Judder on TV shows?

kryptonian · 09-30-2009, 08:48 PM

is it normal to see judder on non-movie HD TV programming? in some shows im seeing some mild to moderate judder. I turn up the Judder reduction on my TV and some of it goes away. I just didnt think id have to turn it on at all when watching TV shows like CSI and Criminal Minds. I thought only judder happens when film signals are involved? My model is the Samsung 46B750. Have had it since July. Thanks!

PFC5 · 09-30-2009, 11:31 PM

Some shows are shot on film so it would still be relevant to need 3:2 pulldown for those IF they are shot that way. It could also be that your disc player is trying to add 3:2 pulldown when it is not needed, and that could cause what looks like judder.

Is this on a BD disc or a SD DVD disc?

Techlord · 10-01-2009, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Some shows are shot on film so it would still be relevant to need 3:2 pulldown for those IF they are shot that way. It could also be that your disc player is trying to add 3:2 pulldown when it is not needed, and that could cause what looks like judder.

Is this on a BD disc or a SD DVD disc?

I have the same LCD HDTV as kryptonian, best settings for Motion Blurr is 10 and 3-4 for Judder to keep things realistic looking. All Judder does is repeat frames in order to make things nice and smooth. If you are getting Judder with those settings than you signal is the issue, cable HD is horrible. Been there done that!

PFC5 are you saving that a BD player would try to do 3:2 pulldown, if so how do I set my Oppo to where it will be 3:3 pulldown? That is what we want right?

kryptonian · 10-01-2009, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Some shows are shot on film so it would still be relevant to need 3:2 pulldown for those IF they are shot that way. It could also be that your disc player is trying to add 3:2 pulldown when it is not needed, and that could cause what looks like judder.

Is this on a BD disc or a SD DVD disc?

Neither, its from HD TV programming. Although, since you brought that up, even when I use my PS3 with 24hz setting, I get a little judder with some BD's. Wasnt to worried about that however because I have read that even then its still normal to get some judder thats inherint with films. Most of my problem is with HD TV programming. its not an accross the board problem (no judder with channels like ESPN HD and CNN HD for example) its just with some shows. I sit about 7 to 8 feet from my TV so I thought maybe im going to notice more then I would have with my last TV which was a 40 inch 60hz. I just happened to have a comedy show on yesterday (the adventures of old Christine) and the judder was so bad, I couldnt watch it without turning on judder reduction.

kryptonian · 10-01-2009, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techlord

I have the same LCD HDTV as kryptonian, best settings for Motion Blurr is 10 and 3-4 for Judder to keep things realistic looking. All Judder does is repeat frames in order to make things nice and smooth. If you are getting Judder with those settings than you signal is the issue, cable HD is horrible. Been there done that!

PFC5 are you saving that a BD player would try to do 3:2 pulldown, if so how do I set my Oppo to where it will be 3:3 pulldown? That is what we want right?

Current settings are Blur Reduction at 10 and Judder Reduction at 3 to 5 (depending on source) So do you ever see judder or jerky type video on any shows/movies with the AMP off? im just wondering if maybe I got a bad panel that isnt processing these signals the right way. I have Direct TV btw. See the thing is, im comparing my current situation to watching my former Samsung 40 inch 60hz HDTV (only a few years old) and I never noticed these types of problems. Thats why im a little worried.

shreder75 · 10-01-2009, 07:21 AM

i notice this on some shows moreso than others through HD cable (can't wait till FIOS comes to town!)

for instance...I was watching House on FOX HD and the judder (now that I know what it is!) was pretty bad during moderately fast moving panning...

I can't remember if I have my 3:2 pulldown engaged on my viera G10 though..maybe I should put it back on if it's off..

kryptonian · 10-01-2009, 09:18 AM

I dont think there is a 3:2 pulldown option that I can control on my model. There is a "film mode" but I have that turned off. When I turn it on, it makes little or not difference.

PFC5 · 10-01-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techlord

I have the same LCD HDTV as kryptonian, best settings for Motion Blurr is 10 and 3-4 for Judder to keep things realistic looking. All Judder does is repeat frames in order to make things nice and smooth. If you are getting Judder with those settings than you signal is the issue, cable HD is horrible. Been there done that!

PFC5 are you saving that a BD player would try to do 3:2 pulldown, if so how do I set my Oppo to where it will be 3:3 pulldown? That is what we want right?

Your display cane do 10:10 pulldown being a 240Hz display, so you would NOT want to use 3:2 pulldown at all. Just send 24Fps and let your display repeat each frame 10 times.

PFC5 · 10-01-2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kryptonian

Neither, its from HD TV programming. Although, since you brought that up, even when I use my PS3 with 24hz setting, I get a little judder with some BD's. Wasnt to worried about that however because I have read that even then its still normal to get some judder thats inherint with films. Most of my problem is with HD TV programming. its not an accross the board problem (no judder with channels like ESPN HD and CNN HD for example) its just with some shows. I sit about 7 to 8 feet from my TV so I thought maybe im going to notice more then I would have with my last TV which was a 40 inch 60hz. I just happened to have a comedy show on yesterday (the adventures of old Christine) and the judder was so bad, I couldnt watch it without turning on judder reduction.

Then it is likely the source of the problem. You would want to set the display for video mode instead of film mode here if there is not a AUTO mode that works properly.

For movies on BD, SD DVD etc, you would want to set the mode to film if there is not an auto mode as well.

10-01-2009, 10:51 AM

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shreder75 · 10-01-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Then it is likely the source of the problem. You would want to set the display for video mode instead of film mode here if there is not a AUTO mode that works properly.

For movies on BD, SD DVD etc, you would want to set the mode to film if there is not an auto mode as well.

leads me to a question about my own TV then
if I'm watching cable or playing a game, I should have the 3:2 off? and then when I'm watching a blu ray or DVD I should put it on?

kryptonian · 10-01-2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Then it is likely the source of the problem. You would want to set the display for video mode instead of film mode here if there is not a AUTO mode that works properly.

For movies on BD, SD DVD etc, you would want to set the mode to film if there is not an auto mode as well.

Well when I use an external device (such as a PS3) for BD, the film mode option is greyed out so I couldnt use it for that even if I wanted to. As far as I know, there isnt an option to turn off/on 3:2 pulldown on the PS3 is there? I know there is an option to set it to 24hz or 60hz playback (I have it set to 24) being that my TV model is supposed to be able to run movies at 24hz. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I realize that you dont own my model of TV, but your obviously well versed in all things HI-DEF related which leads me to my last question. Being that my tv is 240hz, shouldnt it be able to perform the 10:10 pull down without turning on its Auto Motion Plus (samsungs version of Judder and Blur Reduction settings) The 240hz is always on and cannot be shut off (unlike the judder/blur reduction features) I know some folks get them confused and have them being as one in the same but I realize they are not.

PFC5 · 10-01-2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kryptonian

Well when I use an external device (such as a PS3) for BD, the film mode option is greyed out so I couldnt use it for that even if I wanted to. As far as I know, there isnt an option to turn off/on 3:2 pulldown on the PS3 is there? I know there is an option to set it to 24hz or 60hz playback (I have it set to 24) being that my TV model is supposed to be able to run movies at 24hz. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I realize that you dont own my model of TV, but your obviously well versed in all things HI-DEF related which leads me to my last question. Being that my tv is 240hz, shouldnt it be able to perform the 10:10 pull down without turning on its Auto Motion Plus (samsungs version of Judder and Blur Reduction settings) The 240hz is always on and cannot be shut off (unlike the judder/blur reduction features) I know some folks get them confused and have them being as one in the same but I realize they are not.

Setting the PS3 (or any BD player to 24Fps output in effect shuts off the PLAYER from doing the 3:2 pulldown. For your display and I think most good displays you SHOULD set the player to output 24Fps as i noticed with test screens that this improves the PQ when the display does the 3:2 pulldown on my HDTVs.

AFAIK, using the Auto Motion Plus will not do 10:10 pulldown (repeat the same frame 10 times) which is preferred IMO. It will interpolate what the display THINKS will change in that split second between each of the repeated frames, but this gives that "Soap Opera Effect" with movies that many people hate. It can also cause artifacts when the chip(s) in the display make guesses. I recommend turning this OFF at all times.

Hope this helps!

Techlord · 10-01-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kryptonian

Current settings are Blur Reduction at 10 and Judder Reduction at 3 to 5 (depending on source) So do you ever see judder or jerky type video on any shows/movies with the AMP off? im just wondering if maybe I got a bad panel that isnt processing these signals the right way. I have Direct TV btw. See the thing is, im comparing my current situation to watching my former Samsung 40 inch 60hz HDTV (only a few years old) and I never noticed these types of problems. Thats why im a little worried.

I do notice Judder on some stations, but not on the better quality programing like HDNet. Every night I watch HD Fight Nights with some very fast quick moving motion that doesn't Blurr or Judder, it depends on the quality of the digital camera used on that particular show. I think you are sitting too close to your display, I think if you sit back a little farther you won't notice it. If you were to sit two feet from your display you would see it even more, you would also see motion Blurr that your eye will not pick up as easy sitting farther away.

Also Dish Network and Direct TV compress their programing which doesn't help things either, when I watch the CW (Local station) the commercials look 10 times better than the show I am watching! This I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt!

Techlord · 10-01-2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Your display cane do 10:10 pulldown being a 240Hz display, so you would NOT want to use 3:2 pulldown at all. Just send 24Fps and let your display repeat each frame 10 times.

So you are saying set my Oppo to 24fps feature to "on" instead of "off"?

Thanks PFC5, Techlord.

09-30-2009, 08:48 PM	#1
kryptonian High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 465	Judder on TV shows? is it normal to see judder on non-movie HD TV programming? in some shows im seeing some mild to moderate judder. I turn up the Judder reduction on my TV and some of it goes away. I just didnt think id have to turn it on at all when watching TV shows like CSI and Criminal Minds. I thought only judder happens when film signals are involved? My model is the Samsung 46B750. Have had it since July. Thanks! __________________ DROID does Last edited by kryptonian; 09-30-2009 at 08:58 PM.

09-30-2009, 11:31 PM	#2
PFC5 Former Super Moderator - RIP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 38,295	Some shows are shot on film so it would still be relevant to need 3:2 pulldown for those IF they are shot that way. It could also be that your disc player is trying to add 3:2 pulldown when it is not needed, and that could cause what looks like judder. Is this on a BD disc or a SD DVD disc? __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

10-01-2009, 09:18 AM	#7
kryptonian High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 465	I dont think there is a 3:2 pulldown option that I can control on my model. There is a "film mode" but I have that turned off. When I turn it on, it makes little or not difference. __________________ DROID does Last edited by kryptonian; 10-01-2009 at 09:27 AM.

10-01-2009, 10:51 AM	#10
pappylap Guest Posts: n/a	http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...p_vs_1080i/D1/ http://thegreenbutton.net/forums/p/64226/314364.aspx Last edited by pappylap; 10-01-2009 at 11:14 AM.

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10-01-2009, 07:21 AM	#6
shreder75 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 167	i notice this on some shows moreso than others through HD cable (can't wait till FIOS comes to town!) for instance...I was watching House on FOX HD and the judder (now that I know what it is!) was pretty bad during moderately fast moving panning... I can't remember if I have my 3:2 pulldown engaged on my viera G10 though..maybe I should put it back on if it's off..