The black level measurements of 2010 Panasonic plasmas compared to the competition

PFC5 · 07-01-2010, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

I don't have data from back then. As I stated previously, I did not have the proper equipment at that time to do so.

If I recall correctly, the issues from the time period you mention if I recall correctly were related to floating blacks, which are reported to have reared it's ugly head again in some of the 2010 Panasonic models, which I really don't want to bring up and for fear of starting WWII, or should I say WWIII, since HD DVD would be considered WWI, and Panasonic rising black issue WWII. Perhaps I can defer to the non-Panasonic Kool-aid drinking senior members, to better answer the question.

So you do not want to do research that YOU didn't notice this and want to refer to others as "kool-aid drinkers"?

FOr someone who wants to get the "facts" out there you seem to want to stop short now.

Here is a post from the other forum where someone noticed this with their 2006 model but still loves the PQ:

Quote:

Originally Posted by stjohns626

The later part of your comment made me laugh. But I just wanted to say that I have a 2006 Panasonic plasma that I bought on July 1, 2007. I am sure that my black levels have risen over the past 3 years. But I must say that my picture is still gorgeous. Yes, I can tell by the bars on the side of the screen that they are not ink black like they used to be but the picture has not suffered. The only reason I am thinking about upgrading to the G25 is because I want 1080p for blu-ray; a larger screen ( i have 37 inch), and the newer technology. Other than that, I would keep it. But you are right, the picture will still be beautiful even with the black levels rising.

I found this quickly in about 2 minutes. So people ARE posting about earlier models having this issue now that it is known which WOULD include your 2007 model and I wonder why even now you think there is not a problem (or wasn't until now) with YOUR model.

Could it be that what most owners are saying about it not being such a big issue and not being noticeable with actual content being true instead of us being "kool-aid drinkers" when even YOU as a ISF certified calibrator didn't notice it on your own Panasonic plasma?

I am leaving for a concert so I will not be able to respond anymore today about this but I look forward to you hopefully taking measurements and then I can research black levels from pro reviews on your model to see if they did rise on your model.

dsskid · 07-01-2010, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

So you do not want to do research that YOU didn't notice this and want to refer to others as "kool-aid drinkers"?

FOr someone who wants to get the "facts" out there you seem to want to stop short now.

Here is a post from the other forum where someone noticed this with their 2006 model but still loves the PQ:

I found this quickly in about 2 minutes. So people ARE posting about earlier models having this issue now that it is known which WOULD include your 2007 model and I wonder why even now you think there is not a problem (or wasn't until now) with YOUR model.

Could it be that what most owners are saying about it not being such a big issue and not being noticeable with actual content being true instead of us being "kool-aid drinkers" when even YOU as a ISF certified calibrator didn't notice it on your own Panasonic plasma?

I am leaving for a concert so I will not be able to respond anymore today about this but I look forward to you hopefully taking measurements and then I can research black levels from pro reviews on your model to see if they did rise on your model.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. I did not measure my panel within the first 3,000. Does it look as if my blacks have risen since I bought it. quite possibly, but then it would be heresay if I don't have data to back it up.
I get hammered enough around here when I post facts with backup data, and would be foolish to post information without data at this point. Not to mention 2007 models are not available for sale.

TwoPlusTwo · 07-01-2010, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

I did not measure my panel within the first 3,000. Does it look as if my blacks have risen since I bought it. quite possibly, but then it would be heresay if I don't have data to back it up.

So let me get this straight..you can't say for sure that you've had significant black-level rise on a 2007 model without breaking out measurement equipment?

Sounds to me like rising blacks aren't really troublesome at all!

dsskid · 07-01-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo

So let me get this straight..you can't say for sure that you've had significant black-level rise on a 2007 model without breaking out measurement equipment?

Sounds to me like rising blacks aren't really troublesome at all!

Do you have any idea how many displays I've looked at in the past three years besides my own? If you are asking me if it looks lighter to me, the answer is yes, and that could be because of all the newer displays I've viewed with deeper blacks, but witout data or concrete evidence, how can I make such accusations? There is such thing as intrrgrity, and if make accusations without being able to back it up, you lose yours rather quickly. Do you understand what I'm telling you?

TwoPlusTwo · 07-01-2010, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

Do you have any idea how many displays I've looked at in the past three years besides my own? If you are asking me if it looks lighter to me, the answer is yes, and that could be because of all the newer displays I've viewed with deeper blacks, but witout data or concrete evidence, how can I make such accusations? There is such thing as intrrgrity, and if make accusations without being able to back it up, you lose yours rather quickly. Do you understand what I'm telling you?

I don't understand what purported "accusation" you are afraid to make without data. If the "accusation" is that Panny black levels rise, then you are hardly at risk of losing any integrity because everybody knows that they do in fact rise. Panasonic has said it themselves...I even posted a quote from Panasonic earlier in the thread were they were talking about how this known problem has been addressed to some degree with the VT25 series.

What I've been saying throughout this entire discussion is that it's not something to be concerned with, and not a reason to not buy a Panny plasma. Yes, they will rise, but they start out black enough that even after the rise your set will still look good.

When we "Kool-Aid drinkers" recommend a Panny plasma to J6P in this forum, it is generally a pretty safe assumption that J6P is never going to take MLL measurements, but rather just enjoy the TV for it's superb PQ.

PannyFTW · 07-01-2010, 02:40 PM

It doesn't matter what your technology says. Sure, the levels do rise. And 3x may seem like a lot. But does it realy matter what the numbers say and what technology says? No. The fact is, it's all based on what you see with your eyes, not what numbers tell you. You don't need backed information to give an opinion

dsskid · 07-01-2010, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo

I don't understand what purported "accusation" you are afraid to make without data. If the "accusation" is that Panny black levels rise, then you are hardly at risk of losing any integrity because everybody knows that they do in fact rise. Panasonic has said it themselves...I even posted a quote from Panasonic earlier in the thread were they were talking about how this known problem has been addressed to some degree with the VT25 series.

How can I state that models are improperly engineered if I don't have data to support it? Are those the types of posts that you want to see around here? Panasonic called the rising black levels a "feature". A feature? If I remember correctly, they said the 2010s will rise, just slower. They are the only manufacturer that I know of that they ride at all, and my question is why? Why rise at all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo

What I've been saying throughout this entire discussion is that it's not something to be concerned with, and not a reason to not buy a Panny plasma. Yes, they will rise, but they start out black enough that even after the rise your set will still look good.

Again, this is where we differ. That statement is subjective. What doesn't concern you may concern another. At least we agree that it rises.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo

When we "Kool-Aid drinkers" recommend a Panny plasma to J6P in this forum, it is generally a pretty safe assumption that J6P is never going to take MLL measurements, but rather just enjoy the TV for it's superb PQ.

My point is that there are other alternatives, that always get shot down around here. Noone has any problem rattling off the other faults, and then the Panasonic faults get ignored, or are called overblown. Let's be fair about it is all.

TwoPlusTwo · 07-01-2010, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

My point is that there are other alternatives, that always get shot down around here. Noone has any problem rattling off the other faults, and then the Panasonic faults get ignored, or are called overblown. Let's be fair about it is all.

I agree with that; alternatives shouldn't be shot down solely on this basis that they are not manufactured by Panasonic.

Though Panny plasmas are still going to be recommended around here a lot for overall quality and value. And sometimes when an alternative is present, the Panny is still going to be recommended. Could you honestly not agree that the Panny is the way to go in this post??

Still you are right though...other plasmas exist that are not Panasonics. People around here will probably still recommend Panny plasmas as the "go-to" suggestion but that shouldn't mean that there isn't another choice to be considered.

dsskid · 07-01-2010, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo

I agree with that; alternatives shouldn't be shot down solely on this basis that they are not manufactured by Panasonic.

Though Panny plasmas are still going to be recommended around here a lot for overall quality and value. And sometimes when an alternative is present, the Panny is still going to be recommended. Could you honestly not agree that the Panny is the way to go in this post??

Still you are right though...other plasmas exist that are not Panasonics. People around here will probably still recommend Panny plasmas as the "go-to" suggestion but that shouldn't mean that there isn't another choice to be considered.

Fair enough

kharaa · 07-01-2010, 10:37 PM

@T+T

I think part of what he's talking about is like lets say a poster asks for a recommendation for a TV, and one of their conditions is "I want the most amazing blacks ever, without spending a ton of money"

the automatic recommendation around here is USUALLY the G25 (which i think everyone agrees is a amazing set, in the very top tier of any tv of any manufacturer or technology?).

However they reply "Oh okay, I had read about the panasonic, i'm a little concerned about the rising black levels."

the most common response here is "Well it's not that big of a deal, even after the black levels rise, they're still better than any other set out there, out of the box."

which if i've read ALL the data that dsskid has provided throughout all of this debate and the threads. (please correct me if i'm wrong dss.)

Is misinformation, and in somecases not true. that there are better plasma's for black levels out there than the panasonic models after the rise.

The second thing we keep hearing and is a pretty important, is that image retention on panasonics are no longer an issue

but again, in the data i beleive provided and if I understand correctly. that they are actually more prone to IR than they were before.

a couple of people have refuted this, but without any data, and is usually based on their own personal experience.

this is just the plasma vs plasma here.

This isn't including some of the things said regarding LCD tvs

another thing i've noticed is the power consumption debate, i did my own little bit of research here, and based on panasonics OWN data, is 327w rated power consumption, on the 42 inch G25.

where as data from c-net puts the power consumption on the 46 inch Sony Bravia EX700 at 87 watts.

this is a far cry from the "only uses 10 percent more energy" than an LCD i've heard before.

there is a clear bias, and alot of misinformation out there.

now i'm of course not accusing ANYONE here; as most of the people that one would say are heavily biased and not objective, are VERY helpful people, whom i think are very intelligent.

But again... DSSKID is on to something here.

TwoPlusTwo · 07-03-2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kharaa

"I want the most amazing blacks ever, without spending a ton of money".

Find somebody with a KURO Elite and rob that person.

Loves2Watch · 07-03-2010, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kharaa

@T+T

I think part of what he's talking about is like lets say a poster asks for a recommendation for a TV, and one of their conditions is "I want the most amazing blacks ever, without spending a ton of money"

the automatic recommendation around here is USUALLY the G25 (which i think everyone agrees is a amazing set, in the very top tier of any tv of any manufacturer or technology?).

However they reply "Oh okay, I had read about the panasonic, i'm a little concerned about the rising black levels."

the most common response here is "Well it's not that big of a deal, even after the black levels rise, they're still better than any other set out there, out of the box."

which if i've read ALL the data that dsskid has provided throughout all of this debate and the threads. (please correct me if i'm wrong dss.)

Is misinformation, and in somecases not true. that there are better plasma's for black levels out there than the panasonic models after the rise.

The second thing we keep hearing and is a pretty important, is that image retention on panasonics are no longer an issue

but again, in the data i beleive provided and if I understand correctly. that they are actually more prone to IR than they were before.

a couple of people have refuted this, but without any data, and is usually based on their own personal experience.

this is just the plasma vs plasma here.

This isn't including some of the things said regarding LCD tvs

another thing i've noticed is the power consumption debate, i did my own little bit of research here, and based on panasonics OWN data, is 327w rated power consumption, on the 42 inch G25.

where as data from c-net puts the power consumption on the 46 inch Sony Bravia EX700 at 87 watts.

this is a far cry from the "only uses 10 percent more energy" than an LCD i've heard before.

there is a clear bias, and alot of misinformation out there.

now i'm of course not accusing ANYONE here; as most of the people that one would say are heavily biased and not objective, are VERY helpful people, whom i think are very intelligent.

But again... DSSKID is on to something here.

All other things aside because the debate has gone on long enough, the power levels you are quoting are at full power which plasma TV's rarely use. Power is a variable with plasma displays so sometimes very little is used and sometimes more. LCD displays on the other hand use the maximum amount of power available at all times.

So...when you average out the power used by a plasma display over a month compared to a LCD display you will find that they are VERY CLOSE.

Hope this clears things up for you.

gregergie · 07-08-2010, 11:01 PM

Good information for me. I am interesting on Panasonic right now.

IlikeHDTVs · 07-14-2010, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo

So let me get this straight..you can't say for sure that you've had significant black-level rise on a 2007 model without breaking out measurement equipment?

Sounds to me like rising blacks aren't really troublesome at all!

There not troublesome. Between my entire family we have 4 different Panasonic Plasma models, from 5 years ago to 10th gen, and Ive been hearing about this black level issue, and I simply cannot see it on any set. Maybe they do rise a tad, who knows. The black level, color saturation, and punch has remained just as quality as day one. If the blacks were truly that bad, all those qualities would be effected.

Plipsman · 07-14-2010, 09:03 AM

Let's be honest, all of these TVs are pretty amazing. I know it's fun to discuss all of the little differences between the TVs, but they are all great technology. Compare them to a 20-year old TV and realize how silly we all sound for talking about the slightest amount of black level differences.

07-01-2010, 02:40 PM	#51
PannyFTW What is HD? Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 1	It doesn't matter what your technology says. Sure, the levels do rise. And 3x may seem like a lot. But does it realy matter what the numbers say and what technology says? No. The fact is, it's all based on what you see with your eyes, not what numbers tell you. You don't need backed information to give an opinion

07-08-2010, 11:01 PM	#58
gregergie My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8	Good information for me. I am interesting on Panasonic right now.

07-14-2010, 09:03 AM	#60
Plipsman A couch and an HDTV to go please. Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 14	Let's be honest, all of these TVs are pretty amazing. I know it's fun to discuss all of the little differences between the TVs, but they are all great technology. Compare them to a 20-year old TV and realize how silly we all sound for talking about the slightest amount of black level differences.