Dark horizontal band at the bottom of my set

Porcupine

I'm annoyed, my 1.5 week old Toshiba 30HF85 developed a new problem yesterday which so far has not gone away. There is a 1-inch thick/high horizontal band at the bottom of my screen now. In that region, the screen image is very slightly darker than normal. That 1-inch band is pretty sharply defined, it's not "fuzzy" or anything.

At first I thought I'd somehow burned my set in, but I can't really think of any image I might have put up to cause such a burn in pattern. It looks like it could be the CNN ticker burned in, except I've never watched CNN other than to see the ticker to check my new set's geometry (at most one hour total since I got this set, and no longer than 10 minutes at a time).

After more troubleshooting, I discovered the following things. The problem exists on all inputs to the set. The dark problem area does NOT change if I resize or stretch my image vertically in the Service Menu. At that point I was really thinking it must be burn-in, but then I discovered that if I turn off my set, let it cool down for overnight (or an hour, this morning) then turn it back on, that horizontal dark band is only 1 cm high from the bottom, instead of 1 inch. However, slowly over the course of an hour of viewing the size of the dark band increases until it is back to the 1 inch, at which point it stays. Also, I later discovered that the Tilt function in either the User or Service Menu also tilts that dark band. So it's definitely not screen burn-in. But I can't seem to figure out what it is, any ideas?

I also tried unplugging my set and plugging it back in to see if the dark band goes away, but it didn't. It did reset to 1 cm thickness though, temporarily. Two days ago there was no band whatsoever, could my set be in the process of breaking?

InitialDMP5

if its only a week old, can't you take it back and get another one? Now that you know it has this problem, maybe check and see if this is a known problem, and find another set in your price range that is rated highly by other users. That is a weird display problem though.

waltchan

He did an exchange five times already. Porcupine, give up, it's just an Orion.

Nonnie

I told you get an LCD. My 37HL95 is a real Toshiba and it is awesome.

Porcupine

InitialDMP5, I've been dealing with 30HF85 problems for a while now (previous four sets) and I never encountered this problem before, nor have I heard a single user complain of this. However I have seen some problems in my multiple units that were not known problems, so I know not all the major problems are "known". This problem baffles me, I can't even figure out what is causing it. If it stays exactly as it is right now for all time, though annoying it is still acceptable. But since this problem is newly developed, I fear this problem may not be stable.

Fortunately my set does have a warranty period of some time so if some problem eventually develops and my set totally goes kaput I won't be in deep doodoo. But it'd be a hassle to deal with repairs, and so I try to be as active as possible while still in the return period.

I'm leaving for Japan tomorrow though for a trip, and I won't be back for a week (after which I'll have one week left to study my set). So I won't talk for a week.

Nonnie, okay at this point even though I hate LCD with a passion, I must acknowledge your sage advice. I don't know much about LCDs though, and I probably don't have enough money to get a good one. Do you know which LCDs have the best refresh times? What are refresh rates like these days, and do you have any particular recommendations? My primary concern is refresh rate. Anything else I don't care, size, contrast ratio, HD or ED, whatever. I would probably try to get the LCD with the best refresh rate that I can afford (budget exists, but quantity undetermined), sacraficing everything else if possible, and if need be.

waltchan, if you don't mind me asking, aren't you supposed to own a Sony 26" Bravia LCD set, yet are searching for a CRT HDTV like I am? Last I heard you had the Toshiba 26" combo though I suspect by now you have returned it in secret lol. If you already own a Bravia, why are you searching for another TV?

InitialDMP5

ahh OK. I guess I should check up on this stuff. I just see posts pop up on my RSS feed. I own a samsung 30 inch CRT flat tube, but I would not recommend it for a serious home theater set up. Almost every set I have seen of this model has geometry problems and some yellow discoloration in at least one of the corners. The only reason I have this TV is because I got it for like 60% percent off while I was working at Best Buy. I'm a college student with a modest home theater set up in my small apartment, this tv works great for me. LCD, or SXRD are probably the next best way to go, although the price jumps up signifigantly.

ja2935

My recommendation for a modest price but good quality CRT would be to look for a refurb 34HF84 - made by Toshiba in the US. I have had mine 18 months with no significant picture problems.

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waltchan

Good, that's because you won't have any problems with it for 10 years. Don't be all too worried.

Porcupine

Back from Japan! My set still has that dark banding problem ohwell. Didn't really look at electronics in Japan but I could see what kind of TVs people were using for displays and in the arcades. Kind of interesting. The newer games have 480p (maybe 540p, can't tell) CRT HD displays or 720p LCD HD displays. The HD CRTs had crap quality, RGB convergence terrible in the corners (so bad you can't even see there) it was funny. I guess the terrible CRT quality these days has affected everything, even arcade machines now.

I also decided that there's no way I'll get LCD. I did some testing of my Toshiba 30HF85 and I know now the image it displays is delayed from the image an old analog CRT would display by at least 1 field, probably 2 fields. It totally super-hampers my videogame playing ability (it only matters if you are a super top serious gamer though) so I'm totally annoyed with all digital TVs now. LCD would delay the image by at least 2 fields more, and a 4 field delay is totally unacceptable.

The Toshiba delays the image because of both the 3D Y/C comb filter and/or the 3:2 reverse pulldown engine. With those features on the set needs to look 1 field into the future to try to generate the image it wants, so your screen image is delayed by 1 field or more. Even if you turn those features off the set is designed to still have the same 1 field delay just for consistency and uniformity, even though it's not required. So that sucks bigtime.

I swore I would not play fighting games anymore competitively but in Japan I just found I could play some fighting games fairly competitively even with their top famous players, so I should not quit just yet I guess.

rbinck

Not sure why LCD would have a longer delay. Why would that be?

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Porcupine

I believe that LCD would have a longer delay because of two reasons. One, the refresh time of the pixels. Supposing a decent LCD today has a refresh time of 16 ms (about 1 field), it will take 1 extra field before the moving image finishes "getting to" the new image, whereas a CRT would be instant as soon as the electron beam gun hits.

Two, I believe that all LCDs may lose 1 additional field as well because they might wait for one entire screen image signal to be sent before the TV simultaneously tells all the pixels to start changing to the new image. But I think CRTs will be scanning the new image onto the screen in real-time (or 1 field delayed, in the case of having a 3D comb filter or 3:2 reverse pulldown processing) as the image signal is being received. So that's yet another 1 field (maybe half a field, depending how you look at it) that a CRT will be faster than a LCD.

I could be wrong about all this, this is just my theories. Only recently did I test my Toshiba 30HF85 carefully in several ways and became fairly certain it is losing 1 field (maybe 2) at all times compared to an old analog CRT.

If you add all those potential delays up, an LCD these days might have a 3 field or 4 field delay or more compared to an old analog CRT. That's still perfectly fine for watching shows, and perfectly fine for most gamers too, but it's not fine for competitive gaming (it's okay though if everyone always uses the same kind of TV but that's probably not the case).

godson

Just for number's sake,I would say its safer to assume that 12ms is probably more fair for a decent LCD but many are at 8ms,as is my Sony,and I'm just wondering how did you come to this conclusion?I'm curious is this something I could test for myself?I'm not yanking you around or nothing,for all I know you could right...I'm just wondering if I could test this on my own?

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rbinck

I can see the delay due to processing and I can even see that being up to 2 fields in time in order to provide reference fields, but eventually all display devices must operate at the frame rate of the signal received or you would have dropped frames. That means the LCD would have to keep up with 30 frames per sec for a 1080i signal, 60 frames per sec for a 720p signal even if it is delayed by a frame or two.

In any case I don't see there being a difference between the processing delay of a CRT and a LCD. At that point the signals are the same.

Are you playing internet based games like Doom or Quake against other players? Ever been to Quakecon?

Seems to me if you can tell a 1 to 4 frame delay you would use a computer monitor rather than a TV anyway.

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Porcupine

Nope I don't play PC games, you'd be using a PC monitor for those anyway like you said. My primary concern is for console games like XBox 360 and PS3. Most such competitive games are played on the same TV though, so whatever TV delay affects you also affects your opponents so it's fair. Still, I'd prefer to have no delay if possible. And I don't know what kind of games I might play in the future. For example if I were to be playing Dead or Alive 4 fighting game on the XBox 360 right now online (which is possible, though people say it is laggy and sucks) and I were on a crap 20" analog tube but they were on a 32" Sony Bravia LCD it would be ultra unfair in MY favor. A 3 to 4 field delay is LETHAL in a fighting game (it's not as lethal in Doom/Quake type games) and I'd probably whup them.

The 1 field delay (or 2?) in my Tosh 30HF85 affects me significantly when I play Soul Calibur 2.

But maybe it's possible that if 1080i is input to these CRT HDTVs, all the 3D Y/C, pulldown, and rescaling processing will be correctly bypassed and there will be no delay, who knows....no one can possibly know until the PS3 comes out I think.

Porcupine

With only a few days left to possibly return my 30HF85, I've been looking seriously into DLPs and LCDs (I've gone back on my word lol). Within the space I've put my Toshiba 30" tube, I could fit a 32" LCD so that would be good. Depth is not an issue for me, but I could only find 3 models of LCDs that fit my space criterion of 32" length and 24" height nicely (Dell 32" with removable side speakers, Scepter 32" with removable side speakers, new Sony 32" Bravia U-series current model). Unfortunately after searching all local stores the only one I could find in stock was the Sony 32" being sold at a local store at retail price of $1700 which is a bit too expensive for me I think (I hate paying retail, if it were on sale I'd probably buy it). I could get the Sony WEGA 42" 3LCD Projection TV from Circuit City for less (the other option I'm considering, but I'd have to totally reconfigure my bedroom for it).

In any case, in my new TV adventures I took a look at more display Toshiba CRTs. To my surprise, I found that the display 30HF85 at the Best Buy I bought from has the exact same problem with the dark horizontal band 1 inch from the bottom as mine!! So I'm not alone. Possibly this problem affected one production batch of 30HF85s. I've never seen this problem on any of the other 10 or so 30HF85 I've seen (some mine, some in stores) or any of the 34" or 26" models. It's pointless for me to try to exchange my set, as I most likely would end up with another Tosh with the exact same problem (I've noticed in the past that all units within one particular store share the same characteristics and problems). My previous 2 30HF85s that did not have this problem, that were built in March 2005 (not November 2005) were not from the same Best Buy. But that Best Buy has not had any 30HF85 for over a month. The only ones left in this state are from the store I just bought from, and they probably have about 5 TVs just like mine with the same problem (they are all currently on the ground in boxes in the middle of the store, BB is totally desperate to get rid of them).

Anyways, after looking at the problem in more detail, it's more of a dark line than a dark band. It is like a dark/black horizontal line 1 inch from the bottom of the set. It is "straight" but whatever horizontal geometry problems your set has, the line will inherit. It's pretty noticeable and annoying, I wish I knew what the cause was, especially since my set did NOT have this line until I used it for 2 weeks, when it spontaneously appeared. Curse Toshiba!! I'm probably going to end up stuck with this set unless I can find something better in 3 days. Should I go with the Sony 32" LCD or 42" LCD RP, maybe? Or do I have better alternatives? I welcome any suggestions. I'm basically trying to either find a compact set like the 30" Toshiba or a 32" LCD (the height restriction can be dumped if necessary, but my length restriction is tough to overcome)...or if I can find a better deal on something I suppose even 42-inchers could work, I'll just have to put it somewhere else and totally rework this bedroom.