Purchase HD Programming Verses Purchasing an Antenna.

hmeseller · 03-28-2005, 01:05 AM

I need some help regarding HD programming. I just upgraded my receiver to the 522 model, and got so excited I went out and purchased a Panasonic 42" plasma. A new EDTV with the 480i receiver output leaves me with a picture quality not any better than my 10 year old standard TV. Here is the question / problem.

1. Is it true that in order to get a significantly better picture quality I would need to now purchase a 942 receiver/dvr. (This is the HD version of the 522 model)?

2. If I purchase the 942 without HD program package will I still get the same old 480i picture regardless of whether or not I have the 942? (This of course assumes that I could get the 942 without the HD programming package).

3. If I need the HD programming package with the new 942, are there really only five HD stations (excluding the HD local channels)?

4. In the local area I live (Los Angeles), I did a search and discovered I can get all of my local channels - including HD local channels by purchasing a small outdoor antenna. Do I need the Dish HD receiver to get these HD local channels via an outdoor antenna? Or is it just a matter of a hooking up the antenna and running it to the plasma tv?

Am I missing something or wouldn't it be better to not to pay for the HD programming at $9.99 per month + local channels $5.99 per month. Since Dish offers very few non local HD channels, can't I just save the $16.00 / month and get the HD local channels for only the cost of an outdoor antenna.

I appreciate all your comments as I educate myself here.

Thanks.

RSawdey · 03-28-2005, 02:17 AM

Like you said, a receiver that outputs 480i is the same image you've had for years... low def NTSC. This is SDTV. When it is deinterlaced, it becomes EDTV at 480p, like PS DVD. HDTV is 720p or 1080i...

Getting HDTV on your screen needs a program produced in HDTV, transmitted or stored in HDTV, and displayed on an HD capable display. An EDTV is not HDTV.

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

You need an antenna AND A DIGITAL OTA TUNER... if your TV doesn't have one, you'll need to use the one in the Satellite HD STB, or buy a separate STB. Buying 'local channels' is for people who can't pick up their local market with an antenna - and they mean SDTV locals!

jergenf · 03-28-2005, 08:41 AM

SDTV=480i (640 x 480)
EDTV=480p (640 x 480 or 704 x 480) normal or wide
HDTV=720p (1280 x 720) and 1080i (1920 x 1080) wide.

1. Is it true that in order to get a significantly better picture quality I would need to now purchase a 942 receiver/dvr. (This is the HD version of the 522 model)?

You can purchase the 811, 921 or 942. Yes the 942 is the HD version of 522. HD can be viewed on TV1 using component or HDMI/DVI outputs but will be down converted to 480i (SD) for TV2 (sent as a UHF chanel via coax). You may be able to lease the 942 for $250 and $5 a month. There are future plans to use MPEG4 for compression for future HD programming. This will require a new generation of receivers so take that into account when deciding to buy, lease or wait.

2. If I purchase the 942 without HD program package will I still get the same old 480i picture regardless of whether or not I have the 942? (This of course assumes that I could get the 942 without the HD programming package).

On your plasma it will up convert SD but the picture quality will generally be at 480p. If you subscribe to HBO or SHO packages then you would also receive full HD for HBO-HD and SHO-HD. If you have the 61.5 satellite you'll get DEMO-HD for free (forget it you live in LA). If you have 148 satellite you may be able to subscribe to KCBS-HD. Any other free HD will be OTA.

3. If I need the HD programming package with the new 942, are there really only five HD stations (excluding the HD local channels)?

If you choose the HD Pak there are only 5 channels right now.

4. In the local area I live (Los Angeles), I did a search and discovered I can get all of my local channels - including HD local channels by purchasing a small outdoor antenna. Do I need the Dish HD receiver to get these HD local channels via an outdoor antenna? Or is it just a matter of a hooking up the antenna and running it to the plasma tv?

You can connect you outdoor antenna to both the 942 and plasma TV. The 942 will display and record HD (when the station is sending HD programs). But your plasma would need to have a built-in digital tuner or your will only be able to pickup analog transmissions (hence no DTV or HD). Also your plasma must have the native resolution that's meets (or at least close to) HD quality (see above resolutions) some plasmas have only ED quality.

Am I missing something or wouldn't it be better to not to pay for the HD programming at $9.99 per month + local channels $5.99 per month. Since Dish offers very few non local HD channels, can't I just save the $16.00 / month and get the HD local channels for only the cost of an outdoor antenna.

If you have an outdoor antenna and can pickup all major networks for free it make no sense to pay $6 unless you want guide info in your EPG.Also the 921 and 942 may include an extra $5 for a PVR fee (waived if you have the Everything Pak).

As far as the HD Pak that's a personal choice. I watch HDNet, HDNet Movies and Discovery-HD all the time. I believe they're offerring the HD Pak for half off (or six month free) right now. Also digital OTA stations do not show HD 24 hours a day it is usually SD or ED most of the time.

hmeseller · 03-28-2005, 10:44 AM

Thanks for the posts. Most of my questions were answered here. I have the Panasonic TH-42PA25U/P. I mistakenly thought the resolution was 1280 x 720, not the 852 x 480 it actually is. Also this tv only has the NTSC tuner.

A good point was mentioned regarding paying for local channels verses using an antenna. If I do not subscribe to local channels, I assume I will not have access to the on screen guide for these channels, and hence the not have the ability to set up dvr recordings directly from the guide with the push of a button. Being that we record lots of programming from the local networks - not being able to easlily set up recordings using the guide would be less convenient. With this in mind, perhaps the extra $5.99 / month is not so bad after all.

Regarding HD programming, it looks like I would need an HD tuner (to get the HD signal via an antenna), or purchase the HD receiver/DVR from Dish. But since my TV only has a native resolution of 852 x 480, will my picture quality really improve much?

My entire dilemma started because I was not impressed with the picture quality on the new TV via Dish. However, when playing a DVD on the new TV, the picture is fantastic. Why is this? How can I get a similar picture quality from Dish as I do when I play a DVD on the same TV?

Once again, I appreciate your assistance.

jergenf · 03-28-2005, 01:31 PM

If I do not subscribe to local channels, I assume I will not have access to the on screen guide for these channels, and hence the not have the ability to set up dvr recordings directly from the guide with the push of a button.

If you pay for local channels you will receive the analog versions and not the digital transmissions. This is important because some digital channels (example PBS) also display subchannels (aka multicast). This means multiple programs are sent on the same channel. With digital TV you really need to think internet. The 19.4 Mbits can be split into different video, audio or data streams. The guide that dishnetwork supplies you won't give you that info and simply repeats the same info for the subchannels. So you'll still need to setup a manual event timer else record the wrong program.

Regarding HD programming, it looks like I would need an HD tuner (to get the HD signal via an antenna), or purchase the HD receiver/DVR from Dish. But since my TV only has a native resolution of 852 x 480, will my picture quality really improve much?

The 480p channels should look a little better than oridinary 480i (analog) would. Shows that are in HD I believe would use the full 852 pixels with individual pixel data. It will not be like HD but least as good as DVD is now.

A digital TV tuner (ATSC) obtains the data stream from the carrier signal and processes it as audio and video. They all are able to process 18 digital formats so there no such thing as a HD tuner. HD is just part of the 18 formats available.

However, when playing a DVD on the new TV, the picture is fantastic. Why is this? How can I get a similar picture quality from Dish as I do when I play a DVD on the same TV?

With DVD and Digital TV broardcast each pixel is indentified uniquely with a defined color (one of 16.7 million possible colors). With analog the luminance "Y" (black and white) is at full resolution but the chroma (colors) "C" are far lower. The two pictures Y and C are blended together and the result is somewhat in between. Simply put, color detail was never truly defined and processed in analog so it can't be displayed any better. While with digital every pixel is assigned a numeric color which increase color detatil and range.

Many programs on satellite channels are digitally captured from analog sources so they can't really look any better than the original.
So depending on the source your picture quality will vary.

RSawdey · 03-28-2005, 02:16 PM

With broadcast digital TV, there is something called PSIP info carried in the stream, which describes the program. A good guide program should be able to capture it to add info to it's listings...

hmeseller · 03-28-2005, 06:19 PM

Thanks again for the responses. I have more questions:

If I keep the new TV which does not have the digital tuner, and simply get the Dish HD 942 receiver without purchasing the HD package, am I safe to assume my overall picture quality will improve to something resembling my DVD? If there is not notable improvement with the picture, would I be better returning the Panasonic I just bought and purchasing an HD TV with a digital tuner?

Am I correct in assuming the 522 receiver only transmits at 480i (analog)? If I get the 942 HD receiver, resolution will be 480p(digital) or greater?

Finally, are all non-HD stations broadcast (via Dish Network) at the 480p resolution?...or are some channels broadcast somewhere in between the 480p and 1080i?

Thanks again guys!

jergenf · 03-29-2005, 08:04 AM

Am I correct in assuming the 522 receiver only transmits at 480i (analog)? If I get the 942 HD receiver, resolution will be 480p(digital) or greater?

The 522 only has composite/s-video outputs so therefore only 480i. However your plasma probably displays it as progressive anyways.
Most (if not all) fixed displays upconvert to fit their native resolution.

Finally, are all non-HD stations broadcast (via Dish Network) at the 480p resolution?...or are some channels broadcast somewhere in between the 480p and 1080i?

They're all 480p (using the component or DVI output) but depending on the source that program came from the picture quality can vary quite a bit. I imagine (based on my 921) the best quality would be your OTA digitals because they wouldn't subject to the additional compression tricks that satellite and cable companies often use. For example the premium satellite channels may look better the freebie channels. Again there's no way to determine if it's because of the program's original source or if they micro tune the bit stream to get the most channels within their bandwidth.

FYI: Some digital broadcast stations may also micro tune their bit steams in order to supply more subchannels (multicast). For example PBS.

RSawdey · 03-29-2005, 08:28 AM

All the SDTV channels are sent as 480i. You can have your STB deinterlace them to 480p, or the TV will do it.

HDTV signals come in 1280 x 720 progressive and 1920 x 1080 interlaced, if you have an HD STB connected with component or HDMI.

Buying a set with a digital tuner won't help with satellite... they only work with OTA and Cable. If you have TWO tuners to use, one in the STB & one in the TV you can do PIP...

Personally, I'd suggest getting a real HDTV to see the real deal...

03-28-2005, 01:05 AM	#1
hmeseller My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5	Purchase HD Programming Verses Purchasing an Antenna. I need some help regarding HD programming. I just upgraded my receiver to the 522 model, and got so excited I went out and purchased a Panasonic 42" plasma. A new EDTV with the 480i receiver output leaves me with a picture quality not any better than my 10 year old standard TV. Here is the question / problem. 1. Is it true that in order to get a significantly better picture quality I would need to now purchase a 942 receiver/dvr. (This is the HD version of the 522 model)? 2. If I purchase the 942 without HD program package will I still get the same old 480i picture regardless of whether or not I have the 942? (This of course assumes that I could get the 942 without the HD programming package). 3. If I need the HD programming package with the new 942, are there really only five HD stations (excluding the HD local channels)? 4. In the local area I live (Los Angeles), I did a search and discovered I can get all of my local channels - including HD local channels by purchasing a small outdoor antenna. Do I need the Dish HD receiver to get these HD local channels via an outdoor antenna? Or is it just a matter of a hooking up the antenna and running it to the plasma tv? Am I missing something or wouldn't it be better to not to pay for the HD programming at $9.99 per month + local channels $5.99 per month. Since Dish offers very few non local HD channels, can't I just save the $16.00 / month and get the HD local channels for only the cost of an outdoor antenna. I appreciate all your comments as I educate myself here. Thanks.

03-28-2005, 02:17 AM	#2
RSawdey Mr. Wizard Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ferndale, Michigan Age: 61 Posts: 5,981	Like you said, a receiver that outputs 480i is the same image you've had for years... low def NTSC. This is SDTV. When it is deinterlaced, it becomes EDTV at 480p, like PS DVD. HDTV is 720p or 1080i... Getting HDTV on your screen needs a program produced in HDTV, transmitted or stored in HDTV, and displayed on an HD capable display. An EDTV is not HDTV. Yes. Yes. Yes. You need an antenna AND A DIGITAL OTA TUNER... if your TV doesn't have one, you'll need to use the one in the Satellite HD STB, or buy a separate STB. Buying 'local channels' is for people who can't pick up their local market with an antenna - and they mean SDTV locals!

03-28-2005, 08:41 AM	#3
jergenf High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 398	SDTV=480i (640 x 480) EDTV=480p (640 x 480 or 704 x 480) normal or wide HDTV=720p (1280 x 720) and 1080i (1920 x 1080) wide. 1. Is it true that in order to get a significantly better picture quality I would need to now purchase a 942 receiver/dvr. (This is the HD version of the 522 model)? You can purchase the 811, 921 or 942. Yes the 942 is the HD version of 522. HD can be viewed on TV1 using component or HDMI/DVI outputs but will be down converted to 480i (SD) for TV2 (sent as a UHF chanel via coax). You may be able to lease the 942 for $250 and $5 a month. There are future plans to use MPEG4 for compression for future HD programming. This will require a new generation of receivers so take that into account when deciding to buy, lease or wait. 2. If I purchase the 942 without HD program package will I still get the same old 480i picture regardless of whether or not I have the 942? (This of course assumes that I could get the 942 without the HD programming package). On your plasma it will up convert SD but the picture quality will generally be at 480p. If you subscribe to HBO or SHO packages then you would also receive full HD for HBO-HD and SHO-HD. If you have the 61.5 satellite you'll get DEMO-HD for free (forget it you live in LA). If you have 148 satellite you may be able to subscribe to KCBS-HD. Any other free HD will be OTA. 3. If I need the HD programming package with the new 942, are there really only five HD stations (excluding the HD local channels)? If you choose the HD Pak there are only 5 channels right now. 4. In the local area I live (Los Angeles), I did a search and discovered I can get all of my local channels - including HD local channels by purchasing a small outdoor antenna. Do I need the Dish HD receiver to get these HD local channels via an outdoor antenna? Or is it just a matter of a hooking up the antenna and running it to the plasma tv? You can connect you outdoor antenna to both the 942 and plasma TV. The 942 will display and record HD (when the station is sending HD programs). But your plasma would need to have a built-in digital tuner or your will only be able to pickup analog transmissions (hence no DTV or HD). Also your plasma must have the native resolution that's meets (or at least close to) HD quality (see above resolutions) some plasmas have only ED quality. Am I missing something or wouldn't it be better to not to pay for the HD programming at $9.99 per month + local channels $5.99 per month. Since Dish offers very few non local HD channels, can't I just save the $16.00 / month and get the HD local channels for only the cost of an outdoor antenna. If you have an outdoor antenna and can pickup all major networks for free it make no sense to pay $6 unless you want guide info in your EPG.Also the 921 and 942 may include an extra $5 for a PVR fee (waived if you have the Everything Pak). As far as the HD Pak that's a personal choice. I watch HDNet, HDNet Movies and Discovery-HD all the time. I believe they're offerring the HD Pak for half off (or six month free) right now. Also digital OTA stations do not show HD 24 hours a day it is usually SD or ED most of the time.

03-28-2005, 10:44 AM	#4
hmeseller My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5	Thanks for the posts. Most of my questions were answered here. I have the Panasonic TH-42PA25U/P. I mistakenly thought the resolution was 1280 x 720, not the 852 x 480 it actually is. Also this tv only has the NTSC tuner. A good point was mentioned regarding paying for local channels verses using an antenna. If I do not subscribe to local channels, I assume I will not have access to the on screen guide for these channels, and hence the not have the ability to set up dvr recordings directly from the guide with the push of a button. Being that we record lots of programming from the local networks - not being able to easlily set up recordings using the guide would be less convenient. With this in mind, perhaps the extra $5.99 / month is not so bad after all. Regarding HD programming, it looks like I would need an HD tuner (to get the HD signal via an antenna), or purchase the HD receiver/DVR from Dish. But since my TV only has a native resolution of 852 x 480, will my picture quality really improve much? My entire dilemma started because I was not impressed with the picture quality on the new TV via Dish. However, when playing a DVD on the new TV, the picture is fantastic. Why is this? How can I get a similar picture quality from Dish as I do when I play a DVD on the same TV? Once again, I appreciate your assistance.

03-28-2005, 01:31 PM	#5
jergenf High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 398	If I do not subscribe to local channels, I assume I will not have access to the on screen guide for these channels, and hence the not have the ability to set up dvr recordings directly from the guide with the push of a button. If you pay for local channels you will receive the analog versions and not the digital transmissions. This is important because some digital channels (example PBS) also display subchannels (aka multicast). This means multiple programs are sent on the same channel. With digital TV you really need to think internet. The 19.4 Mbits can be split into different video, audio or data streams. The guide that dishnetwork supplies you won't give you that info and simply repeats the same info for the subchannels. So you'll still need to setup a manual event timer else record the wrong program. Regarding HD programming, it looks like I would need an HD tuner (to get the HD signal via an antenna), or purchase the HD receiver/DVR from Dish. But since my TV only has a native resolution of 852 x 480, will my picture quality really improve much? The 480p channels should look a little better than oridinary 480i (analog) would. Shows that are in HD I believe would use the full 852 pixels with individual pixel data. It will not be like HD but least as good as DVD is now. A digital TV tuner (ATSC) obtains the data stream from the carrier signal and processes it as audio and video. They all are able to process 18 digital formats so there no such thing as a HD tuner. HD is just part of the 18 formats available. However, when playing a DVD on the new TV, the picture is fantastic. Why is this? How can I get a similar picture quality from Dish as I do when I play a DVD on the same TV? With DVD and Digital TV broardcast each pixel is indentified uniquely with a defined color (one of 16.7 million possible colors). With analog the luminance "Y" (black and white) is at full resolution but the chroma (colors) "C" are far lower. The two pictures Y and C are blended together and the result is somewhat in between. Simply put, color detail was never truly defined and processed in analog so it can't be displayed any better. While with digital every pixel is assigned a numeric color which increase color detatil and range. Many programs on satellite channels are digitally captured from analog sources so they can't really look any better than the original. So depending on the source your picture quality will vary.

03-28-2005, 02:16 PM	#6
RSawdey Mr. Wizard Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ferndale, Michigan Age: 61 Posts: 5,981	With broadcast digital TV, there is something called PSIP info carried in the stream, which describes the program. A good guide program should be able to capture it to add info to it's listings...

03-28-2005, 06:19 PM	#7
hmeseller My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5	Thanks again for the responses. I have more questions: If I keep the new TV which does not have the digital tuner, and simply get the Dish HD 942 receiver without purchasing the HD package, am I safe to assume my overall picture quality will improve to something resembling my DVD? If there is not notable improvement with the picture, would I be better returning the Panasonic I just bought and purchasing an HD TV with a digital tuner? Am I correct in assuming the 522 receiver only transmits at 480i (analog)? If I get the 942 HD receiver, resolution will be 480p(digital) or greater? Finally, are all non-HD stations broadcast (via Dish Network) at the 480p resolution?...or are some channels broadcast somewhere in between the 480p and 1080i? Thanks again guys!

03-29-2005, 08:04 AM	#8
jergenf High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 398	Am I correct in assuming the 522 receiver only transmits at 480i (analog)? If I get the 942 HD receiver, resolution will be 480p(digital) or greater? The 522 only has composite/s-video outputs so therefore only 480i. However your plasma probably displays it as progressive anyways. Most (if not all) fixed displays upconvert to fit their native resolution. Finally, are all non-HD stations broadcast (via Dish Network) at the 480p resolution?...or are some channels broadcast somewhere in between the 480p and 1080i? They're all 480p (using the component or DVI output) but depending on the source that program came from the picture quality can vary quite a bit. I imagine (based on my 921) the best quality would be your OTA digitals because they wouldn't subject to the additional compression tricks that satellite and cable companies often use. For example the premium satellite channels may look better the freebie channels. Again there's no way to determine if it's because of the program's original source or if they micro tune the bit stream to get the most channels within their bandwidth. FYI: Some digital broadcast stations may also micro tune their bit steams in order to supply more subchannels (multicast). For example PBS.

03-29-2005, 08:28 AM	#9
RSawdey Mr. Wizard Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ferndale, Michigan Age: 61 Posts: 5,981	All the SDTV channels are sent as 480i. You can have your STB deinterlace them to 480p, or the TV will do it. HDTV signals come in 1280 x 720 progressive and 1920 x 1080 interlaced, if you have an HD STB connected with component or HDMI. Buying a set with a digital tuner won't help with satellite... they only work with OTA and Cable. If you have TWO tuners to use, one in the STB & one in the TV you can do PIP... Personally, I'd suggest getting a real HDTV to see the real deal...