Blue Ray may not be worth it for it for me.

Sole_Survivor · 07-06-2005, 04:00 PM

With a all the talk about the new Blue Ray & all, I wanted to add my input about the 1080 upconverter DVD players that are currently being sold.
As I bought it I heard some bad reviews, people saying that they don't up convert, but I noticed the Denon 1910 is doing the job, with DVDs that were originally shot in HD.
I noticed it with Lord Of The Rings, I didn't know my wife had a DVD on, so I clicked the remote to see what HD channel she had on, and to my surprise, it was a DVD in the Denon.
My friend had just bought the Eagles concert that was in HD on NBC recently, & the Denon did it once again.
I was disappointed watching the box set of Friends & Charmed, but was very satisfied with the first season box set of CSI Miami.
Friends & Charmed were not filmed in HD, but all the DVD's I put in that up convert the picture were filmed in HD wide screen, in other words, you can get blood from a stone.
I am a CSI Miami buff, I know that the HD quality in that show is the best out there, on a scale of 1 to 4 I will give CSI Miami a 4.
Face it, we all seen HD shows & movies that don't have the same quality, like NCIS, is not as good as CSI Miami, I would call NCIS a level 2 HD on a scale of 1 to 4.
On the Denon 1910, I would rate CSI Miami about solid 3 HD, on a level of 1 to 4.
If my Denon presents all DVD'd that were recorded in HD at his level, I will not be investing in the new Blue Ray DVD players.
Now that doesn't say much for all the 4.3 DVD's I have, but I'm not too big on buying old DVD's like Happy Days. If this gets released in the new format about to come out, it will be in HD, where my Denon won't do it with the standard DVD,s, again because Happy days was not filmed HD Widescreen.
I noticed that pattern, draw your own conclusion, but I'm sticking with this format.
If anyone is interested in this DVD player, your TV must have a DVI or HDMI input or it will not upconvert.

RSawdey · 07-07-2005, 06:21 PM

The best quality DVDs are made from HD digital masters, but after down conversion to 480i/30. They are NOT 'recorded in HDTV'. Upconverting players can't invent detail that isn't stored on the disc... best case is a perceived res of 480 lines, no matter how many lines that's scaled to...

If 'Happy Days' was FILMED not VIDEOED, then a new HD res digital master can be made from the master... 35 mm film is higher res than HD.

Sole_Survivor · 07-08-2005, 07:15 AM

What you're saying is true, I don't understand it, all I can say is that there is a massive difference in the picture quality on a DVD in 480 that was originally shot in HD converted down to 480, compared to it being in 480 from the get go... a big difference????

strawberry · 07-08-2005, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor

What you're saying is true, I don't understand it, all I can say is that there is a massive difference in the picture quality on a DVD in 480 that was originally shot in HD converted down to 480, compared to it being in 480 from the get go... a big difference????

That's not exactly what R.Sawdey was saying. I'll put it to you like this- standard DVD's are encoded with video files that hold 480 lines of resolution- that's the maximum amount for any standard, NTSC compliant DVD. Just about any movie, whether shot on film or in an HD format, has a much higher ceiling than this in terms of resolution.

All that an upscaling player does is present the DVD at 720p or 1080i, but it doesn't change the fact that the content on the disc contains 480 lines. Fixed-pixel displays, such as DLP and LCD sets, have only one native resolution that they can run at, which is usually 720p. Any other signal type that you pipe in has to be either upconverted or downconverted on the fly to 720p by a special chip in the TV. Some TV's do a relatively poor job of upscaling these signals when compared to the algorithms used by upscaling players. The end result can be noticeable, but it depends on your specific TV more than anything else.

HD-DVD's and BR discs, when they come out, will contain video files encoded with 1080 lines- which is a big step up from current DVD's.

Sole_Survivor · 07-09-2005, 06:11 AM

Hey I really appreciate your help,
But I just found something out ... OK, you're going to laugh, but it will make you realize I was telling the truth about the difference in DVD quality.
I was guessing, but I was wrong when I said if the show was originally shot in HD .... what I found out is that ... the DVD that I saw that I said upscaled to high definition are called anamorphic widescreen DVD's. Through my research last night, I found that out.
Now you guys probably already know what I'm going to say, but I found out that when the anamorphic DVD is played on a widescreen TV, it releases all of the pixels, in contrast to it being matted which was using around half the pixels, anyway here is the article.

I knew I wasn't seeing things...

http://www.audiolinks.nl/anamorphic/anamorphic.htm

I had to do some research and find out why this CSI Miami first season was a true 720p on my set, it blew me the #%$& away guys really.
All I can say is for sure that I now know why, & if all these anamorphic widescreen DVD's upconvert like this CSI Miami, and if this is the way they are going to be made, I will not be getting Blue Ray. Believe me guys I know that HD look, I watch CSI Miami every week with no box, just an antenna and my TV, maybe it's the set up I have because you all enlightened me with the fact that upscalers work with fixed pixel or fixed panel resolution and that's what I have as well as you just telling me the fact that my set has a 720 up scaling chip.
So maybe it's the fixed pixel, the player, the chip in the TV, & the anamorphic DVD all working together, if that's the case, I wouldn't want anyone reading this thinking all they have to do is buy this DVD player and they have a 720 picture.
All I know I'm getting HD going this route.

Believe me you see that picture of the alien I have in the upper left hand corner, that was me watching the CSI Miami box set.

strawberry · 07-09-2005, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor

Hey I really appreciate your help,
But I just found something out ... OK, you're going to laugh, but it will make you realize I was telling the truth about the difference in DVD quality.
I was guessing, but I was wrong when I said if the show was originally shot in HD .... what I found out is that ... the DVD that I saw that I said upscaled to high definition are called anamorphic widescreen DVD's. Through my research last night, I found that out.
Now you guys probably already know what I'm going to say, but I found out that when the anamorphic DVD is played on a widescreen TV, it releases all of the pixels, in contrast to it being matted which was using around half the pixels, anyway here is the article.

I knew I wasn't seeing things...

http://www.audiolinks.nl/anamorphic/anamorphic.htm

I had to do some research and find out why this CSI Miami first season was a true 720p on my set, it blew me the #%$& away guys really.
All I can say is for sure that I now know why, & if all these anamorphic widescreen DVD's upconvert like this CSI Miami, and if this is the way they are going to be made, I will not be getting Blue Ray. Believe me guys I know that HD look, I watch CSI Miami every week with no box, just an antenna and my TV, maybe it's the set up I have because you all enlightened me with the fact that upscalers work with fixed pixel or fixed panel resolution and that's what I have as well as you just telling me the fact that my set has a 720 up scaling chip.
So maybe it's the fixed pixel, the player, the chip in the TV, & the anamorphic DVD all working together, if that's the case, I wouldn't want anyone reading this thinking all they have to do is buy this DVD player and they have a 720 picture.
All I know I'm getting HD going this route.

Believe me you see that picture of the alien I have in the upper left hand corner, that was me watching the CSI Miami box set.

OK- you still have some ideas out of whack here. First of all- anamorphic DVD's are very common, and DO NOT require upscaling players in order to be anamorphic. You can watch any anamorphic WS DVD on your new TV with a regular old progressive-scan DVD player (any DVD player for that matter) and it's still going to be presented in the exact same aspect. Also- there is no increased pixel count with anamorphic DVD's. The difference is that a regular pixel on a non-anamorphic DVD is at a .9 ratio- almost square. A pixel in an anamorphically encoded file is at 1.2, which is much more rectangular. The end result is that each individual pixel is fatter or wider, so when you play the anamorphic signal back on a widescreen TV (assuming your DVD player is set for 16:9 output) the picture will be in native widescreen. The overall pixel count, however, is still the same- you still have 480 lines one direction, and 720 in the other.

The advantage to anamorphic DVD's is that non-anamorphic DVD's have to waste actual pixel space on black bars that go on the top and bottom of the screen in order to present themselves at 16:9, this is probably why you came across some articles that told you the pixel count is higher in anamorphic material. The truth is, though, that the pixel count is the same- it's just that anamorphic WS DVD's don't waste pixels on black bars.

As I said before- upscaling players don't do anything different than standard players with regard to anamorphically encoded DVD's. They use the exact same process, and the resolution of the source file on the DVD is exactly the same no matter what player you put it in. For the manufacturers to call upscaling players 'HD' is nothing but hype, IMO. They give you the advantage of using a digital connection, and the ability to match the native res. of your HD display- but the benefits stop there. 720X480 is 720X480 is 720X480.

Sole_Survivor · 07-09-2005, 01:20 PM

Hey thanks again for the response,
This DVD of CSI Miami has better resolution than watching NCIS in HD, as we know, not all HD shows look the same.
See what happened is, all I been watching for 3 years is HD channels other than the news, I have the HD DVR as well.
So about a year ago I tried to salvage my DVD's by using this player & it wasn't doing much other than making the picture tighter because of the HDMI.
So I ignored DVD, my wife was the only one using it, that is why this technology was unknown to me until last night. When she bought the CSI Miami for me, I was impressed, to me it appears to be the missing link that this upscale DVD player needed.

As far as what you said about it not adding more pixels, , I only learned of this last night, you're right about it not adding or releasing any extra pixels, but it's really kind of the same thing, like you said.
The article at

http://www.audiolinks.nl/anamorphic/anamorphic.htm

stated something to effect of when anamorphic is played on regular 4.3, it is cutting back on the pixels that are there.

It said

"In other words, one-half of the pixels would contain the image and 50% would contain no useful information – just black pixels for the matte. So the DVD frame which could hold 345,600 pixels of information only 175,000 pixels are being used! The wasted pixels results in lost resolution which manifests itself as less sharp, less detailed images."

..... "
The anamorphic DVD process is great for capturing the full resolution and clarity of the original image"

OK...
Now, what I just did,
I have the same TV, the 50 inch we 655 in the living with the Denon HDMI monster connection ... & the 42 inch we655 in the bedroom with the Sony in Progressive scan component monster connection.
Using the same scenes from the same anamorphic DVD.

Because the Denon was set to 720 I was unable to go into the normal mode with my TV's stretch wide feature, where the black barn doors are on the side, that shows, as we know a true 720 output.
I was able to go into that mode with the TV's stretch feature using the Sony 480 Progressive scan.
Detail was better with the Denon, I look at their faces from the same scenes, the pours were clearer & detailed on the Denon, such as a stubby beard, individual dots can be seen better, and they were less detailed & more flushed on the Sony.

Most of all the Sony looked grainier. Not that HD tightness. Yea this Denon is an improvement with anamorphic.

As I said, this anamorphic DVD in the Denon looked better than the 1080 broadcast of NCIS, but I can not say the same when I viewed the anamorphic DVD on the Sony.

If anyone thinks there is not try the Denon with this type of set up. Again, this is HD, I don't believe anyone who knows a HD picture that will look at this and argue with me if I say this is my HD DVR.

My best guess is that the Faroudja chip in the Denon is doing it's job, at least with anamorphic DVD.

strawberry · 07-09-2005, 02:19 PM

Yes, sir- I would imagine that the combination of your Denon + the ability to relieve your TV of doing the upscaling duties is the reason you're seeing improved results with that setup. I'm certainly not trying to convince you to ditch your upscaling player- you're getting great results with it, and it sounds like it's doing a great job for you.

As for some of your TV shows looking better on DVD than in an OTA HD broadcast- I would suggest that you don't take it to heart very much when considering the next-gen formats. Nobody is doing a poorer job of handling HD braodcasts than the networks right now- the bitrates are very low (which leads to a lot of artifacting), and the image is very soft compared to HDNET, HBO HD, etc. HD broadcasts use notoriously low bitrates, and, as of right now, they're all using MPEG-2 transport streams for delivery, which is a dated, non-efficient method. The new codecs that we'll see in use on the next-gen players are a huge step forward compared to MPEG-2.

When looking ahead to the next-gen formats and comparing them to your current upscaling player, I would also bear this in mind: the pixel count for DVD video is around 350,000- and upscaling players cannot do anything to effectively change that. The pixel count for HD-DVD and BR is going to run at almost 2.1 million. I wouldn't suggest to anyone that they take a chance on BR or HD-DVD until the format war is over and prices go down (probably a few years away)- but once we get to that point, the difference between HD discs and your (or any of ours) current setup will be night and day.

Sole_Survivor · 07-09-2005, 03:17 PM

Well, I wouldn't say that CSI on my DVD is better than the CSI 1080 broadcast, but it's close, it looks HD, the DVD of CSI is better than the 1080 broadcast of NCIS.
Yes I'm getting good results, but with this new anamorphic DVD.

I think, terrestrial TV will stick with mpeg2 because of all the integrated sets, where HD NET, HBO, will be switching to mpeg4 on Directv. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You're a lot more knowledgeable than me, I have a few questions if you can help?

From your last post does it mean that the 720 up converter on my TV is bypassed when I set my Denon to 720?

On a fixed panel resolution, if it pushes out the same amount of pixels, are they sort of artificial pixels with a standard broadcast, knowing that there are less pixels on SCI Fi than HD Net?

How Does having a fixed panel resolution get me better results with the Denon DVD player?
Don't mean to bug you too much but if you know the answer to this it would be a help!
Thanx!

strawberry · 07-09-2005, 03:55 PM

Yes- you're absolutely right about DirecTV going to MPEG 4. I think cable systems will have to do the same, but it will take them longer to do it, and, at this point, nothing has been announced.

As for your questions:

#1.) Yes- the point of using an upscaling player (besides having a digital connection) is to set it to output at your TV's native resolution so that the upscaling circuitry in the TV is bypassed.

#2.) Exactamundo. That's what a fixed-pixel display actually is: a TV that displays everything at a single, fixed resolution. If the source has a lower res than your TV, it is upscaled to match. If the source has a higher res than your TV, it is downscaled to match. If the TV is upconverting the picture from a standard def channel- as you say, the extra picture information is artificial in nature. You're not going to see any actual improvement looking at the upscaled version of that channel than you would if you were to see it displayed at it's native res of 480 lines. This is the same thing that happens with your DVD's- which kind of leads us into the answer to your next question...

#3.) Fixed-pixel HD displays stand to see more benefit from upconverting players because most sets of that type are 720p (or thereabouts)- meaning they can't natively display a 480-line picture, which is what all DVD's hold. What this means, as stated above in my answer to your previous question, is that if you're using a standard, progressive-scan DVD player, your TV has to upscale the signal from 480p, which is what it's receiving from the DVD player, to its native resolution of 720p (or thereabouts). Some TV's do a better job of upconversion than others- therefore, it can be to your advantage to buy a DVD player that can perform the upconversion in place of the TV.

In the case of non fixed-pixel HD displays, such as CRT projection sets and tube sets, upconversion is not necessary because CRT sets can change the actual resolution of their picture to match it's source, meaning they can natively display the 480-line image from broadcasts and DVD's without having to convert them to another resolution. (Although, interestingly, CRT-based sets tend to support native display of 480i, 480p, and 1080i, but not 720p. 720p material is upconverted to 1080i in those instances.)

One thing that I haven't really touched on is the difference between interlaced and progressive frame types. It would be easy to write a book about the differences but, in general, all you really need to know is that progressive scanning is just better. It produces a much more stable, sharp image than interlaced formats do. This is why you should set your Denon to 720p output instead of 1080i. Since your TV is progressive frame-based, you're not going to want to pump interlaced signals into it if you can avoid it, otherwise you just wind up with your TV doing more unnecessary work, and a possible downgrade in picture quality.

Sole_Survivor · 07-09-2005, 04:35 PM

Thanx!!!!!!!!

Know I know why the Sony 480p DVD player looks like shit on the fixed panel resolution.
Now I'm going to go & buy the Sony 720/1080 dvd player for the bedroom.

Please answer me one more question,
I been debating if I should keep my HD TIVO in either 720p or 1080i.

They really look the same but I can't say I studied it long enough to notice difference in every situation, sometimes it could be a small thing to a background image or whatever.

My logic is, there are less pixels in a 480 DVD than a 720 broadcast like ABC, so asking the dvd player to convert a 480 DVD to 1080 is asking too much, but one step higher to 720 is easier, that is why I keep the Denon at 720.

I keep the HD Directv TIVO at 1080i, because I figured 1080 real lines can fill 768, but if I keep the TIVO at 720, it has to make up 48 lines that are artificial, since my set is 768.
Plus, there are more pixels in 1080i than 720p, so my logic was, if my set produces 768 progressive, get the maximum amount of pixels from 1080i to show on 768p, since the set is going to show 768p anyway, also like I said, I feel 48 lines would be artificial.
An I right, can you follow me?

strawberry · 07-09-2005, 05:23 PM

It probably doesn't make much difference in this matter. Converting between 1080i and 720p is a much more seamless and less painful process than converting SD material to an HD format. Theoretically, you should probably set your HD Tivo for 720p output, but ESPN, ABC, and FOX are the only HD channels I know of that broadcast in 720p- all the rest broadcast in 1080i, which means they have to be downconverted to 720p to display on your set regardless- whether it's by your HD Tivo or your TV.

In reality, most videophiles will tell you that 720p is the superior format despite the lower per-frame pixel count, simply because the frame format is more stable, and less prone to aliasing. From a spatial standpoint- 720p is actually pushing just as much info through as 1080i.

What's really awesome are the new 1080p displays that are hitting the market right now. The next-gen players will be capable of outputting 1080p, but we don't yet know if or when the studios will actually utilize this format. Not to mention the fact that none of us will benefit from it anyway, since our displays aren't 1080p compatible.

Someday, though....someday....

Sole_Survivor · 07-09-2005, 05:33 PM

Hey thanx again,
I saw some of the 1080p sets with 1080i going into it, was going to buy the 45 inch Sharp LCD 1080p, but wasn't over impressed. I thought the 768p looked just as good, that's wht I bought it.
I think, until there is a a true 1080p signal going into a 1080p TV, 1080p sets are not impressive as the number they are.

RSawdey · 07-09-2005, 07:07 PM

720p.

Sole_Survivor · 07-09-2005, 07:34 PM

To RSawdey
Mr. Wizard,
Do you mean that I should keep my HD TIVO at 720p?

Also to add ........

The pixel resolution may be higher than we thought on a widescreen DVD, I'm now hearing 852 x 480 resolution for widescreen, this is a difference, maybe my eyes are seeing what they are seeing, at this point I don't know if anamorphic has more than widescreen, so what I saw may be higher than 852 x 480, but, .... 852 x 480 brings it closer to a half million pixels.

Maybe the Faroudja chip is doing better with more pixels. I know there is some matter to what I saw... little by little...
Here is my latest source.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messa...79/118003.html

07-09-2005, 06:11 AM	#5
Sole_Survivor Sole Survivor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Providence, RI Age: 41 Posts: 119	Hey I really appreciate your help, But I just found something out ... OK, you're going to laugh, but it will make you realize I was telling the truth about the difference in DVD quality. I was guessing, but I was wrong when I said if the show was originally shot in HD .... what I found out is that ... the DVD that I saw that I said upscaled to high definition are called anamorphic widescreen DVD's. Through my research last night, I found that out. Now you guys probably already know what I'm going to say, but I found out that when the anamorphic DVD is played on a widescreen TV, it releases all of the pixels, in contrast to it being matted which was using around half the pixels, anyway here is the article. I knew I wasn't seeing things... http://www.audiolinks.nl/anamorphic/anamorphic.htm I had to do some research and find out why this CSI Miami first season was a true 720p on my set, it blew me the #%$& away guys really. All I can say is for sure that I now know why, & if all these anamorphic widescreen DVD's upconvert like this CSI Miami, and if this is the way they are going to be made, I will not be getting Blue Ray. Believe me guys I know that HD look, I watch CSI Miami every week with no box, just an antenna and my TV, maybe it's the set up I have because you all enlightened me with the fact that upscalers work with fixed pixel or fixed panel resolution and that's what I have as well as you just telling me the fact that my set has a 720 up scaling chip. So maybe it's the fixed pixel, the player, the chip in the TV, & the anamorphic DVD all working together, if that's the case, I wouldn't want anyone reading this thinking all they have to do is buy this DVD player and they have a 720 picture. All I know I'm getting HD going this route. Believe me you see that picture of the alien I have in the upper left hand corner, that was me watching the CSI Miami box set. Last edited by Sole_Survivor; 07-09-2005 at 06:19 AM.

07-09-2005, 01:20 PM	#7
Sole_Survivor Sole Survivor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Providence, RI Age: 41 Posts: 119	Hey thanks again for the response, This DVD of CSI Miami has better resolution than watching NCIS in HD, as we know, not all HD shows look the same. See what happened is, all I been watching for 3 years is HD channels other than the news, I have the HD DVR as well. So about a year ago I tried to salvage my DVD's by using this player & it wasn't doing much other than making the picture tighter because of the HDMI. So I ignored DVD, my wife was the only one using it, that is why this technology was unknown to me until last night. When she bought the CSI Miami for me, I was impressed, to me it appears to be the missing link that this upscale DVD player needed. As far as what you said about it not adding more pixels, , I only learned of this last night, you're right about it not adding or releasing any extra pixels, but it's really kind of the same thing, like you said. The article at http://www.audiolinks.nl/anamorphic/anamorphic.htm stated something to effect of when anamorphic is played on regular 4.3, it is cutting back on the pixels that are there. It said "In other words, one-half of the pixels would contain the image and 50% would contain no useful information – just black pixels for the matte. So the DVD frame which could hold 345,600 pixels of information only 175,000 pixels are being used! The wasted pixels results in lost resolution which manifests itself as less sharp, less detailed images." ..... " The anamorphic DVD process is great for capturing the full resolution and clarity of the original image" OK... Now, what I just did, I have the same TV, the 50 inch we 655 in the living with the Denon HDMI monster connection ... & the 42 inch we655 in the bedroom with the Sony in Progressive scan component monster connection. Using the same scenes from the same anamorphic DVD. Because the Denon was set to 720 I was unable to go into the normal mode with my TV's stretch wide feature, where the black barn doors are on the side, that shows, as we know a true 720 output. I was able to go into that mode with the TV's stretch feature using the Sony 480 Progressive scan. Detail was better with the Denon, I look at their faces from the same scenes, the pours were clearer & detailed on the Denon, such as a stubby beard, individual dots can be seen better, and they were less detailed & more flushed on the Sony. Most of all the Sony looked grainier. Not that HD tightness. Yea this Denon is an improvement with anamorphic. As I said, this anamorphic DVD in the Denon looked better than the 1080 broadcast of NCIS, but I can not say the same when I viewed the anamorphic DVD on the Sony. If anyone thinks there is not try the Denon with this type of set up. Again, this is HD, I don't believe anyone who knows a HD picture that will look at this and argue with me if I say this is my HD DVR. My best guess is that the Faroudja chip in the Denon is doing it's job, at least with anamorphic DVD. Last edited by Sole_Survivor; 07-09-2005 at 01:32 PM.

07-09-2005, 02:19 PM	#8
strawberry HD is the Lord. Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS Posts: 1,635	Yes, sir- I would imagine that the combination of your Denon + the ability to relieve your TV of doing the upscaling duties is the reason you're seeing improved results with that setup. I'm certainly not trying to convince you to ditch your upscaling player- you're getting great results with it, and it sounds like it's doing a great job for you. As for some of your TV shows looking better on DVD than in an OTA HD broadcast- I would suggest that you don't take it to heart very much when considering the next-gen formats. Nobody is doing a poorer job of handling HD braodcasts than the networks right now- the bitrates are very low (which leads to a lot of artifacting), and the image is very soft compared to HDNET, HBO HD, etc. HD broadcasts use notoriously low bitrates, and, as of right now, they're all using MPEG-2 transport streams for delivery, which is a dated, non-efficient method. The new codecs that we'll see in use on the next-gen players are a huge step forward compared to MPEG-2. When looking ahead to the next-gen formats and comparing them to your current upscaling player, I would also bear this in mind: the pixel count for DVD video is around 350,000- and upscaling players cannot do anything to effectively change that. The pixel count for HD-DVD and BR is going to run at almost 2.1 million. I wouldn't suggest to anyone that they take a chance on BR or HD-DVD until the format war is over and prices go down (probably a few years away)- but once we get to that point, the difference between HD discs and your (or any of ours) current setup will be night and day. __________________ Home Theater Setup ISF-Calibrated Hitachi 57S500 HDTV Denon 2807 AVR 7.1 JBL Venue Series Speaker System Toshiba HD-A1 PS3 60 Gig Xbox 360 Premium Moxi BMC 9022 DVR Logitech Harmony 880 Last edited by strawberry; 07-09-2005 at 02:22 PM.

07-09-2005, 03:55 PM	#10
strawberry HD is the Lord. Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS Posts: 1,635	Yes- you're absolutely right about DirecTV going to MPEG 4. I think cable systems will have to do the same, but it will take them longer to do it, and, at this point, nothing has been announced. As for your questions: #1.) Yes- the point of using an upscaling player (besides having a digital connection) is to set it to output at your TV's native resolution so that the upscaling circuitry in the TV is bypassed. #2.) Exactamundo. That's what a fixed-pixel display actually is: a TV that displays everything at a single, fixed resolution. If the source has a lower res than your TV, it is upscaled to match. If the source has a higher res than your TV, it is downscaled to match. If the TV is upconverting the picture from a standard def channel- as you say, the extra picture information is artificial in nature. You're not going to see any actual improvement looking at the upscaled version of that channel than you would if you were to see it displayed at it's native res of 480 lines. This is the same thing that happens with your DVD's- which kind of leads us into the answer to your next question... #3.) Fixed-pixel HD displays stand to see more benefit from upconverting players because most sets of that type are 720p (or thereabouts)- meaning they can't natively display a 480-line picture, which is what all DVD's hold. What this means, as stated above in my answer to your previous question, is that if you're using a standard, progressive-scan DVD player, your TV has to upscale the signal from 480p, which is what it's receiving from the DVD player, to its native resolution of 720p (or thereabouts). Some TV's do a better job of upconversion than others- therefore, it can be to your advantage to buy a DVD player that can perform the upconversion in place of the TV. In the case of non fixed-pixel HD displays, such as CRT projection sets and tube sets, upconversion is not necessary because CRT sets can change the actual resolution of their picture to match it's source, meaning they can natively display the 480-line image from broadcasts and DVD's without having to convert them to another resolution. (Although, interestingly, CRT-based sets tend to support native display of 480i, 480p, and 1080i, but not 720p. 720p material is upconverted to 1080i in those instances.) One thing that I haven't really touched on is the difference between interlaced and progressive frame types. It would be easy to write a book about the differences but, in general, all you really need to know is that progressive scanning is just better. It produces a much more stable, sharp image than interlaced formats do. This is why you should set your Denon to 720p output instead of 1080i. Since your TV is progressive frame-based, you're not going to want to pump interlaced signals into it if you can avoid it, otherwise you just wind up with your TV doing more unnecessary work, and a possible downgrade in picture quality. __________________ Home Theater Setup ISF-Calibrated Hitachi 57S500 HDTV Denon 2807 AVR 7.1 JBL Venue Series Speaker System Toshiba HD-A1 PS3 60 Gig Xbox 360 Premium Moxi BMC 9022 DVR Logitech Harmony 880 Last edited by strawberry; 07-09-2005 at 03:59 PM.

07-09-2005, 05:23 PM	#12
strawberry HD is the Lord. Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS Posts: 1,635	It probably doesn't make much difference in this matter. Converting between 1080i and 720p is a much more seamless and less painful process than converting SD material to an HD format. Theoretically, you should probably set your HD Tivo for 720p output, but ESPN, ABC, and FOX are the only HD channels I know of that broadcast in 720p- all the rest broadcast in 1080i, which means they have to be downconverted to 720p to display on your set regardless- whether it's by your HD Tivo or your TV. In reality, most videophiles will tell you that 720p is the superior format despite the lower per-frame pixel count, simply because the frame format is more stable, and less prone to aliasing. From a spatial standpoint- 720p is actually pushing just as much info through as 1080i. What's really awesome are the new 1080p displays that are hitting the market right now. The next-gen players will be capable of outputting 1080p, but we don't yet know if or when the studios will actually utilize this format. Not to mention the fact that none of us will benefit from it anyway, since our displays aren't 1080p compatible. Someday, though....someday.... __________________ Home Theater Setup ISF-Calibrated Hitachi 57S500 HDTV Denon 2807 AVR 7.1 JBL Venue Series Speaker System Toshiba HD-A1 PS3 60 Gig Xbox 360 Premium Moxi BMC 9022 DVR Logitech Harmony 880

07-06-2005, 04:00 PM	#1
Sole_Survivor Sole Survivor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Providence, RI Age: 41 Posts: 119	Blue Ray may not be worth it for it for me. With a all the talk about the new Blue Ray & all, I wanted to add my input about the 1080 upconverter DVD players that are currently being sold. As I bought it I heard some bad reviews, people saying that they don't up convert, but I noticed the Denon 1910 is doing the job, with DVDs that were originally shot in HD. I noticed it with Lord Of The Rings, I didn't know my wife had a DVD on, so I clicked the remote to see what HD channel she had on, and to my surprise, it was a DVD in the Denon. My friend had just bought the Eagles concert that was in HD on NBC recently, & the Denon did it once again. I was disappointed watching the box set of Friends & Charmed, but was very satisfied with the first season box set of CSI Miami. Friends & Charmed were not filmed in HD, but all the DVD's I put in that up convert the picture were filmed in HD wide screen, in other words, you can get blood from a stone. I am a CSI Miami buff, I know that the HD quality in that show is the best out there, on a scale of 1 to 4 I will give CSI Miami a 4. Face it, we all seen HD shows & movies that don't have the same quality, like NCIS, is not as good as CSI Miami, I would call NCIS a level 2 HD on a scale of 1 to 4. On the Denon 1910, I would rate CSI Miami about solid 3 HD, on a level of 1 to 4. If my Denon presents all DVD'd that were recorded in HD at his level, I will not be investing in the new Blue Ray DVD players. Now that doesn't say much for all the 4.3 DVD's I have, but I'm not too big on buying old DVD's like Happy Days. If this gets released in the new format about to come out, it will be in HD, where my Denon won't do it with the standard DVD,s, again because Happy days was not filmed HD Widescreen. I noticed that pattern, draw your own conclusion, but I'm sticking with this format. If anyone is interested in this DVD player, your TV must have a DVI or HDMI input or it will not upconvert.

07-07-2005, 06:21 PM	#2
RSawdey Mr. Wizard Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ferndale, Michigan Age: 61 Posts: 5,981	The best quality DVDs are made from HD digital masters, but after down conversion to 480i/30. They are NOT 'recorded in HDTV'. Upconverting players can't invent detail that isn't stored on the disc... best case is a perceived res of 480 lines, no matter how many lines that's scaled to... If 'Happy Days' was FILMED not VIDEOED, then a new HD res digital master can be made from the master... 35 mm film is higher res than HD.

07-08-2005, 07:15 AM	#3
Sole_Survivor Sole Survivor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Providence, RI Age: 41 Posts: 119	What you're saying is true, I don't understand it, all I can say is that there is a massive difference in the picture quality on a DVD in 480 that was originally shot in HD converted down to 480, compared to it being in 480 from the get go... a big difference????

07-09-2005, 03:17 PM	#9
Sole_Survivor Sole Survivor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Providence, RI Age: 41 Posts: 119	Well, I wouldn't say that CSI on my DVD is better than the CSI 1080 broadcast, but it's close, it looks HD, the DVD of CSI is better than the 1080 broadcast of NCIS. Yes I'm getting good results, but with this new anamorphic DVD. I think, terrestrial TV will stick with mpeg2 because of all the integrated sets, where HD NET, HBO, will be switching to mpeg4 on Directv. Correct me if I'm wrong. You're a lot more knowledgeable than me, I have a few questions if you can help? From your last post does it mean that the 720 up converter on my TV is bypassed when I set my Denon to 720? On a fixed panel resolution, if it pushes out the same amount of pixels, are they sort of artificial pixels with a standard broadcast, knowing that there are less pixels on SCI Fi than HD Net? How Does having a fixed panel resolution get me better results with the Denon DVD player? Don't mean to bug you too much but if you know the answer to this it would be a help! Thanx!

07-09-2005, 04:35 PM	#11
Sole_Survivor Sole Survivor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Providence, RI Age: 41 Posts: 119	Thanx!!!!!!!! Know I know why the Sony 480p DVD player looks like shit on the fixed panel resolution. Now I'm going to go & buy the Sony 720/1080 dvd player for the bedroom. Please answer me one more question, I been debating if I should keep my HD TIVO in either 720p or 1080i. They really look the same but I can't say I studied it long enough to notice difference in every situation, sometimes it could be a small thing to a background image or whatever. My logic is, there are less pixels in a 480 DVD than a 720 broadcast like ABC, so asking the dvd player to convert a 480 DVD to 1080 is asking too much, but one step higher to 720 is easier, that is why I keep the Denon at 720. I keep the HD Directv TIVO at 1080i, because I figured 1080 real lines can fill 768, but if I keep the TIVO at 720, it has to make up 48 lines that are artificial, since my set is 768. Plus, there are more pixels in 1080i than 720p, so my logic was, if my set produces 768 progressive, get the maximum amount of pixels from 1080i to show on 768p, since the set is going to show 768p anyway, also like I said, I feel 48 lines would be artificial. An I right, can you follow me?

07-09-2005, 05:33 PM	#13
Sole_Survivor Sole Survivor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Providence, RI Age: 41 Posts: 119	Hey thanx again, I saw some of the 1080p sets with 1080i going into it, was going to buy the 45 inch Sharp LCD 1080p, but wasn't over impressed. I thought the 768p looked just as good, that's wht I bought it. I think, until there is a a true 1080p signal going into a 1080p TV, 1080p sets are not impressive as the number they are.

07-09-2005, 07:07 PM	#14
RSawdey Mr. Wizard Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ferndale, Michigan Age: 61 Posts: 5,981	720p.

07-09-2005, 07:34 PM	#15
Sole_Survivor Sole Survivor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Providence, RI Age: 41 Posts: 119	To RSawdey Mr. Wizard, Do you mean that I should keep my HD TIVO at 720p? Also to add ........ The pixel resolution may be higher than we thought on a widescreen DVD, I'm now hearing 852 x 480 resolution for widescreen, this is a difference, maybe my eyes are seeing what they are seeing, at this point I don't know if anamorphic has more than widescreen, so what I saw may be higher than 852 x 480, but, .... 852 x 480 brings it closer to a half million pixels. Maybe the Faroudja chip is doing better with more pixels. I know there is some matter to what I saw... little by little... Here is my latest source. http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messa...79/118003.html

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