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The black level measurements of 2010 Panasonic plasmas compared to the competition

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Old 06-26-2010, 06:35 AM   #16
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You are corrected, the larger Panny sizes are less affected than the smaller ones. But just to be clear, they ALL rise. This is what Panasonic programmed them to do.

Interesting that Cleveland Plasma didn't do a followup review after 1500 hours. I'd be interested in what Cleveland plasma had to say about the Panasonic's measured levels after the rise. By the way, my Sony Z5100 measures .0145 at 0 stimulus before the backlight shuts off, which is a hellova lot better than the blacks after the Panny rises.
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Old 06-26-2010, 07:52 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post
You are corrected, the larger Panny sizes are less affected than the smaller ones. But just to be clear, they ALL rise. This is what Panasonic programmed them to do.

Interesting that Cleveland Plasma didn't do a followup review after 1500 hours. I'd be interested in what Cleveland plasma had to say about the Panasonic's measured levels after the rise. By the way, my Sony Z5100 measures .0145 at 0 stimulus before the backlight shuts off, which is a hellova lot better than the blacks after the Panny rises.
That may be true but viewing your TV with a plasma, side by side does show the benefit(s) of a plasma display.
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:51 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Loves2Watch View Post
That may be true but viewing your TV with a plasma, side by side does show the benefit(s) of a plasma display.
I believe the subject was black levels. I'm not debating the pros and cons of Plasma and LCD.
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Old 06-26-2010, 12:37 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post
You are corrected, the larger Panny sizes are less affected than the smaller ones. But just to be clear, they ALL rise. This is what Panasonic programmed them to do.

Interesting that Cleveland Plasma didn't do a followup review after 1500 hours. I'd be interested in what Cleveland plasma had to say about the Panasonic's measured levels after the rise. By the way, my Sony Z5100 measures .0145 at 0 stimulus before the backlight shuts off, which is a hellova lot better than the blacks after the Panny rises.
But that Sony Z5100 has ambient backlighting that adjusts so the black levels float and go lighter as the scene gets brighter or has brighter parts. That is a great LCD though none the less. I would like to see a follow up as well.

My point with creating this sticky thread is that there IS a lot of miss information floating around about this black level issue. It is not as bad as many people make it out to be. No doubt this IS something undesirable to have happen, but it is way overblown on both the fact that Panasonic starts out much lower with black levels than other plasma mfg, so at worse it will just reach around the same black levels in the end as the other brands, but Panasonic has the highest reliability ratings, and with the 2010 THX models (in that mode) have colors, etc are damn near perfect out of the box.

Blacks are only one aspect of what makes a HDTV good or not. Plasmas also have better motion handling with fast movie scenes/sports, etc since they have pixel response times about 2,000x faster than the fastest LCD panels, have much better viewing angles, and more natural colors in general as well.

No display is perfect and no tech is perfect either so far. LCDs have their time/use, and plasmas have theirs. Owning both and since I do not have a sun room, for my use plasma beats LCD overall on many levels, and Panasonic plasmas beat the other mfg still making plasmas now that Pioneer is out of the display business and is no longer making plasmas. One of the reasons they got out was that they generally cost 2x the money compared to Panasonic so they had a small market share as a result because most people cannot afford to pay twice the money for the improvements Pioneer offered that most average consumers couldn't see or thought was worth paying alomost twice the price for.

Lets try to keep this thread on track and about the black levels and not get this into a LCD vs plasma debate as this is done in many other threads already. I just wanted the sticky so the info was easily available for those who have heard about the black level issue and to get the info and so if they don't see the sticky then we could easily point to this sticky to provide it.
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Old 06-27-2010, 03:31 PM   #20
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But that Sony Z5100 has ambient backlighting that adjusts so the black levels float and go lighter as the scene gets brighter or has brighter parts. That is a great LCD though none the less. I would like to see a follow up as well.

My point with creating this sticky thread is that there IS a lot of miss information floating around about this black level issue. It is not as bad as many people make it out to be. No doubt this IS something undesirable to have happen, but it is way overblown on both the fact that Panasonic starts out much lower with black levels than other plasma mfg, so at worse it will just reach around the same black levels in the end as the other brands, but Panasonic has the highest reliability ratings, and with the 2010 THX models (in that mode) have colors, etc are damn near perfect out of the box.

Blacks are only one aspect of what makes a HDTV good or not. Plasmas also have better motion handling with fast movie scenes/sports, etc since they have pixel response times about 2,000x faster than the fastest LCD panels, have much better viewing angles, and more natural colors in general as well.

No display is perfect and no tech is perfect either so far. LCDs have their time/use, and plasmas have theirs. Owning both and since I do not have a sun room, for my use plasma beats LCD overall on many levels, and Panasonic plasmas beat the other mfg still making plasmas now that Pioneer is out of the display business and is no longer making plasmas. One of the reasons they got out was that they generally cost 2x the money compared to Panasonic so they had a small market share as a result because most people cannot afford to pay twice the money for the improvements Pioneer offered that most average consumers couldn't see or thought was worth paying alomost twice the price for.

Lets try to keep this thread on track and about the black levels and not get this into a LCD vs plasma debate as this is done in many other threads already. I just wanted the sticky so the info was easily available for those who have heard about the black level issue and to get the info and so if they don't see the sticky then we could easily point to this sticky to provide it.
I thought that I did.
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:18 AM   #21
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Yes you did and even said it yourself. I wasn't directing it at you but as a general statement of what should be posted & not posted in this thread.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:01 AM   #22
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Default Black levels of various displays ---- out of the box.

These are the black levels right out of the box, as reported by various reviewers/calibrators. It does not take into account Panasonic's rising black levels. Rising blacks affect the Panasonic Larger Panels (58", 65") less.

You can look at the chart in my previous post to see how much Panasonic plasama blacks have reported to have risen, and compare that to other panels right out ofthe box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post
In some comparisons, Panasonic's blacks are still better, in some they are not.

P.S. According to reknown calibrator D-Nice, 2010 Panasonics will also rise.

Quote:
Black level measurements of recent LCDs and Plasmas....ENJOY!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

After searching (and not finding) a list of black levels for recent popular flat panel TVs, I figured I would make a handy list of my own that others could use too

I compiled measurements from various online reviews which I list beside the TV

Pioneer Plasma

4280(avsforum) 0.007fL
5080(avsforum) 0.006fL
5010(avsforum) 0.004fL
PRO 110(avsforum) 0.004fL
6020 (avsforum) 0.001fL
PRO 111 (avsforum) 0.001fL
PRO 101 (avsforum) 0.0005fL
PRO 141 (avsforum) 0.001fL
KRP 500M (avsforum) 0.0005fL

Panasonic Plasma

TC-42PX80(flatpanelshd) 0.037fL
TH-50PZ800U(Tom Huffman) 0.015fL
TC-P54V10(chadB) 0.007fL
G10(flatpanelshd) 0.0087fL
S2(chadB) 0.009fL
G20(chadB) 0.0083fL
50VT20(hdtvtest.co.uk) 0.0026fL
TH-65VX100U(hometheatermag) 0.005fL

Samsung Plasma

PN58B650(Tom Huffman) 0.012fL
PN50B860(hometheatermag) 0.020fL
PN50C7000(chadB) 0.026fL
PN58C8000(avsforum) 0.016fL
PN63C550(chadB) 0.011fL

Samsung LCD

LN55A950(hometheatermag) 0.003fL
LN52A750(Tom Huffman) 0.02fL
LN55B8000(Tom Huffman) 0.004fL
LN55B7000(hometheatermag) 0.002fL
UN55B8500(hometheatermag) 0.001fL
UNxxC5000(Tom Huffman) 0.006fL
UN40C6000(flatpanelshd) 0.0145fL
UN46C8000(hometheatermag) 0.001fL
UN40C650(hdtvtest.co.uk) 0.0086fL

LG Plasma

50PG60(hometheatermag) 0.033fL
60PS80(hometheatermag) 0.023fL
50PK550(chadB) 0.0132fL
50PK750(chadB) 0.026fL
50PK950(flatpanelshd) 0.0116fL

LG LCD

55LE8500(flatpanelshd) <0.0058fL
47LH90(hometheatermag) 0.001fL
SL80(flatpanelshd) 0.04fL
42LH40(hometheatermag) 0.022fL

SONY LCD

52XBR4(hometheatermag) 0.029fL
Z5100(flatpanelhd) 0.0145fL
W5100(hdtvtest.co.uk) 0.0146 fL
NX700(flatpanelhd) 0.0145fL
XBR8(hometheatermag) 0.001fL

Sharp LCD

LC46D85U(hometheatermag) 0.037fL
LC52XS1U(hometheatermag) 0.001fL
LC-60E77UN(hometheatermag) 0.010fL
LE820(flatpanelshd) 0.0116fL

Toshiba LCD

46SV670U(hometheatermag) <0.001
52XV545U(hometheatermag) 0.013fL
42ZV650U(hometheatermag) 0.039fL

Vizio LCD&Plasma

VP505XVT(hometheatermag) 0.014fL
VF550XVT(hometheatermag) 0.029fL
SV420M(hometheatermag) 0.024fL
VF551XVT(hometheatermag) 0.002fL

http://hdtvbychadb.com/reviews.htm
http://www.hometheatermag.com/3d-flat-panels/
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/reviews.php
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk
http://www.displaycalibrationonline.com/reviews.asp

Here is a calculator to convert between candelas/square meter and foot-lamberts.
http://www.unitconversion.org/lumina...onversion.html
-KLee
http://www./avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1250816
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:23 PM   #23
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Regarding rising blacks, this is a direct quote from Panasonic regarding the VT25 series:

Quote:
And reducing the electrical pre-discharge that causes graying has greatly enhanced black gradation.
So it would seem that they are working on it.
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:56 AM   #24
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Acknowleding it is a big step. Hopefully it will not happen in their 2011 models, but I still feel bad for the ones who bought/buy the models years affected. Panasonic should provide a fix for them.
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Old 07-01-2010, 10:16 AM   #25
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Acknowleding it is a big step. Hopefully it will not happen in their 2011 models, but I still feel bad for the ones who bought/buy the models years affected. Panasonic should provide a fix for them.
The VT25 is a 2010 model...the point is that they have already started working on it now.

Oh, and btw...regarding the VT25, I own one and the blacks on mine are so mind-melting awesome that they would have to rise to a very absurd level before I would care in the least.

And I don't feel bad for people who purchased earlier models...because I am one of those people. I have a G10 with mega-huge hours on it and the blacks are still black. Quite frankly, I think that "rising Panny blacks" is somewhere in between "an overblown minor probem" and "internet hysteria."

My
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Old 07-01-2010, 10:21 AM   #26
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The VT25 is a 2010 model...the point is that they have already started working on it now.

Oh, and btw...regarding the VT25, I have one and the blacks on mine are so mind-melting awesome that they would have to rise to a very absurd level before I would care in the least.

And I don't feel bad for people who purchased earlier models...because I am one of those people. I have a G10 with mega-huge hours on it and the blacks are still black. Quite frankly, I think that "rising Panny blacks" is somewhere in between "an overblown minor probem" and "internet hysteria."

My
I have a 2008 model that is also effected and based on how mine has changed this issue is so far blown out of proportion unless the 2009 models are much worse in how light they get compared to 2008 models. I do see a slight change in black levels but it is only in the black bars for wider movies that appear slightly lighter than I remember them. The PQ is still great IMO, and that of everyone that sees my TV.
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Old 07-01-2010, 10:39 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo View Post
The VT25 is a 2010 model...the point is that they have already started working on it now.

Oh, and btw...regarding the VT25, I own one and the blacks on mine are so mind-melting awesome that they would have to rise to a very absurd level before I would care in the least.

And I don't feel bad for people who purchased earlier models...because I am one of those people. I have a G10 with mega-huge hours on it and the blacks are still black. Quite frankly, I think that "rising Panny blacks" is somewhere in between "an overblown minor probem" and "internet hysteria."

My
Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5 View Post
I have a 2008 model that is also effected and based on how mine has changed this issue is so far blown out of proportion unless the 2009 models are much worse in how light they get compared to 2008 models. I do see a slight change in black levels but it is only in the black bars for wider movies that appear slightly lighter than I remember them. The PQ is still great IMO, and that of everyone that sees my TV.
Not saying it's not a still a good picture, just stating that it's going to rise as much as 3X after the first few thousand hours.

I know, you both hardly notice it, and neither do your friends, which is great, you're not sensitive to it, but to many others it's more noticeable, and it's not what they paid for, and they are entitled to have it fixed.

I'm not even going to go into the floating blacks on the 2010 models.

End of story.
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Old 07-01-2010, 10:42 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo View Post
Regarding rising blacks, this is a direct quote from Panasonic regarding the VT25 series:



So it would seem that they are working on it.
Funny how you created a thread on wanting a cease-fire on the rising blacks issue, and then open the scab by posting about it again on this thread.
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Old 07-01-2010, 10:45 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post
I'm not even going to go into the floating blacks on the 2010 models.
I am unaware of what kind of "floating blacks" problem that I'm supposed to be bothered by on my 2010 VT25. What exactly is it that's supposed to irritate me so much?

All of my experience with the set has been a constant "WOW!" factor. If my blacks are floating, I haven't noticed it. What exactly are my puny eyes supposed to be seeing? As of right now, I'd say that the set is the best that I've personally ever seen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post
Funny how you created a thread on wanting a cease-fire on the rising blacks issue, and then open the scab by posting about it again on this thread.
I just wanted a cease-fire discussing it in other people's threads. We can talk about it in this thread here all day every day.
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Old 07-01-2010, 10:47 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo View Post
I am unaware of what kind of "floating blacks" problem that I'm supposed to be bothered by on my 2010 VT25. What exactly is it that's supposed to irritate me so much?

All of my experience with the set has been a constant "WOW!" factor. If my blacks are floating, I haven't noticed it. What exactly are my puny eyes supposed to be seeing? As of right now, I'd say that the set is the best that I've personally ever seen...
Oh yeah, I forgot....If you don't see it, it doesn't exist.
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