High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource

Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource > High Definition Viewing Mediums, HDTVs > Flat-Panel TVs
Rules HDTV Forum Gallery LINK TO US! RSS - High Def Forum AddThis Feed Button AddThis Social Bookmark Button Groups

Flat-Panel TVs Plasma, LCD RSS - Flat-Panel TVs

Do Plasmas have motion jutter?

Reply
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-20-2010, 06:44 PM   #1
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 236
Default Do Plasmas have motion jutter?

I was reading reviews from the Panny S2 and here is what someone said about motion jutter.

"I got this TV because of all the hype surrounding the new Panasonic line of Plasma TV's, i use to hate them mainly because of the burn in, and most were only 720p. Upon buying this one i was leary because of the 600hz that is divided up into 60hz throughout the TV to (supposedly) reduce image judder and motion blur. Well i didnt notice much blur but the jutter is just awful and is the same as any old 60hz LCD i have seen on the market. I have been spoiled by the new 120hz motion flow on the new LCDs and must say that i just can't get use to the old style 60hz again."

Is this true the 600 hz is divided into 60hz throughout the tv?

If true does this mean LCD 120 hz tv's are better?
Klaista2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2010, 08:54 PM   #2
Former Super Moderator
 
Loves2Watch's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In Flux
Posts: 20,284
Default

All of that was absolute crap from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Uneducated in this technology to say the least.

Motion flow actually adds artifacts to the picture and degrades the quality.
__________________
It's always time for pie
Live everyday as if it was your last and plan on living forever...
Loves2Watch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2010, 09:02 PM   #3
Every day is Friday
 
oblioman's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Hooooterville
Posts: 9,291
Default

People never cease to amaze me. Spoiled by 120hz motion flow??? Just glad me old plasma doesn't have to put up with the 120-240 motion sickness crap. LCD HDTV's be fine,,,just not as good as plasma. period.
oblioman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2010, 07:00 AM   #4
I bleed for HD
 

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,271
Default

I am not sure about 'jutter' but judder comes from when a camera pans while filming at 24fps (film)the speed of the film capture is not able to adequately capture the motion(pan) and jagged lines are introduced. It is not display dependent. Displays that show 24fps (48,72,96, hz displays) show a little smoother motion by eliminating the motion artifacts sometimes associated with 3:2 pulldown.

This may help http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm
__________________
HT- Panasonic TH-50PZ800U 1080p plasma, Panasonic PT-AX200u LCD projector, Elite Vmax Electric 100' screen, Pioneer Elite SC-71 AVR, Paradigm Titan Monitor v5 fronts, Paradigm CC-190 v6 center, Paradigm Atom Monitors v5 surrounds(x4), HSU research VTF-2 sub, HTPC/Gaming rig, Sony BDP-S550 blu-ray, Uverse HD-DVR, Roku 2

Bedroom: Insignia NS-lcd26, Samsung BDP-1400 blu-ray
Den - Vizio 20" 1080p LCD + Samsung BD-p1600


Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Albert Einstein

Last edited by jkkyler; 06-21-2010 at 07:05 AM.
jkkyler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2010, 09:38 AM   #5
Administrator
 
rbinck's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 15,981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkkyler View Post
I am not sure about 'jutter' but judder comes from when a camera pans while filming at 24fps (film)the speed of the film capture is not able to adequately capture the motion(pan) and jagged lines are introduced. It is not display dependent. Displays that show 24fps (48,72,96, hz displays) show a little smoother motion by eliminating the motion artifacts sometimes associated with 3:2 pulldown.

This may help http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm
Also some 120 hz displays that just use 5 frames per received frame. The person did a terrible job in explaining what he was trying to say. Motion flow processing is another process than the frame multiple and is usually to help a 60 or 30 fps signal not a 24 fps signal and actually adds artifacts as PFC said.

Bottom line is unless you have a 24 fps source, the 120 hz displays are not going to help judder.

There are some plasmas that use a 72 hz refresh to eliminate judder when fed a 24 fps source, so one technology like LCD vs plasma has nothing to do with it.
rbinck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2010, 10:37 AM   #6
ISF Calibrator
 
dsskid's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 5,015
Default

Please explain the green phosphor trails found with some plasmas. While they are not "judder", are they not motion artifacts?
__________________
Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time.

Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes.




Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911
Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3

RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty
dsskid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2010, 11:00 AM   #7
ISF Calibrator
 
dsskid's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 5,015
Default

Also, if you still watch DVDs and SD programming, pay special attention to the panels processing. The processing of the Panasonic plasmas so often recommended around here, leaves a lot to be desired.

Case in point, CNet's review of the G20:

Quote:
Video processing: Panasonic makes a lot of marketing hay out of it 600Hz subfield drive, but as we observed last year, its benefits (much like the antiblurring effects of 120Hz, 240Hz etc LCDs) are exceedingly difficult to discern. When we engaged the Blur reduction setting, our motion resolution test showed that the G20/25 was delivering all 1080 lines of the source. When we turned off the control, the result dipped down to somewhere between 700-800 lines. Although the difference between the two settings was impossible for us to see outside of specialized test patterns, there's no obvious reason not to turn the control on--it introduced no negative effects we could see.

As we noted above the G20/25 series is not blessed with the 96Hz refresh rate found on the step-up VT20/25 models, so as we observed with Panasonic's predecessor plasmas from 2009, the G models cannot properly handle 1080p/24 sources. We confirmed this with our favorite scene for such a test, the flyover of the Intrepid from "I Am Legend," where we observed the characteristic stuttering motion of 2:3 pull-down (as opposed to the correct cadence of film we observed on the V10) when the G20/25 was set to its default 60Hz mode under "24p direct in." Switching to the other option, 48Hz, caused the display to flicker significantly and become essentially unwatchable, especially in brighter scenes.

In our 1080i deinterlacing test, it's worth noting that the G20/G25 only passed in film mode when we chose the "on" position for the 3:2 pull-down control. When the control was set to the default "Auto" position, the TV failed.

Standard-definition: The 2010 G series is one of the worst standard-def performers we've tested recently. It didn't quite resolve all of the horizontal detail of the DVD format, and the shots of the stone bridge and grass appeared a bit soft. Jaggies in moving diagonal lines and a waving American flag were more prevalent on the G20/25 than on the Samsung or LG plasmas. Noise reduction was also less effective; in the Panasonic's strongest setting, we still saw motes and video noise in low-quality shots of skies and sunsets. The TV passed the 2:3 pull-down test in "On" mode, but the default "Auto" was again ineffective.
- http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...l?tag=txt;page

Moral of the story. No display is perfect.
__________________
Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time.

Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes.




Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911
Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3

RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty

Last edited by dsskid; 06-21-2010 at 11:04 AM.
dsskid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2010, 01:28 PM   #8
Former Super Moderator - RIP
 
PFC5's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 38,295
Default

Absolutely correct that no display is perfect. We all have to choose our poison so to speak.

What is reported on the 24Fps motion is not likely to be a big deal for most people since we have been watching film like this for decades.
__________________
Denon AVR-887
Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs)
All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr)
Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35
For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841
Panny 50pz80u plasma
SETTINGS
RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+
SA 3250HD
47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom)
Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support)
Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers
The_Cable_Game
Take the high ground and be happier
PSN: PFC5
PFC5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2010, 01:39 PM   #9
Compression Sucks
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Monrovia, CA.
Posts: 737
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5 View Post
Absolutely correct that no display is perfect. We all have to choose our poison so to speak.

What is reported on the 24Fps motion is not likely to be a big deal for most people since we have been watching film like this for decades.
Even though the 3:2 pulldown has been used for many, many years it is handled differently in todayís TVís than in the past. In the past the 3:2 was in fields unlike today where itís done in frames making it more noticeable.
1080PsF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2010, 01:39 PM   #10
ISF Calibrator
 
dsskid's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 5,015
Default

That being said, the G20 is still a fine looking display.
__________________
Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time.

Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes.




Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911
Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3

RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty
dsskid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2010, 01:49 PM   #11
Muscle Cars Forever!
 
Lee Stewart's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 37,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post
Please explain the green phosphor trails found with some plasmas. While they are not "judder", are they not motion artifacts?
Yes and No - that is an artifact of the display technology itself - plasma.

As you know, there are 3 different phosphors used in plasma TVs; RGB. Each has a specific, measureable decay time. The blue is the fastest, then the red and last the green. The quality of the phosphors is not equal among all PDPs. Some are faster than others.

Panasonic realized that decay time would be an issue when displaying 3D using a PDP, so they designed brand new fast decay red and green phosphors for their VT20 and VT25 series of PDPs. This prevents crosstalk (ghosting) and at the same time gets rid of phosphor trails when watching HD content.

Last edited by Lee Stewart; 06-21-2010 at 01:57 PM.
Lee Stewart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2010, 01:57 PM   #12
Muscle Cars Forever!
 
Lee Stewart's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 37,557
Default

Motion Judder is created by:

1. The 3:2 Pulldown when converting 24 FPS content to 30 FPS.

2. When the camera pans too quickly

3. Using a slow taking frame rate - 24 FPS
Lee Stewart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2010, 02:23 PM   #13
ISF Calibrator
 
dsskid's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 5,015
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post
Yes and No - that is an artifact of the display technology itself - plasma.

As you know, there are 3 different phosphors used in plasma TVs; RGB. Each has a specific, measureable decay time. The blue is the fastest, then the red and last the green. The quality of the phosphors is not equal among all PDPs. Some are faster than others.

Panasonic realized that decay time would be an issue when displaying 3D using a PDP, so they designed brand new fast decay red and green phosphors for their VT20 and VT25 series of PDPs. This prevents crosstalk (ghosting) and at the same time gets rid of phosphor trails when watching HD content.
Thanks Lee, but I was being facetious. It was to make a point that all displays have pluses and minuses, which I'm sure everyone understood, but thank you for explaining it regardless.

So yes, the premier plasmas perform well, just like the premier LED LCDs, but once you go down the line, and the components get cheaper, some cons start to creep into the equation. Just like not all plasmas have superior blacks to all LCDs.
__________________
Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time.

Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes.




Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911
Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3

RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty
dsskid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2010, 02:27 PM   #14
ISF Calibrator
 
dsskid's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 5,015
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post
Motion Judder is created by:

1. The 3:2 Pulldown when converting 24 FPS content to 30 FPS.

2. When the camera pans too quickly

3. Using a slow taking frame rate - 24 FPS
Thanks again Lee.

Which is why when viewing film content on displays that cannot properly handle 24 FPS, (Like the Panasonic G20) they produce judder. So going back to the OP, yes, some plasmas do indeed introduce motion judder.
__________________
Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, because they tend to shrink over time.

Professional reviews of displays are an excellent tool, but the final decision should come from using your own eyes.




Living Room - Panasonic TH58PZ700U, Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Denon AVR-1911
Man-Cave - Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD, Pioneer Kuro BDP-320, Denon AVR-591BA, PS3

RIP L2W, PFC5 & Kosty
dsskid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2010, 06:56 PM   #15
Administrator
 
rbinck's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 15,981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post
Thanks again Lee.

Which is why when viewing film content on displays that cannot properly handle 24 FPS, (Like the Panasonic G20) they produce judder. So going back to the OP, yes, some plasmas do indeed introduce motion judder.
And some LCDs also introduce judder, even some 120 hz versions.
rbinck is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource > High Definition Viewing Mediums, HDTVs > Flat-Panel TVs
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:55 PM.



Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright ©2004 - 2008, High Def Forum