The New Pioneer with Dual HDMI Outs...Is This Worth a Look?

Techlord · 06-17-2009, 04:38 PM

Do most Blu-ray players send an unaltered audio signal to an AVR? I would think that the video portion would be processed by the BD player, but not the audio portion because thats the job for the AVR, right?

Loves2Watch · 06-17-2009, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techlord

Do most Blu-ray players send an unaltered audio signal to an AVR? I would think that the video portion would be processed by the BD player, but not the audio portion because thats the job for the AVR, right?

On many BD players you can send an unaltered signal or you can send a signal to be processed by the AVR. Bitstream and PCM or LPCM is what they are called.

Peter Marlowe · 06-18-2009, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIslander

Yes, and there will still be issues many more years down the road. There are limits to how far a signal can be reliably transmitted. Follow the specs and the cable will work just fine.

This concerns me in that the specs for the traveling distance still haven't been ironed out; I am making rather small runs in my setup, so I never had to consider the run distance.

Quote:

"High speed" is the term that HDMI uses for one of the two types of cables that it certifies. "Standard" is the other. The HDMI website clearly delineates the usages. I recommend you do some of your HDMI research there. "High speed" cables are needed for deep color and a few other things that I can't remember off the top of my head.

According to all the marketing "jargon" I have received directly from Monster and Phoenix, these high speed cables seem to serve a more linear purpose in terms of getting the signal to a device "cleaner" and "more reliably" with "less signal loss" at the terminal end; I personally never subscribed to this, but I was curious...

At any rate, I am using a Monster 1.3a-rated cable to connect my BD player with my receiver, and a second heavily-shielded/insulated HDMI run from receiver to display...

Quote:

Some people prefer to use a different input on the display for each device. That enables them to fine tune the set-up for each one. They have to bypass the AVR for video in that case. A second HDMI output would be used to feed audio to a processor. But, it's not a problem of the cable or HDMI protocol being unable to handle both audio and video. It's just the requirements of a particular wiring scheme.

Well, that kind of setup is definitely not in my protocol -- individually setting up an input on a display for each source makes sense from an overall picture quality standard point of view, as one input isn't sharing two sources; but in my case, ONE source deck is providing both DVD and BD video, not running at the same time, so I assume ONE input on the display would suffice...

But I was curious about this Pioneer's, in getting back on thread topic, dual HDMI outs because it seemed very intriguing to separate audio from video over two HDMI streams out of one player -- this way, high resolution codecs can be bitstreamed to a processor and the 1080p video could be sent over HDMI to a display...separately.

Peter Marlowe · 06-18-2009, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techlord

Do most Blu-ray players send an unaltered audio signal to an AVR? I would think that the video portion would be processed by the BD player, but not the audio portion because thats the job for the AVR, right?

When the BD player is setup to send BITSTREAMED signals from it, the audio IS untouched by the player in that case -- the AVR handles the signal at that point. But when the BD player is INTERNALLY handling decoding and processing for audio tracks (by setting the output for a codec to "PCM") then the PLAYER is not really sending that signal "unaltered;" although there has been much speculation on this debate when it comes to HDMI pass...

My situation is unique because I am sending DECODED Dolby TrueHD signals as multichannel PCM from my BD player OVER HDMI -- NOT multichannel analog as most do -- because my player will not bitstream TrueHD. The issue has been...is the player "touching" these signals before they're sent to my receiver or are they being sent "unaltered" as you call it?

BIslander · 06-19-2009, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Marlowe

This concerns me in that the specs for the traveling distance still haven't been ironed out; I am making rather small runs in my setup, so I never had to consider the run distance.

And you still don't.

Quote:

According to all the marketing "jargon" I have received directly from Monster and Phoenix, these high speed cables seem to serve a more linear purpose in terms of getting the signal to a device "cleaner" and "more reliably" with "less signal loss" at the terminal end; I personally never subscribed to this, but I was curious...

At any rate, I am using a Monster 1.3a-rated cable to connect my BD player with my receiver, and a second heavily-shielded/insulated HDMI run from receiver to display...

Check the specification information on the cable packaging. As I said, the FAQs at the HDMI website explain the two designations (category 1 = "standard" and category 2 = "high speed"). For example: "High Speed (or “category 2”) cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 340Mhz, which is the highest bandwidth currently available over an HDMI cable and can successfully handle 1080p signals including those at increased color depths and/or increased refresh rates. High-Speed cables are also able to accommodate higher resolution displays, such as WQXGA cinema monitors (resolution of 2560 x 1600)."

Quote:

Well, that kind of setup is definitely not in my protocol -- individually setting up an input on a display for each source makes sense from an overall picture quality standard point of view, as one input isn't sharing two sources; but in my case, ONE source deck is providing both DVD and BD video, not running at the same time, so I assume ONE input on the display would suffice...

But I was curious about this Pioneer's, in getting back on thread topic, dual HDMI outs because it seemed very intriguing to separate audio from video over two HDMI streams out of one player -- this way, high resolution codecs can be bitstreamed to a processor and the 1080p video could be sent over HDMI to a display...separately.

I must not have made my point very clearly. Some people want separate video feeds to their displays from each device. That particular wiring scheme requires players with two HDMI outputs - one output that goes to the TV for video and a second output that goes to the AVR for audio. Without the second HDMI, you'd have to use analog for lossless audio. That's a reason why someone might want two HDMI outputs, a reason that has nothing to do with your worries over whether HDMI can carry both audio and video together.

BIslander · 06-19-2009, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Marlowe

When the BD player is setup to send BITSTREAMED signals from it, the audio IS untouched by the player in that case -- the AVR handles the signal at that point. But when the BD player is INTERNALLY handling decoding and processing for audio tracks (by setting the output for a codec to "PCM") then the PLAYER is not really sending that signal "unaltered;" although there has been much speculation on this debate when it comes to HDMI pass...

Decoding and processing are different animals, which has been noted more than a few times in these threads.

Decoding is nothing more than unzipping a zipped up file. That produces PCM. With lossless, it's the exact same PCM that was sent into the encoder from the studio master and the exact same PCM that gets produced when the AVR does the decoding.

Quote:

My situation is unique because I am sending DECODED Dolby TrueHD signals as multichannel PCM from my BD player OVER HDMI -- NOT multichannel analog as most do -- because my player will not bitstream TrueHD. The issue has been...is the player "touching" these signals before they're sent to my receiver or are they being sent "unaltered" as you call it?

Your player decodes TrueHD and sends the resulting PCM to your receiver for processing. Your player doesn't do any processing itself. It doesn't do bass management or distance adjustments or apply EQ or any DSPs such as ProLogic II. It just unzips the file and ships out the PCM.

Perhaps your current player is broken and it does things it's not supposed to do. The BD10A is a very early model and I think it might have the LFE bug that was fixed via firmware on the BD30. But, you're looking to replace it with something more current. All the new players bitstream and you have a receiver that decodes all formats. So, you really can't go wrong.

Nikopol · 06-19-2009, 01:23 AM

Quote:

My situation is unique because I am sending DECODED Dolby TrueHD signals as multichannel PCM from my BD player OVER HDMI -- NOT multichannel analog as most do -- because my player will not bitstream TrueHD. The issue has been...is the player "touching" these signals before they're sent to my receiver or are they being sent "unaltered" as you call it?

This situation isn't "unique" at all. E.g. no PS3 can bitstream HD audio and no PS3 has analog multichannel outputs. The only way to have lossless audio with a PS3 is to let it decode the lossless audio track inside the PS3 and then have decoded signal sent out via HDMI to a receiver capable of accepting multichannel PCM from its HDMI inputs. The PS3 is probably the most common Blu-ray player btw.

iserum · 06-19-2009, 09:56 PM

in case of DVD it was OK to do bitstream and do decoding in AVR (benefit for high end AVR with better decoders inside). In case of BD because of secondary audio it is better to decode in player. so players with better decoders are more desireable on BD side. there are no substantail proof yet that decoding in player is better or worse as compared to AVR, so if people have old HDMI (expensive/high end ) AVR which do not decode advanced audio it is better to get a bd players which decodes everything. At this point only BD player have advance audio codec all other medium have DD.

Peter Marlowe · 06-19-2009, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIslander

And you still don't.

What...need longer HDMI runs?

Quote:

Check the specification information on the cable packaging. As I said, the FAQs at the HDMI website explain the two designations (category 1 = "standard" and category 2 = "high speed"). For example: "High Speed (or “category 2”) cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 340Mhz, which is the highest bandwidth currently available over an HDMI cable and can successfully handle 1080p signals including those at increased color depths and/or increased refresh rates. High-Speed cables are also able to accommodate higher resolution displays, such as WQXGA cinema monitors (resolution of 2560 x 1600)."

I had an actual fax sent over to me regarding the differences in the "speed-rated" cables from Monster, simply clarifying -- in their explanation -- why "high speed" should transmit the data with much less "loss" or "error;" at any rate, the main area of the topic is this Pioneer with dual HDMI out...

Quote:

I must not have made my point very clearly. Some people want separate video feeds to their displays from each device. That particular wiring scheme requires players with two HDMI outputs - one output that goes to the TV for video and a second output that goes to the AVR for audio. Without the second HDMI, you'd have to use analog for lossless audio. That's a reason why someone might want two HDMI outputs, a reason that has nothing to do with your worries over whether HDMI can carry both audio and video together.

Okay, there are two different discussions being handled here -- first, your explanation of: "Some people want separate video feeds to their displays from each device. That particular wiring scheme requires players with two HDMI outputs - one output that goes to the TV for video and a second output that goes to the AVR for audio." seems to correspond with what I was originally talking about with regard to this Pioneer and my needs, but also touches on a different matter; while I don't need to prepare what you suggest early on in your statement, I DO question the merits and benefits of separating audio and video from ONE source deck -- as you said, one going to display for video and another HDMI going to AVR for audio -- and that is the whole essence behind my interest in this Pioneer.

Peter Marlowe · 06-19-2009, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIslander

Decoding and processing are different animals, which has been noted more than a few times in these threads.

Perhaps I should have been a bit more thorough in my explanation to that member -- I was trying to break it down as simply as possible for him; sure, processing and decoding are two different things, but when a track is decoded internally by a player into multichannel PCM, there has been speculation (as with my Panny BD10A) that either the player IS also doing additional "processing" along with that decoding (i.e. evaluating for distances, volume levels, etc.) OR it is passing it through to an AVR/processor to be "processed" there...

Quote:

Your player decodes TrueHD and sends the resulting PCM to your receiver for processing. Your player doesn't do any processing itself. It doesn't do bass management or distance adjustments or apply EQ or any DSPs such as ProLogic II. It just unzips the file and ships out the PCM.

This has been a MULTIPLE PAGE debate over at AVS -- just to name one site -- regarding the BD10A's behavior with regard to decoding and touching or untouching the decoded signal for processing; it was actually suggested by one member over there who seemed to have a great deal of knowledge on the Panny products (Lee Bailey) that FROM ALL ACCOUNTS THUS FAR, decoded signals being passed even over HDMI on the BD10A WERE somehow being "processed" by the player...

But I think we're having a misunderstanding about the definition of processing and perhaps it may be on my end that things have been made unclear...maybe PROCESSING isn't the word I mean to use; I mean to describe the process whereby speaker levels, delays, distances, etc. are APPLIED by the player IN ADDITION TO DECODING the tracks. This may be where the confusion lies; my apologies to that member for confusing him even more.

Quote:

Perhaps your current player is broken and it does things it's not supposed to do. The BD10A is a very early model and I think it might have the LFE bug that was fixed via firmware on the BD30. But, you're looking to replace it with something more current. All the new players bitstream and you have a receiver that decodes all formats. So, you really can't go wrong.

Right -- exactly what I know and understand and thus the reason for my new player search. Additionally, I don't think my player has the LFE bug (I'm well aware of it and its characteristics) because Blu-rays decoded (TrueHD) by the player carry a WALLOP of LFE to my sub -- The Dark Knight is a good example -- indicating there's really no "shortage of bass."

HOWEVER, this still doesn't get back on track, so to speak, regarding my questions about this new Pioneer and whether the splitting of audio and video from a player with dual HDMI outs would be beneficial over sending them via ONE cable, as I do now, with video going through an AVR.

Peter Marlowe · 06-19-2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikopol

This situation isn't "unique" at all. E.g. no PS3 can bitstream HD audio and no PS3 has analog multichannel outputs. The only way to have lossless audio with a PS3 is to let it decode the lossless audio track inside the PS3 and then have decoded signal sent out via HDMI to a receiver capable of accepting multichannel PCM from its HDMI inputs. The PS3 is probably the most common Blu-ray player btw.

It was my understanding that the method I use -- sending decoded multichannel TrueHD PCM (and uncompressed PCM) over HDMI -- was far less common than folks using their analog outs to do the same process.

BIslander · 06-20-2009, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Marlowe

...there has been speculation...

Speculation? Let's try to be more substantive.

Quote:

I think we're having a misunderstanding about the definition of processing and perhaps it may be on my end that things have been made unclear...maybe PROCESSING isn't the word I mean to use; I mean to describe the process whereby speaker levels, delays, distances, etc. are APPLIED by the player IN ADDITION TO DECODING the tracks. This may be where the confusion lies; my apologies to that member for confusing him even more.

Your definition is right. But, your understanding beyond that is wrong. Players don't do that kind of processing for digital output. They merely unzip the file. Nothing more. Bass management, distance adjustments, and output levels are left to the AVR. That kind of processing is only done with analog output.

Quote:

I don't think my player has the LFE bug (I'm well aware of it and its characteristics) because Blu-rays decoded (TrueHD) by the player carry a WALLOP of LFE to my sub -- The Dark Knight is a good example -- indicating there's really no "shortage of bass."

Sorry, but the LFE bug is a well documented problem with the BD10 players. Panasonic issued a fix for the BD30 early last year, but the BD10 is not getting one. It seems ironic, Peter, that you seem to worry about many non-existent problems. But, the real one in your player doesn't bother you a bit.

btw, you can get plenty of bass with the LFE bug. The fatal problem comes with bass management, where LFE and redirected bass are mixed at the wrong levels.

Peter Marlowe · 06-20-2009, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIslander

Speculation? Let's try to be more substantive.

This is taken out of context; this has been the subject of "online debate" since the BD10/A was released and has been discussed with owners and users. There never was any kind of definite, substantive answer as to what this player is doing with internally decoded TrueHD PCM streams.

Quote:

Your definition is right. But, your understanding beyond that is wrong. Players don't do that kind of processing for digital output. They merely unzip the file. Nothing more. Bass management, distance adjustments, and output levels are left to the AVR. That kind of processing is only done with analog output.

No, I am not wrong because I UNDERSTAND what you're saying about the processing at the digital output -- I UNDERSTAND that once bitstreamed in raw format over to a processor/AVR, the signal is processed by the AVR. But what I am saying is that on COUNTLESS, almost infinite threads, on boards such as AVS, the discussion of what the BD10A does BEYOND sending a PCM signal to an AVR or processor has been a subject of TREMENDOUS debate -- I am of the group that questions whether or not the PLAYER'S "multichannel speaker setup" is affecting those PCM signals even though they're only supposed to be affecting analog output. The definition of "processing" as it relates to the Panasonic's setup menu and its operations, is what is of confusion here.

Quote:

Sorry, but the LFE bug is a well documented problem with the BD10 players. Panasonic issued a fix for the BD30 early last year, but the BD10 is not getting one. It seems ironic, Peter, that you seem to worry about many non-existent problems. But, the real one in your player doesn't bother you a bit.

You don't have to apologize, nor do you have to be demonically demeaning; regardless of these "well documented" proof pages, I am not experiencing any issues with LFE on this player. What you call "non-existent" is actually irrelevant; why is the issue of sending audio and video over HDMI with no resolution loss/issues non existent? Why can't I question the possibility of a source deck improving its performance by including two HDMI outs?

Quote:

btw, you can get plenty of bass with the LFE bug. The fatal problem comes with bass management, where LFE and redirected bass are mixed at the wrong levels.

I could very well have the "LFE Bug" -- as it seems to make you happy proving to me that my player has it for some odd, bordering-on-disturbing reason -- but what I'm saying is that I'm not experiencing any LFE problems in my listening room with the BD10A.

Isn't there any way we can get back to the topic point, which was the benefits of dual HDMI outs -- or non-benefits -- on players such as this new Pioneer?

**PFC5** · 06-20-2009, 07:23 AM

Peter:

BIslander is trying to help you understand what you are asking and help you. It may have come across to YOU that he was posting in a "demeaning way", but I think he was just trying to say that instead of worrying about something we could really never know "might' possibly be wrong to concentrate on what IS wrong with your player and well documented.

Any given BD player could "possibly" not handle something correctly just like any other product, but the BD players we have suggested to you appear to NOT have such issues you worry about, so you should not look for problems that do not exist with such players and just concentrate on replacing one that DOES have issues that you currently own now.

BIslander · 06-20-2009, 07:54 AM

Peter, this particular exchange began because of a statement you made to Techlord in which you claimed that player decoding alters the audio before passing it to a receiver. Here:

Quote:

...when the BD player is INTERNALLY handling decoding and processing for audio tracks (by setting the output for a codec to "PCM") then the PLAYER is not really sending that signal "unaltered;"

That was not a statement about your player, the BD10. It was a general statement about player decoding. And, it is simply incorrect. I want to make that point for others who may read this thread.

(It is also not true of the BD10. I read those threads at AVS which were still quite active at the time I was researching my purchase. There was confusion by a few people over whether the analog settings affected PCM output. But, as I recall, that was just confusion. After the dust settled, the only established problem with the player was the LFE bug.)

Just to finish this up - decoding players do not process the audio in any way prior to PCM transmission. They merely unzip the encoded audio file to produce PCM. They do not apply bass management, add delays, or even trim channel output levels. Those adjustments are only done for analog output. A few players have options that allow the user to apply processing to the PCM output. That happens with the higher end Denon and Marantz units. But, those are features that the user chooses to employ.

06-17-2009, 04:38 PM	#46
Techlord High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Orange County, California Posts: 1,275	Do most Blu-ray players send an unaltered audio signal to an AVR? I would think that the video portion would be processed by the BD player, but not the audio portion because thats the job for the AVR, right? __________________ I'll admit when I am wrong, why live in denial? I should have bought a Panasonic Plasma! Samsung LN52B750 240Hz LCD HDTV Oppo Digital BDP-83 Special Edition Denon AVR-5700 THX Ultra Certified Receiver M&K Sound LCR-750 THX Certified 5.1 Speaker System w/V-1250 THX Powered Subwoofer LCD's viewing angle issues seen here! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOYnAmDLXbY

06-19-2009, 09:56 PM	#53
iserum High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,957	in case of DVD it was OK to do bitstream and do decoding in AVR (benefit for high end AVR with better decoders inside). In case of BD because of secondary audio it is better to decode in player. so players with better decoders are more desireable on BD side. there are no substantail proof yet that decoding in player is better or worse as compared to AVR, so if people have old HDMI (expensive/high end ) AVR which do not decode advanced audio it is better to get a bd players which decodes everything. At this point only BD player have advance audio codec all other medium have DD. __________________ Panasonic 50PX80U/Pioneer BDP-51FD /Toshiba HD A1/Tivo HD SAMSUNG LNT-4661F/ Pioneer BDP-51FD/Dell XPS, Nvidia 9500 GT SONY BRAVIA 40V2500/40 GB PS3, WII, Intel Core 2 Duo with Nvidia 6800 Yamaha RXV1700 Def. Tech. Mythos III, V & Gems, Super Cube III Harmony Remote One Power Conditioner: Belkin PF40

06-20-2009, 07:23 AM	#59
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 31,177	Peter: BIslander is trying to help you understand what you are asking and help you. It may have come across to YOU that he was posting in a "demeaning way", but I think he was just trying to say that instead of worrying about something we could really never know "might' possibly be wrong to concentrate on what IS wrong with your player and well documented. Any given BD player could "possibly" not handle something correctly just like any other product, but the BD players we have suggested to you appear to NOT have such issues you worry about, so you should not look for problems that do not exist with such players and just concentrate on replacing one that DOES have issues that you currently own now. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

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