Really PO'd at Comcast!

ranbob · 05-11-2009, 10:25 PM

Okay, I'm sure it's my own fault for not really understanding things and this doesn't affect me. It affects my mother in law.
I thought when you subscribed to basic or expanded basic, you got the local area channels plus a few more.
On June 12th, local channels are going all digital. Great!
Local channels here (Seattle) will then be entirely digital with most being that the digital signal is HD.
Now Comcast has installed a box to her set so that she can receive digital signals. She doesn't need the box as her tv is a Sony HD with a QAM tuner. Now she doesn't get the local HD programming! When she asked about this, they told her that she should have been paying for it all along.
Bullshit! If the local signal is HD, then it should be included in her basic package!
Oh yeah, they say that they will be scrambling all of their signals so you have to use their little 'converter' boxes whether you have a digital tuner or not.
This to me, is an out and out ripoff! She, and several others are writing letters to her home owner's association (which supplies basic cable as part of her assoc. fees) as well as the FCC.
Comcast has you covered? Yeah, your bank account if you want their service!

glennb1 · 05-11-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranbob

Okay, I'm sure it's my own fault for not really understanding things and this doesn't affect me. It affects my mother in law.
I thought when you subscribed to basic or expanded basic, you got the local area channels plus a few more.
On June 12th, local channels are going all digital. Great!
Local channels here (Seattle) will then be entirely digital with most being that the digital signal is HD.
Now Comcast has installed a box to her set so that she can receive digital signals. She doesn't need the box as her tv is a Sony HD with a QAM tuner. Now she doesn't get the local HD programming! When she asked about this, they told her that she should have been paying for it all along.
Bullshit! If the local signal is HD, then it should be included in her basic package!
Oh yeah, they say that they will be scrambling all of their signals so you have to use their little 'converter' boxes whether you have a digital tuner or not.
This to me, is an out and out ripoff! She, and several others are writing letters to her home owner's association (which supplies basic cable as part of her assoc. fees) as well as the FCC.
Comcast has you covered? Yeah, your bank account if you want their service!

Connect the cable directly to her Sony HD with the QAM tuner, tell the TV to search for channels, tell COMCAST to come and get the box and drop her service back to basic service.

bicker · 05-12-2009, 09:34 AM

The following message is relevant to your situation... note the conclusion, prior to the research that supports it, in bold:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallingwater

A complicated affair indeed, where FCC rules apply completely differently depending whether a cable operator presents its line-up in an analog, digital, or mixed format. In my lay opinion if Comcast continues to offer Limited Basic chs. 2 through 28 in analog it has no obligation to provide unscrambled hi-def digital versions of these channels.

A brief core excerpt from:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-07-170A1.pdf

7. We retain the requirement that HD signals be carried in HD, as well as the comparative approach to determining whether material degradation has occurred. In 2001, the First Report and Order established two requirements to avoid material degradation. First, "a cable operator may not provide a digital broadcast signal in a lesser format or lower resolution than that afforded to any" other signal on the system.12 Second, a cable operator must carry broadcast stations such that, when compared to the broadcast signal, "the difference is not really perceptible to the viewer."13 Thus, "a broadcast signal delivered in HDTV must be carried in HDTV."14 Because we decline to rely on measurement of bits to determine whether degradation has occurred, we do not require carriage of all content bits. Additionally, for the reasons described below, we decline to adopt the proposed negotiation framework.

8. The Act requires that broadcast signals not be “materially degraded.” It also requires the Commission to “adopt carriage standards to ensure that, to the extent technically feasible, the quality of signal processing and carriage provided by a cable system for the carriage of local commercial television stations will be no less than that provided by the system for carriage of any other type of signal.”15 The Commission stated in 2001 that “[f]rom our perspective, the issue of material degradation is about the picture quality the consumer receives and is capable of perceiving.”16 Cable commenters argued that this should remain the focus of the Commission’s decision making, and we agree.17

9. We considered the “all content bits” proposal, the main benefit of which was a clear means of measurement and consequently ease of enforcement.18 Ultimately, we conclude, however, that the all content bits approach is likely to stifle innovation and the very efficiency that digital technology offers, and may be more exacting a standard than necessary to ensure that a given signal will be carried without material degradation. We also conclude that it is unnecessary at this time to impose such a requirement in light of the paucity of material degradation complaints over the 15 years since enactment of the Must Carry statute.19
---
13. Commenters requested clarification that downconversion to analog does not constitute material degradation.27 We accordingly clarify that it is not material degradation to downconvert that signal to comply with the “viewability” requirement discussed below.

14....Given the broad based objections to the proposal, we decline to establish a formal procedure by which broadcasters would waive the material degradation requirements.32

B. Availability of Signals – Sections 614(b)(7) and 615(h)
15. In this section, we adopt rules requiring cable systems that are not “all-digital” to provide must-carry signals in analog, while “all-digital” systems may provide them in digital form only.33
---
18. We adopt these proposals, and note that they apply to all operators, regardless of their rateregulated status.42 In sum, cable operators must comply with the statutory mandate that must-carry broadcast signals “shall be viewable via cable on all television receivers of a subscriber which are connected to a cable system by a cable operator or for which a cable operator provides a connection,” and they have two options of doing so.43 First, to the extent that such subscribers do not have the capability of viewing digital signals, cable systems must carry the signals of commercial and non-commercial mustcarry stations in analog format to those subscribers, after downconverting the signals from their original digital format at the headend.44 This proposal is in line with the approach already voluntarily planned by many cable operators, as described in testimony by Time Warner CEO Glenn Britt before the House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet.45 In the alternative, operators may choose to operate “all-digital systems.”46 Under this option, operators will not be required to downconvert the signal to analog, and may provide these stations only in a digital format. In any event, any downconversion costs will be borne by the operator.

19. To fulfill its must-carry obligations in cases where a cable operator uses digital-to-analog converter boxes that do not have analog tuners, the operator can deliver a standard definition digital version of a must-carry broadcaster’s high definition digital signal, in addition to the analog and high definition signal, or use boxes that convert high definition signals for viewing on an analog television set, or use other technical solutions so long as cable subscribers have the ability to view the signals.

http://www./tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=362736&page=63

bicker · 05-12-2009, 09:35 AM

So if Fallingwater is correct, your beef is with the FCC and your local government officials, not with Comcast.

auburnfan23 · 05-12-2009, 10:31 AM

Comcast and Time Warner will rip you off at any turn. Any little thing they can do like charging extra for boxes and such when you do not even need them they will do it in a heartbeat..

Suby · 05-12-2009, 10:50 AM

man thats really sad to hear, I'd be pretty pissed.. too much the competition isn't any better.

DoctorCAD · 05-12-2009, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by auburnfan23

Comcast and Time Warner will rip you off at any turn. Any little thing they can do like charging extra for boxes and such when you do not even need them they will do it in a heartbeat..

Remember...YOU DO NOT NEED CABLE TV.

Comcast and Time Warner provide a pay-for-use service. If you want to pay, good for you. If you don't want to pay, quit.

They are not in the business to lose money, they want to MAKE money.

bicker · 05-12-2009, 04:50 PM

Also, DirecTV, Dish Network, Cox, Charter, RCN, and FiOS all also charge extra for extra boxes. Cox, Charter, RCN, and FiOS have all been, at one time or another, accused of telling people that they had to pay for things that they didn't need to; and the only reason why DirectTV and Dish Network haven't be accused of that is because they don't provide any service without a box on every television.

Auburnfan23: Please post a list of the subscription television providers that do not charge extra for extra boxes.

crabby_bob · 05-14-2009, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranbob

Okay, I'm sure it's my own fault for not really understanding things and this doesn't affect me. It affects my mother in law.
I thought when you subscribed to basic or expanded basic, you got the local area channels plus a few more.
On June 12th, local channels are going all digital. Great!
Local channels here (Seattle) will then be entirely digital with most being that the digital signal is HD.
Now Comcast has installed a box to her set so that she can receive digital signals. She doesn't need the box as her tv is a Sony HD with a QAM tuner. Now she doesn't get the local HD programming! When she asked about this, they told her that she should have been paying for it all along.
Bullshit! If the local signal is HD, then it should be included in her basic package!
Oh yeah, they say that they will be scrambling all of their signals so you have to use their little 'converter' boxes whether you have a digital tuner or not.
This to me, is an out and out ripoff! She, and several others are writing letters to her home owner's association (which supplies basic cable as part of her assoc. fees) as well as the FCC.
Comcast has you covered? Yeah, your bank account if you want their service!

I feel for you. I took the "you don't need cable tv so drop them" path a few years ago. The problem is analog is going away which means some of the channels I used to watch, and almost all my local channels, are going away because I'm in a fringe area where DTV doesn't work well. The one local channel I still get is not watchable a lot of the time.

It really bothers me the FCC response is to tell people in this situation to buy programming from a service provider and yet they do nothing to protect the consumer. So they're right when they say you don't need cable and they're right when they say you don't need TV, but it sucks scum water to be in this situation.

glennb1 · 05-14-2009, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crabby_bob

I feel for you. I took the "you don't need cable tv so drop them" path a few years ago. The problem is analog is going away which means some of the channels I used to watch, and almost all my local channels, are going away because I'm in a fringe area where DTV doesn't work well. The one local channel I still get is not watchable a lot of the time.

It really bothers me the FCC response is to tell people in this situation to buy programming from a service provider and yet they do nothing to protect the consumer. So they're right when they say you don't need cable and they're right when they say you don't need TV, but it sucks scum water to be in this situation.

I can tell how you got your name crabby_bob.

crabby_bob · 05-15-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glennb1

I can tell how you got your name crabby_bob.

Yeah, I found out I'm paying taxes to support the FCC.

Filekhasper · 06-06-2009, 07:56 PM

The government made a couple 12 million/billion dollars(If I recall correctly) off of selling that spectrum to wireless companies... Thats why you get a coupon to buy a Digital TV box...

keep in mind that digital cable and digital tv are two totally different things...

85MustangJeff · 06-09-2009, 07:59 PM

Same thing is happening here in MASS. I have everything from Comcast HD tivo and all the bells and whistles, so I don't have any issues.

BUT my area is great for off air antennas. My neighbor has one and he went to antennaweb.org and got all the info he needed for azimuth and which antenna he needed. He grabs HD and it looks great! Is that a possibility for you off air antenna?

Jeff

bicker · 06-10-2009, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bicker

Also, DirecTV, Dish Network, Cox, Charter, RCN, and FiOS all also charge extra for extra boxes. Cox, Charter, RCN, and FiOS have all been, at one time or another, accused of telling people that they had to pay for things that they didn't need to; and the only reason why DirectTV and Dish Network haven't be accused of that is because they don't provide any service without a box on every television.

Auburnfan23: Please post a list of the subscription television providers that do not charge extra for extra boxes.

I guess that means that you weren't able to identify any. Don't worry, I couldn't either. That's why it makes sense that Comcast is doing what they're doing: All the competitors have done so, already, and some are using the additional capacity that they've gained in doing so as a bludgeon in their competition against Comcast. So Comcast had better start moving in that direction, switching away from analog service, and switching to "all-digital" service. Though I do understand that you personally don't care for that change.

crabby_bob · 06-10-2009, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bicker

I guess that means that you weren't able to identify any. Don't worry, I couldn't either. That's why it makes sense that Comcast is doing what they're doing: All the competitors have done so, already, and some are using the additional capacity that they've gained in doing so as a bludgeon in their competition against Comcast. So Comcast had better start moving in that direction, switching away from analog service, and switching to "all-digital" service. Though I do understand that you personally don't care for that change.

I've never seen a commercial where Cox, Charter, or Time Warner mention Comcast or any other cable provider. I always figured that's because there's really no competition between cable providers for individual consumers. In my town for example I can't purchase service from anyone but Comcast. Does anyone have more than 1 cable provider available? If so please let me know which town you live in so I can go to city hall and ask about getting more providers. I'll use your town as a reference. Thanks.

05-11-2009, 10:25 PM	#1
ranbob Hi-Fi Nut Turned HD Nut Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 47	Really PO'd at Comcast! Okay, I'm sure it's my own fault for not really understanding things and this doesn't affect me. It affects my mother in law. I thought when you subscribed to basic or expanded basic, you got the local area channels plus a few more. On June 12th, local channels are going all digital. Great! Local channels here (Seattle) will then be entirely digital with most being that the digital signal is HD. Now Comcast has installed a box to her set so that she can receive digital signals. She doesn't need the box as her tv is a Sony HD with a QAM tuner. Now she doesn't get the local HD programming! When she asked about this, they told her that she should have been paying for it all along. Bullshit! If the local signal is HD, then it should be included in her basic package! Oh yeah, they say that they will be scrambling all of their signals so you have to use their little 'converter' boxes whether you have a digital tuner or not. This to me, is an out and out ripoff! She, and several others are writing letters to her home owner's association (which supplies basic cable as part of her assoc. fees) as well as the FCC. Comcast has you covered? Yeah, your bank account if you want their service!

05-12-2009, 10:31 AM	#5
auburnfan23 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 31	Comcast and Time Warner will rip you off at any turn. Any little thing they can do like charging extra for boxes and such when you do not even need them they will do it in a heartbeat.. __________________ Samsung LN52A650 52-Inch 1080p 120 Hz LCD TV Comparisons

06-09-2009, 07:59 PM	#13
85MustangJeff HD Rocks! Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Acushnet, Massachusetts Age: 34 Posts: 103	Same thing is happening here in MASS. I have everything from Comcast HD tivo and all the bells and whistles, so I don't have any issues. BUT my area is great for off air antennas. My neighbor has one and he went to antennaweb.org and got all the info he needed for azimuth and which antenna he needed. He grabs HD and it looks great! Is that a possibility for you off air antenna? Jeff __________________ Epson Home Cinema 6100 Projector 100" Screen 16:9 Format Fixed Frame Monster Speaker Cables & HDMI Monster HDP 2400 Panasonic DMP-BD55 Comcast HD Tivo Direct TV HD DVR Onkyo HT-R530 2 Def Tech Pro Monitors 800 1 Def Tech Pro Center 1000 ****************************** FUTURE PURCHASES Definitive Technology ProMonitor 800 @4 Pioneer Elite SC07 HT Receiver

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05-12-2009, 09:35 AM	#4
bicker High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burlington, MA Posts: 1,532	So if Fallingwater is correct, your beef is with the FCC and your local government officials, not with Comcast.

05-12-2009, 10:50 AM	#6
Suby High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 87	man thats really sad to hear, I'd be pretty pissed.. too much the competition isn't any better.

05-12-2009, 04:50 PM	#8
bicker High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burlington, MA Posts: 1,532	Also, DirecTV, Dish Network, Cox, Charter, RCN, and FiOS all also charge extra for extra boxes. Cox, Charter, RCN, and FiOS have all been, at one time or another, accused of telling people that they had to pay for things that they didn't need to; and the only reason why DirectTV and Dish Network haven't be accused of that is because they don't provide any service without a box on every television. Auburnfan23: Please post a list of the subscription television providers that do not charge extra for extra boxes.

06-06-2009, 07:56 PM	#12
Filekhasper High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 41	The government made a couple 12 million/billion dollars(If I recall correctly) off of selling that spectrum to wireless companies... Thats why you get a coupon to buy a Digital TV box... keep in mind that digital cable and digital tv are two totally different things...