The black level measurements of 2010 Panasonic plasmas compared to the competition

cccsdad · 12-17-2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

I explained all that in my response to your PM asking for my opinion. The Samsung 50" measures a higher MLL than the 58" and 63" models, which measure .007-.008 after firmware, and deactivating cinema smooth. Cnet tested the 50", not the 58" & 63" Samsung models. So out of the box the 58" & 65" VT25 will have deeper blacks than the 58" & 63" C8000. Not the case after the rises.

None of this will matter once the 2011 models hit the shelves, unless Panasonic doesn't fix it in the new models.

Okay, lets say the V series out of the box is at .004 and the Sammy is at .007, it would be almost impossible to tell the difference under the lighting conditions in a retail showroom agreed? So how come so many people can?

Are you telling me that the MLL on the 50" Panny 8000 is 2.25 more than on the 58" 8000? What would cause this, aren't they the same panels?

PFC5 · 12-17-2010, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

Well in Sept their rep said it wouldn't rise, and it did. Are you going to believe the amount?

I do not recall hearing them say it would not rise. If I remember correctly they said the problem is not an issue like it was in 2009 models. I would say that what we know so far it IS a true statement since the rises would have already occurred with much less hours by now if they worked like the 2009 models which is an admitted mistake.

Again lets not clog up this thread with this rehash yet again. Post in one of the numerous other threads where this is already being discussed and get this thread back on track please.

DTV TiVo Dealer · 12-17-2010, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

The black rise is a "feature" built into Panasonic's plasma displays is very real.

Sorry, but I don't feel it's fare for you to say this and certainly Panasonic has never said anything like that.

The feature Panasonic's patent claims is image stability and keeping the discharge Probability and discharge delays in line with the panel's original design specifications. This is something no other pdp can do.

Now it's true that in the first half of 2009 the voltage increased too rapidly, which caused black level decreased. However, this has been fixed on all 2009 production after April 2009 and for the current 2010 line.

So today's Panasonic pdps still enjoy the feature of keeping the discharge Probability and discharge delays in line with the panel's original design specifications, with significantly less reduction of black level and over a much slower time frame. So much so that it would take several years of normal use to have a small change that would still keep the black level better than the next best panel.

To back-up my professional opinion here's a quote from David Katzmaier of CNET Editors' note, October 7, 2010: After about 1,500 hours the black-level performance of our TC-P50VT25 review sample has worsened, but not enough to affect our overall performance score. According to Panasonic it should not increase much further. Based on the strength of its performance against the competition, we have awarded the Panasonic TC-PVT25 series our Editors' Choice among plasma TVs for 2010.

-Robert

dsskid · 12-17-2010, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer

Sorry, but I don't feel it's fare for you to say this and certainly Panasonic has never said anything like that.

The feature Panasonic's patent claims is image stability and keeping the discharge Probability and discharge delays in line with the panel's original design specifications. This is something no other pdp can do.

Now it's true that in the first half of 2009 the voltage increased too rapidly, which caused black level decreased. However, this has been fixed on all 2009 production after April 2009 and for the current 2010 line.

So today's Panasonic pdps still enjoy the feature of keeping the discharge Probability and discharge delays in line with the panel's original design specifications, with significantly less reduction of black level and over a much slower time frame. So much so that it would take several years of normal use to have a small change that would still keep the black level better than the next best panel.

To back-up my professional opinion here's a quote from David Katzmaier of CNET Editors' note, October 7, 2010: After about 1,500 hours the black-level performance of our TC-P50VT25 review sample has worsened, but not enough to affect our overall performance score. According to Panasonic it should not increase much further. Based on the strength of its performance against the competition, we have awarded the Panasonic TC-PVT25 series our Editors' Choice among plasma TVs for 2010.

-Robert

It's not fare for me to say that the increase in MLL was labeled a feature by Panasonic?

Quote:

Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs deliver exceptional picture performance throughout the lifetime of these products. Various elements and material characteristics of all electronic displays change with use over time. In order to achieve the optimal picture performance throughout the life of the set, Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an automatic control which adjusts an internal driving voltage at predetermined intervals of operational hours.

As a result of this automatic voltage adjustment, background brightness will increase from its initial value. After several years of typical use, the internal material characteristics will stabilize and no additional automatic voltage adjustments are required. The Black Level at this stabilized point will yield excellent picture performance.

The newest Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an improved automatic control which applies the voltage adjustments in smaller increments. This results in a more gradual change in the Black Level over time.

Quote:

CNET editor David Katzmaier had a long talk with Panasonic about the issue. Basically the company states there will be no fix for the black level rise as “there’s nothing to fix.”. These are his words below:

“Since the TVs work as designed, there’s nothing to fix.”

That answer comes from Bob Perry, Senior VP of Panasonic Consumer Electronics Company, in reply to a follow-up question CNET asked in response to the company’s February 3 statement addressing reports about the company’s plasma TVs losing their deep black levels over time.

That statement maintained that the plasmas’ black levels are designed to brighten over time (“background brightness will increase from its initial value”) to compensate for the normal aging process, but suggested that picture quality was still “excellent” after the compensation period was complete and the “internal material characteristics…stabilize.”

In a February 5 phone call with CNET (also attended by CNET editors and Bill Schindler, an independent engineering consultant for Panasonic), Perry confirmed that the company has no plans to fix anything related to the black level-related complaints with its current plasmas. He echoed the explanation in the original statement and elaborated somewhat on the black level increase. He likened it to rotating the tires on a car–an example of standard maintenance–and said that some users noticed the change “because they have trained eyes,” although he also said that the change is subtle “even among trained experts.”

He did not go into specifics on many points, however, claiming that some answers might give away trade secrets and that lack of standards for black level measurement make it “very difficult to make meaningful comparisons.”

http://www.hippotechsolutions.com/?p=1853
Or that the MLL at least doubles?

Quote:

The most recent results of measurements taken by CNET confirm that after a few hundred days of on time, the company's 2010 plasma TVs do lose some of their ability to produce a deep shade of black, which is a major factor in picture quality. Even after the loss, however, both can still achieve comparatively deep black levels, and according to Panasonic that shouldn't change significantly after an initial period.

We've been testing two 2010 models, the TC-P50VT25 and the TC-P50G20, since we received the review samples from Panasonic earlier this year, and until now we haven't measured any increase in the brightness of "black" (known as MLL, or Minimum Luminance Level).

However, after being run for what amounts a small fraction of their expected lifespans, each TV has shown an MLL increase. "Black" on the VT25 went from 0.004 to 0.007 footlamberts (ftl) after 1,543 total hours (the equivalent of 297 days at the average daily rate of 5.2 hours), while the G20 increased from 0.007 to 0.012 after 2,411 total hours (464 days).

This behavior was expected, and explained by Panasonic as a normal part of its plasma TVs' operation when we first documented it with 2009 models. The company previously said in a statement that its 2010 plasmas would incorporate a "more gradual change in black levels over time" than the 2009 models.

Response from Panasonic
This time around we were able to get much more specific information from Panasonic on the aging process. We spoke to Bill Schindler, a consultant and former vice president for the company, who told us that our 2010 review samples were operating within specification and, what's more, shouldn't change much more over the rest of their lifespans.

"Basically I was pleased to see your numbers are very much in line with what I received from the factory," Schindler told me. "You're basically at the end of the process on the G20. There will be one more tiny adjustment that will happen in the future, between 1,000 and 2,000 hours later, after which [MLL] will stabilize for the lifespan of the panel."

He characterized that adjustment as quite difficult to perceive and resulting in a change of, at most, 15 to 20 percent higher MLL--which, according to our math, would put the G20 at 0.014 ftl after the process is complete. He stressed that the numbers are approximate, however, and went on to say that the MLL might even improve slightly as the panel stabilizes.

Schindler didn't specify the exact stabilization point, but per his estimate we peg it at a maximum of 4,500 hours, which works out to 2.37 years. That time span jibes with what we were told by Panasonic Vice President Bob Perry in February: "...it would be safe to assume that around three years, more or less, is a reasonable approximation."

Perry was referring to the 2009 models at the time, but Schindler repeated today that the 2010 models have a much more gradual rate of MLL increase, meaning that the steps are finer and shouldn't result in any visible "jump" (and for what it's worth we didn't see any abrupt rise in MLL on any Panasonic plasma ourselves).

"Yes, it's more gradual this year," Schindler said, "and also doesn't go as far in terms of total span. Our engineers were able to become less aggressive with the voltage increase in 2010 and maintain the same reliability over time, which is their main objective."

As for the VT25, Schindler said it should follow the same curve of MLL increase as the G20. He expected that perhaps we would see one more small rise in MLL, after which it would stabilize. "At 1,500 hours you're on the cusp with that one, and it's impossible to tell whether you've already seen [the rise] or if it's about to happen."

According to our own estimates, based on the discussion with Schindler, we would expect that the "final" MLL for our VT25 sample would be 0.009-0.01 ftl at most. He was careful not to confirm or deny this estimate since, as he stressed several times, Panasonic (along with all other TV makers) does not specify black level.

Again, it's worth noting that these measurements are subject to error--we routinely saw variations of 0.001-0.002 ftl in our lab, so the numbers cited above are averages of several measurements. Accuracy depends on good instruments, a completely dark room and careful attention to content and picture settings.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20018722-1.html

Do you guys actually think I make this stuff up? I'm just reporting the findings. I don't like it any more than the other guy.

So they continue to rise and found to at least double, with an additional rise still to come. Whether this is significant is dependent on the person purchasing the display, not for us to decide for them.

And I'm not even getting into the floating black issue. Why not talk to Elwaylite if you don't think it's an issue with the 2010 Panasonics?

He has written several posts in one of the other forums regarding his experiences with his S2.

dsskid · 12-17-2010, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

I do not recall hearing them say it would not rise. If I remember correctly they said the problem is not an issue like it was in 2009 models. I would say that what we know so far it IS a true statement since the rises would have already occurred with much less hours by now if they worked like the 2009 models which is an admitted mistake.

Again lets not clog up this thread with this rehash yet again. Post in one of the numerous other threads where this is already being discussed and get this thread back on track please.

Look at the video. He stated that if it has been reported then they won't rise.

If you don't want me to respond here, don't keep refuting it here.

dsskid · 12-17-2010, 04:48 PM

You forgot to also move your response.

TwoPlusTwo · 12-17-2010, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

http://www.hippotechsolutions.com/?p=1853
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20018722-1.html

Nice find dsskid. Good article.

Here is what the above link says about rising blacks:

Quote:

What does this mean? It means the black level rise is by design to help compensate for the aging of the panel. Does this mean you should hold off on buying a Panasonic plasma? In our opinion no. Even with elevated blacks (if you notice it) the NEO plasma’s are still competitive with sets from Samsung and just about anything else out there with liquid crystal technology so don’t sweat it. Don’t quote us on this, but just about all plasma displays do something similar to compensate for phosphor wear so it’s really nothing new, however it’s usually done in a way thats imperceptible to the owner. Extreme videophiles may be disappointed with the news, but perhaps the companies upcoming flagship VT25 display will make us all forget.

PhilipC · 12-17-2010, 05:10 PM

After rise blacks will still look better then competitions so I don't see what the big deal is here.
The blacks look great now & will after rise.

Adding,
It would be nice if Panasonic released firmware preventing rise putting such topic to rest.

TwoPlusTwo · 12-17-2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilipC

It would be nice if Panasonic released firmware preventing rise putting such topic to rest.

There are some people who say it either can't or won't be fixed via FW...

PhilipC · 12-17-2010, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo

There are some people who say it either can't or won't be fixed via FW...

ya Ive come across dozens of post over at AVS claiming impossible never will happen.
There has to be command that reads display time that enables rise.
That being the case they should be able to push FW to disable it.
Will they?
Time will tell I guess

DTV TiVo Dealer · 12-17-2010, 06:40 PM

I would not quote anything from Bob Perry. Bob is a sales manager, not a technical person by any stretch of anyone's imagination. I know this man and I can tell you he is not a very popular person in our business and has worked for about 4 or 5 different CE suppliers in the past year. In fact, Panasonic fired Mr. Perry just after he made these unauthorized remarks.

Mr. Perry is no authority whatsoever.

-Robert

PFC5 · 12-18-2010, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo

Nice find dsskid. Good article.

Here is what the above link says about rising blacks:

That first link quoted is for the 2009 models not the 2010 models BTW.

Here is a quote fro the second link to be re-quoted again:

Quote:

The bottom line
Despite the near doubling of MLL on the VT25 and G20 we've measured so far, both still exhibit some of the best overall black level performance available on the market today. In order of "blackest" initial black, the other 2010 plasmas in our lab at press time include the Samsung PN50C7000 (0.017 MLL), Samsung PN50C8000 (0.019), and LG PX950 (0.030). All of these numbers are higher (worse) than our estimated "final" MLL of either Panasonic panel.

Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...#ixzz18SM1tu95

Look at how high the LG plasma is!

Why isn't anyone talking about the LG MML being so high, but still recommending them?

PFC5 · 12-18-2010, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer

I would not quote anything from Bob Perry. Bob is a sales manager, not a technical person by any stretch of anyone's imagination. I know this man and I can tell you he is not a very popular person in our business and has worked for about 4 or 5 different CE suppliers in the past year. In fact, Panasonic fired Mr. Perry just after he made these unauthorized remarks.

Mr. Perry is no authority whatsoever.

-Robert

He was speaking about the 2009 models as well. I do remember that guys name associated with a couple of companies over the years here and elsewhere. How does he keep finding jobs at his rate of firing from companies?

dsskid · 12-18-2010, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

That first link quoted is for the 2009 models not the 2010 models BTW.

Here is a quote fro the second link to be re-quoted again:

Look at how high the LG plasma is!

Why isn't anyone talking about the LG MML being so high, but still recommending them?

If other companies panels changed within a short period after owning then, I would bring it up as well. LG's black levels don't increase, nor does Samsung. What you see is what you get from day one. You cannot say the same about Panasonic plasmas. That is what this thread is about. I never claimed that LG had better black levels.

dsskid · 12-18-2010, 07:10 AM

I really can't understand what you guys are debating or find you need to defend.

Is it:

You don't believe that the black levels rise in the 2010 models?
That they double?
Or that they will go beyond doubling?

Lets address each one that you're concerned with.

12-17-2010, 04:48 PM	#321
dsskid ISF Calibrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Age: 49 Posts: 4,957	You forgot to also move your response. __________________ Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time. Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes. Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911 Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3 RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty

12-17-2010, 05:10 PM	#323
PhilipC hui o he'e nalu Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Virginia Beach/Hatteras Nc Posts: 205	After rise blacks will still look better then competitions so I don't see what the big deal is here. The blacks look great now & will after rise. Adding, It would be nice if Panasonic released firmware preventing rise putting such topic to rest. __________________ Panasonic G20 50'' Pansonic Blu-ray Player DMP-BD65K Pioneer-770W 7.1-Ch Receiver-VSX-1020-K Polk Audio RM6750 Speakers Directv HR24 DVR PS3 160GB - COD4 HTC EVO 4G R.I.P PFC5

12-17-2010, 06:40 PM	#326
DTV TiVo Dealer ValueElectronics.com Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Scarsdale, NY Posts: 614	I would not quote anything from Bob Perry. Bob is a sales manager, not a technical person by any stretch of anyone's imagination. I know this man and I can tell you he is not a very popular person in our business and has worked for about 4 or 5 different CE suppliers in the past year. In fact, Panasonic fired Mr. Perry just after he made these unauthorized remarks. Mr. Perry is no authority whatsoever. -Robert __________________ VE Advanced a/v technology dealer

12-18-2010, 07:10 AM	#330
dsskid ISF Calibrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Age: 49 Posts: 4,957	I really can't understand what you guys are debating or find you need to defend. Is it: You don't believe that the black levels rise in the 2010 models? That they double? Or that they will go beyond doubling? Lets address each one that you're concerned with. __________________ Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time. Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes. Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911 Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3 RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty