plasma and then over the course of about 3 years with 3 different LG plasmas he had problems like all of them having pixels turn into red blinking beacons and the number of pixels grew each couple of months after the first one appeared. He also had HDCP issues and PQ issues with 2 of the 3 plasmas as well. He had severe image retention with all 3 plasmas where simply bringing up the TV's own menus for 1 minute would cause IR that would take usually over 10 minutes to mostly go away. I imagine if he tried gaming with them he would have much bigger IR issues if he played games with constant HUDS/scoreboards up, but he didn't have a console hooked up to it. Just the TV menu alone for 1 minute caused this.

DO I wish this was not an issue? Of course, but it is what it is and no set or mfg is perfect.

10-01-2010, 04:08 PM	#76
PFC5 Former Super Moderator - RIP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 38,295	DO you see the blacks not being as deep with your prior year model? If not I wouldn't go looking for it. We all get obsessive at times about these things, but if you have over 1,000 hours on your TV already and don't notice it then don't worry about it because for this prior model with that many hours it has likely already changed some. The 2010 models take much longer for this to happen but your 2009 should likely already show this and if you don't notice it don't worry about it IMO. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

10-01-2010, 08:17 PM	#77
dsskid ISF Calibrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Age: 49 Posts: 4,946	2009 models - 1,500 hrs. 2010 models - 2-3 yrs or 3,000-4,500 hrs. 3X rise. .008 MLL will be .024. __________________ Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time. Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes. Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911 Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3 RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty

10-04-2010, 10:44 AM	#79
PFC5 Former Super Moderator - RIP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 38,295	It has to do with the deepest black it can achieve no matter how you change the user or service menu settings because it is the pre-charge voltage that is changing. It does not effect your plasma though so no worries according to measurements taken. My 2008 Panasonic model is said to be effected also, but the PQ is still fantastic after 2.5 years and probably over 8,000 hours on mine. Any change on mine is slight and you would have to be looking for it to see anything without a meter on it from what I see. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

10-11-2010, 03:26 PM	#89
dsskid ISF Calibrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Age: 49 Posts: 4,946	And I'm saying that if your eyes cannot perceive the difference between .007 and .012 or .015, then why are you spending the additional money on buying a Panasonic? For those who can tell the difference between the two, you have every right to feel ripped off by Panasonic. __________________ Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time. Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes. Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911 Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3 RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty

10-04-2010, 10:30 AM	#78
pappylap Guest Posts: n/a	...Alright, maybe someone can help me out here or at least show my flaws in how I am approaching this perceived problem... ...Purely hypothetical mind you but let's assume for a minute that my KURO has the ability to reach a black level (referred to as BL from this point on) of 0.001fl I however have it calibrated and get the best results at a setting of say 0.12fl.....now lets assume my KURO has a minimal BL rise to say 0.008.....lets also assume that my now calibrated setting has also risen accordingly to 0.19 What prevents me from recalibrating my set back to the level I find most accurate of 0.12 since it still is capable of attaining a BL of 0.008.....Rising BL is there true, but is a non-factor in the enjoyment of my display.

10-06-2010, 07:43 AM	#87
shreder75 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 167	tell ya what...I'll let you know if my black levels rise in 3 years..because unless it blows up I sure as hell ain't replacing a $1600 TV in three years time! LOL I'm keepin' 'er until she disintegrates