Oppo S83 review

Peter Marlowe · 05-18-2009, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIslander

Sorry, but I think you need to communicate with people who are better informed about how consumer electronics actually work. I don't know what else to say.

Well, this is all relative -- I mean, we're all guilty of doing this at some time or another.

Quote:

Peter - I think you need to do more homework and less posting.

I don't think that's really a fair statement, and it borders on a bit of "rude"; isn't this site here for these specific reasons, so we can all learn from one another? I have gained a great deal of information from people on this site -- and have given some to many as well -- so I don't understand why you would suggest this to someone.

Quote:

PCM is the real thing. TrueHD and all the other encoded soundtracks are not. TrueHD is really just a zip file used to save space. Multichannel PCM tracks are very large. So, they are compressed using a variety of codecs - DD 5.1, DTS, TrueHD, dts-MA. Encoded tracks cannot be played any more than zip files can be read. TrueHD must be decoded (unzipped) back into PCM. TrueHD is lossless, meaning the PCM that comes out at the end is identical to the PCM that went into the encoder at the beginning. TrueHD doesn't alter the original audio in any way.

This is exactly why I aforementioned the fact that so many different people make all this information incredibly daunting and confusing -- what I was asking was, being that you called PCM "the real thing," is the decoded TrueHD signal -- coming in as a PCM stream over HDMI -- the actual decoded soundtrack as intended to be heard on the disc? Most experience leads us to recall the "basic" experiences with DVD, where Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks were simply bitstreamed over to a receiver.

Quote:

This is not rocket science. There's no confusion about how this stuff works. It's actually pretty simple. Again, I suspect you are talking to the wrong people.

One of those people may be you at the moment -- only because you're claiming it's not "rocket science" (and being a bit condescending in tone towards me) yet providing explanations that are just as confusing and contradicting as the information I have been working with and correlating with other reviewers and product specialists, etc.

Quote:

If you do reviews, you really need to understand this stuff.

I'm not going to debate this with you -- I have "passed" legitimate tests and interview questions/policies with varying sites and publications in order to obtain freelance positions within the DVD/BD review realm; my knowledge of audio parameters and sound/video quality differences have allowed me the status to continue reviewing in these editors' eyes. You claim I need to "understand this stuff" yet it's not really being made simple to grasp -- the things I need to "understand" are other intricate elements of the technology that we're all continuously debating and discussing, and my questions have been part of that.

The problem is, what you're suggesting now regarding decoded TrueHD tracks over HDMI (as a PCM signal) is completely contradicting what some others have reported who have otherwise been 100 percent accurate on the behaviors and functions of this BD10A first generation player -- it's a debate that even hardcore, seriously professional reviewers in the field get involved in, on sites I have visited, and no one tells them that because they themselves are asking questions about certain behaviors of players, they "need to seriously learn this stuff....."

Quote:

I chuckle (and then ignore the rest of the review) when I see someone write about how much better one player bitstreams than another. That is not possible and statements like those merely expose the lack of understanding by the reviewer.

I hope you are not suggesting that one of those statements can be documented as coming from my fingertips -- because I never stated anything to that kind. I never debated the fact that a player may bitstream "better" than another with you, and I don't personally subscribe to that; my argument has been that I can clearly hear a difference between bitstreamed signals from my Panasonic player to my receiver as compared to when the soundtracks are internally decoded into Linear PCM and sent out -- the impact differences are almost surreal in fact (depending on the title). Even more interesting is the transfer of "Uncompressed PCM" soundtracks on certain Blu-ray discs, which sound even less impressive coming from the BD10A. I have said in almost every review I have posted here, which carry these soundtracks, that the lack of energy I experience could in fact be due to the internal decoders/components of the BD10A and that they may be inferior to other products...but that's all I have to work with at the moment, and I am brutally honest about that in each review.

Now, that statement has been beaten down and made fun of by a handful of members here, claiming my gear is "cheap, unreliable and unworthy of a review system," but I have been assured by moderation staff -- after reporting these members for what I felt was a personal lashing toward me and my income bracket -- that as long as I am running HDMI (1.3a) gear and have an HDTV and BD player in the mix, the equipment is stable enough for review purposes.

The issue continues to be in the internal decoding of TrueHD soundtracks (transferred to multichannel LPCM) with this BD10A player and how the speaker setup menu handles or doesn't handle the treatment of those signals. Can't we just stick to that without resorting to "You should know this stuff" and "I think you're talking to the wrong people" and that "you laugh when you read reviews that claim the reviewer can hear differences in bitstreaming" and so on?

BIslander · 05-18-2009, 11:51 PM

Peter, the basic concepts of home theater audio really are pretty simple. As a professional reviewer, I believe you have a responsibility to your readers to understand those concepts. You'd also gain considerable peace of mind when it comes to putting together your own system.

I apologize if I offended.

daleb · 05-19-2009, 09:43 AM

Here's an opportunity for both of you to jump on me together:

It would seem to me any differences perceived in Audio Quality would be mainly attributable to the analog design/circuitry (including DACs) used in the receiver (or pre pro) and/or the player.

BIslander · 05-19-2009, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daleb

Here's an opportunity for both of you to jump on me together:

It would seem to me any differences perceived in Audio Quality would be mainly attributable to the analog design/circuitry (including DACs) used in the receiver (or pre pro) and/or the player.

Yes, that would certainly be the case when comparing the analog output of the player with the analog output of the receiver.

But, that's not at all what we were discussing. I was trying to reassure Mr. Marlowe that the speaker setups in the players he is considering have nothing to do with the HDMI outputs.

In his last post, Mr. Marlowe moved off into a comparison of player vs. receiver decoding, which is a whole different matter than the original discussion. It is also not the same comparison you are making. He's talking about player vs. receiver decoding where HDMI is used for transmission. In that case, the player does no processing and its DACs are not involved.

PFC5 · 05-19-2009, 11:36 AM

Peter:

The easiest way to understand this is to know that the DD/DTS, etc soundtracks start off as PCM, and get encoded (like zipping a computer file) to be smaller when encoded as DD/DTS/DTS-HD MA/DtHD. All a decoder does is unzip the file/soundtrack back to it's original state with the lossless soundtracks. With the lossy encoded soundtracks they throw some info away, but they all originated as PCM.

This is WHY BIslander stated that bitstreaming between players should not be different except that some players may send a higher voltage signal which would make it louder (but not better) and to most, louder sounds "better".

Some receivers will do more post processing of certain signals which may alter the sound that some may think sounds better. I do the least post processing with my receivers to get it as close as possible to what the Director intended myself and only apply matrixing to use the rear surrounds.

Summary:
Soundtracks are PCM before being encoded (zipped) for DTS-HD MA or DtHD to be unzipped back to the original file type which IS PCM. For the lossy encodes like DD/DTS/DD+/DTS-HD HR they are zipped with some data thrown away (forever), and are also turned back to their original file type of PCM, but with less data since some was thrown away to make the file size smaller (like a JPG file does) to fit the storage space.

Does that explain it better?

Stew4HD · 05-19-2009, 12:43 PM

Peter,

The Oppo BDP-83 is a great player and made to handle nearly every possible connection type as well as flexible enough to play the HD (enhanced) audio formats for less money than the Denons and Pioneer Elites. It's built like a tank, loads up faster than the panny BD35 I had... whatcha waiting for??

daleb · 05-19-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIslander

In his last post, Mr. Marlowe moved off into a comparison of player vs. receiver decoding, which is a whole different matter than the original discussion. It is also not the same comparison you are making. He's talking about player vs. receiver decoding where HDMI is used for transmission. In that case, the player does no processing and its DACs are not involved.

I understand that, which is why I italicized mainly in my post. Maybe 'primarily' would be more appropriate.

daleb · 05-19-2009, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stew4HD

Peter,

The Oppo BDP-83 is a great player and made to handle nearly every possible connection type as well as flexible enough to play the HD (enhanced) audio formats for less money than the Denons and Pioneer Elites. It's built like a tank, loads up faster than the panny BD35 I had... whatcha waiting for??

It does kind of come down to to that, does it not?
Especially with value being a big part of the formula too.

PFC5 · 05-19-2009, 01:03 PM

I would love my BD players to load faster, but whether I would pay twice the money for it is the question.

No doubt I would also love the SACD/DVD-A playback as well and could retire a player if I did buy the Oppo, but I am cheap right now and trying to cut expenses, so I am not jumping anytime soon myself.

I wonder if the Oppo allows you to continue a movie (resume feature) despite it not being encoded to do that on the disc. It seems my PS3 can do this so can the Oppo do this also?

Stew4HD · 05-19-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daleb

It does kind of come down to to that, does it not?
Especially with value being a big part of the formula too.

Indeed. I looked at the "big picture" before pulling the trigger on this player.

PFC,

I have not tried that but will see if it will resume.. wouldn't that be cool?

PFC5 · 05-19-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stew4HD

Indeed. I looked at the "big picture" before pulling the trigger on this player.

PFC,

I have not tried that but will see if it will resume.. wouldn't that be cool?

Thanks!

It would be very cool as I always hear how people are complaining about the resume feature not working with BD movies. It would just be one more thing favoring the Oppo, and also provide hope that future SAL BD players might be able to do this also.

Can you make sure such movie CANNOT resume with the BD35 and any other BD players you have if it does resume with the Oppo?

Thanks again!

rubystone1111 · 05-19-2009, 01:26 PM

its more about how the movie is authored on bluray then the player.. some movies with the java are the ones that cann't resume.
you will get that with all the players.
Jacob

daleb · 05-19-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Thanks!

It would be very cool as I always hear how people are complaining about the resume feature not working with BD movies. It would just be one more thing favoring the Oppo, and also provide hope that future SAL BD players might be able to do this also.

Can you make sure such movie CANNOT resume with the BD35 and any other BD players you have if it does resume with the Oppo?

Thanks again!

It can not bypass BD disks encoded (Java) to do otherwise, but on all other disks it is the default of the player, the first time you press 'STOP', to go into a 'ready to resume' mode.
Thank Sony for that.. thank them again if they ever plan to change it.

To repeat myself, if you don't need SACD/DVD-A playback, superior 2ch analog ouput, or even 7.1 analog out, you don't 'need' this player.

Chris Gerhard · 05-19-2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

I would love my BD players to load faster, but whether I would pay twice the money for it is the question.

No doubt I would also love the SACD/DVD-A playback as well and could retire a player if I did buy the Oppo, but I am cheap right now and trying to cut expenses, so I am not jumping anytime soon myself.

I wonder if the Oppo allows you to continue a movie (resume feature) despite it not being encoded to do that on the disc. It seems my PS3 can do this so can the Oppo do this also?

The Oppo BDP-83 is no different than the other players, including the PS3, automatic resume without bookmark works with Blu-ray discs using the HDMV navigation structure but can't resume discs using the BD-J navigation structure.

Chris

Citico · 05-19-2009, 05:21 PM

Finally arrived!!This is my first OPPO . I have had a lot of components come through my HT but never have I had a product delivered in such professional packaging. That in itself tells me I am in for a special treat when I get the player installed tomorrow. My hat is off to the marketing team. Replacing a Samsung BD-Up5000.

05-19-2009, 09:43 AM	#198
daleb High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Clovis, CA Posts: 7,657	Here's an opportunity for both of you to jump on me together: It would seem to me any differences perceived in Audio Quality would be mainly attributable to the analog design/circuitry (including DACs) used in the receiver (or pre pro) and/or the player. __________________ Samsung PN50A650 plasma, Arcam AVR350, Dali Ikon6 (Vokal2&OnWalls), Outlaw Audio LFM-1EX sub, Anti-Mode 8033B, Oppo Digital BDP-83SE, Roku Digital, Furman Elite power conditioner

05-19-2009, 11:36 AM	#200
PFC5 Former Super Moderator - RIP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 38,295	Peter: The easiest way to understand this is to know that the DD/DTS, etc soundtracks start off as PCM, and get encoded (like zipping a computer file) to be smaller when encoded as DD/DTS/DTS-HD MA/DtHD. All a decoder does is unzip the file/soundtrack back to it's original state with the lossless soundtracks. With the lossy encoded soundtracks they throw some info away, but they all originated as PCM. This is WHY BIslander stated that bitstreaming between players should not be different except that some players may send a higher voltage signal which would make it louder (but not better) and to most, louder sounds "better". Some receivers will do more post processing of certain signals which may alter the sound that some may think sounds better. I do the least post processing with my receivers to get it as close as possible to what the Director intended myself and only apply matrixing to use the rear surrounds. Summary: Soundtracks are PCM before being encoded (zipped) for DTS-HD MA or DtHD to be unzipped back to the original file type which IS PCM. For the lossy encodes like DD/DTS/DD+/DTS-HD HR they are zipped with some data thrown away (forever), and are also turned back to their original file type of PCM, but with less data since some was thrown away to make the file size smaller (like a JPG file does) to fit the storage space. Does that explain it better? __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

05-19-2009, 12:43 PM	#201
Stew4HD SD HURTS MY EYES Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Tejas Baby Posts: 9,989	Peter, The Oppo BDP-83 is a great player and made to handle nearly every possible connection type as well as flexible enough to play the HD (enhanced) audio formats for less money than the Denons and Pioneer Elites. It's built like a tank, loads up faster than the panny BD35 I had... whatcha waiting for?? __________________ ___________________________________ For PFC5 I miss ya, buddy WB L2W! Living Room: JVC DLA-RS40 3D projector Da-Lite wall mounted screen 110" diag. DirecTV DVR Sony PlayStation 3 60GB (first gen) Toshiba HD-XA2 HD DVD Denon AVR-A100 Magnepan MMGW L/R Magnepan MMGC center Aperion 5DB surrounds Aperion 10D sub Oppo BDP-83SE Panny DMP-BDT100 XBOX 360 (first gen) HTPC WII special thanks to Robert at valueelectronics.com, you are great to work with!

05-19-2009, 01:03 PM	#204
PFC5 Former Super Moderator - RIP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 38,295	I would love my BD players to load faster, but whether I would pay twice the money for it is the question. No doubt I would also love the SACD/DVD-A playback as well and could retire a player if I did buy the Oppo, but I am cheap right now and trying to cut expenses, so I am not jumping anytime soon myself. I wonder if the Oppo allows you to continue a movie (resume feature) despite it not being encoded to do that on the disc. It seems my PS3 can do this so can the Oppo do this also? __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

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05-18-2009, 11:51 PM	#197
BIslander Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Bainbridge Island, WA Posts: 1,502	Peter, the basic concepts of home theater audio really are pretty simple. As a professional reviewer, I believe you have a responsibility to your readers to understand those concepts. You'd also gain considerable peace of mind when it comes to putting together your own system. I apologize if I offended.

05-19-2009, 01:26 PM	#207
rubystone1111 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 398	its more about how the movie is authored on bluray then the player.. some movies with the java are the ones that cann't resume. you will get that with all the players. Jacob

05-19-2009, 05:21 PM	#210
Citico How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 18	Finally arrived!!This is my first OPPO . I have had a lot of components come through my HT but never have I had a product delivered in such professional packaging. That in itself tells me I am in for a special treat when I get the player installed tomorrow. My hat is off to the marketing team. Replacing a Samsung BD-Up5000.