Are PCM Tracks Being Processed Correctly Based On This Setup?

Peter Marlowe · 01-03-2009, 08:33 PM

PFC and other moderating parties/members, if this needs to be moved to a different section of the forum based on relevancy elements, etc. please do so -- I was thinking of placing it in the Lounge area, so if that would be more appropriate, please feel free to move it. Thank you.

As my installer and I prepare to pick apart my system to install a new Blu player soon, and begin to look at possible reasons for the findings I am gathering when doing my reviews and I come across a title with TrueHD or uncompressed PCM audio, it occurred to me I should discuss this scenario with members of the board for general inquiry and to possibly share some worthwhile information that may be of help to others just beginning with questions here.

My first-generation Panasonic DMP-BD10AK does not bitstream Dolby TrueHD, nor does it support, at all, DTS Master Audio. It does INTERNALLY DECODE TrueHD and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio to multichannel PCM, as well as send "uncompressed" PCM audio tracks straight through. Based on this, my system needs have been, shall we say, unique...

First of all, let me explain my setup: The player is running just ONE HDMI 1.3 cable for ALL audio and video from the rear HDMI A/V port...and I use this player for DVD upconversion playback as well. The HDMI OUT from the player is going to an Onkyo TX-SR605B's HDMI IN (port 1). A second HDMI cable runs from the Onkyo's HDMI OUT to my Sony rear projection HDTV's HDMI IN (Video 6). That's it -- no other connections are being made between components...no analog/component video or digital coax/optical audio.

Now, because of the limitations of my player's audio processing, I have the AUDIO section of the Panasonic's setup menu prepared like this:

Dynamic Range Compression: Off
BD Function Sound: Off
PCM Down Conversion: Off
Dolby Digital: Bitstream
Dolby Digital Plus/TrueHD: PCM
DTS: Bitstream
DTS-HD: Bitstream

Let me explain why this was set up the way it was....Dolby Digital and DTS can be bitstreamed, so I leave them as bitstreamed so my receiver handles the decoding. Dolby TrueHD gets decoded INTERNALLY by the player, so I leave this as PCM. With DTS-HD, the reason this is set to "Bitstream" is because when I play Blu-rays with Master Audio soundtracks, this player -- which doesn't support Master Audio at all -- uses the "DTS-HD" audio section to "sense" or "detect" when Master Audio tracks are coming in, and then sends only the DTS "core" signal of a MA track to the receiver; so, I leave this on Bitstream.

Under the player's CONNECTION setup tab of the menu, there is an area where you can set the speaker levels and distances, like you would in a receiver, but I was under the assumption that this was ONLY for analog connections from the player -- I have this section set to "Multi-Channel" which then opens up a screen with the various speaker graphics for you to set. Now keep in mind that I am using ONLY one HDMI cable going from the player to my receiver, so EVERYTHING -- Blu-ray and DVD video plus all audio streams -- is going over this one cable...a DIGITAL cable (HDMI). I have been told to leave all the speakers on the Panasonic's Multi-Channel menu to LARGE and all values to ZERO (0dB) so that way all PCM audio tracks can pass to my receiver untouched and bass management can be handled at the receiver, where it really should be. Is this true? I am running JUST HDMI from this player, so decoded TrueHD tracks and uncompressed PCM tracks are passing over this HDMI cable to the receiver -- no analog cables are being used -- so are PCM tracks being processed or handled correctly based on this setup? Can multichannel PCM be passed over HDMI 1.3a?

If this is so, does anything need to be adjusted at the player's "Multi-Channel" setup menu to make sure PCM tracks are being passed correctly out of the player? Should all speakers be set to LARGE on the player and levels set to ZERO so they are handled by the receiver correctly? Like I said, I was concerned because all I keep hearing is how that setup menu on the Panasonic was designed for when ANALOG connections are made on the back of the player -- but I'm running DIGITAL through one HDMI connection; does this still apply to PCM over HDMI?

**PFC5** · 01-04-2009, 12:01 AM

Those speaker adjustment settings are correct being set to large and 0DBs.

The reason those menu options are available is because it gives you the option to let the player handle bass mgmt instead of the receiver. With an HDMI connection they are still relevant BECAUSE the player is decoding DtHD/DD+, but it is only applicable with the soundtracks set to be decoded by the player, which in this current setting you are using is DtD/DD+.

You should try setting the DTS HD setting to PCM and listen to it on some BD discs that have DTS-HD MA and decide with your ears which might sound better. Other than "possibly" that, I think it is already set correctly.

You might want to get a SPL (Sound Pressure Level) meter to calibrate the audio for each source to set the speaker levels accurately for your room acoustics.

Peter Marlowe · 01-04-2009, 09:38 PM

Thank You PFC For The Response,

Let me reply to each element of these statements:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Those speaker adjustment settings are correct being set to large and 0DBs.

Okay; so I will leave them as-is. I was just under the assumption this menu was ONLY for ANALOG connections, not digital, as I am connected only via HDMI...but you address this below; may I ask, though, why should the speaker settings be left to large with zero on the balances, etc? Is this so the soundtracks pass "unmolested" to the receiver, so they can be processed there?

Quote:

The reason those menu options are available is because it gives you the option to let the player handle bass mgmt instead of the receiver.

So by leaving them to LARGE and ZERO values, this bypasses the player and allows the RECEIVER to do it?

Quote:

With an HDMI connection they are still relevant BECAUSE the player is decoding DtHD/DD+, but it is only applicable with the soundtracks set to be decoded by the player, which in this current setting you are using is DtD/DD+.

Right -- I got this. The only codecs I have set to be decoded by the player are the TrueHD/Dolby Digital Plus; these are set to PCM.

But here is another question I have: Am I hearing the actual decoded TrueHD soundtracks being that I am passing them over HDMI as PCM? Can multichannel PCM pass over HDMI -- instead of analog -- if I'm running 1.3a-capable cables?

Quote:

You should try setting the DTS HD setting to PCM and listen to it on some BD discs that have DTS-HD MA and decide with your ears which might sound better. Other than "possibly" that, I think it is already set correctly.

Well, I know that the player is ONLY extracting the CORE DTS stream from the Master Audio soundtracks, and these sound best BITSTREAMED to my ears, so I just leave DTS-HD to BITSTREAM. BUT, if I ever come across a Blu-ray that has true DTS-HD HR audio, I will switch this to PCM on the player so I can hear the actual decoding of these tracks; so far, I have none in my collection that have DTS-HD HR.

Quote:

You might want to get a SPL (Sound Pressure Level) meter to calibrate the audio for each source to set the speaker levels accurately for your room acoustics.

Of course, my system is 100 percent calibrated -- hence, how I can do my reviews! But it has been calibrated and verified by myself and a professional installer I use.

Let me summarize this information to make sure I got it correct; and thank you again for all your assistance with this!

- I keep Dolby TrueHD on "PCM" audio output on my player so the tracks can be decoded and sent to the receiver as multichannel PCM

- I keep all speaker level settings IN THE PLAYER at LARGE and ZERO

Doing this, are you SURE the decoded TrueHD tracks will pass correctly to the receiver to be heard/processed? Is this all that needs to be done?

Peter Marlowe · 01-05-2009, 06:44 PM

Pfc?

Peter Marlowe · 01-05-2009, 08:43 PM

PFC,

Did you get a chance to read or reply to my questions in this thread? Looking forward to hearing what you have to say.

Thanks!

**PFC5** · 01-06-2009, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Marlowe

Thank You PFC For The Response,

Let me reply to each element of these statements:

Okay; so I will leave them as-is. I was just under the assumption this menu was ONLY for ANALOG connections, not digital, as I am connected only via HDMI...but you address this below; may I ask, though, why should the speaker settings be left to large with zero on the balances, etc? Is this so the soundtracks pass "unmolested" to the receiver, so they can be processed there?

So by leaving them to LARGE and ZERO values, this bypasses the player and allows the RECEIVER to do it?

Right -- I got this. The only codecs I have set to be decoded by the player are the TrueHD/Dolby Digital Plus; these are set to PCM.

But here is another question I have: Am I hearing the actual decoded TrueHD soundtracks being that I am passing them over HDMI as PCM? Can multichannel PCM pass over HDMI -- instead of analog -- if I'm running 1.3a-capable cables?

Well, I know that the player is ONLY extracting the CORE DTS stream from the Master Audio soundtracks, and these sound best BITSTREAMED to my ears, so I just leave DTS-HD to BITSTREAM. BUT, if I ever come across a Blu-ray that has true DTS-HD HR audio, I will switch this to PCM on the player so I can hear the actual decoding of these tracks; so far, I have none in my collection that have DTS-HD HR.

Of course, my system is 100 percent calibrated -- hence, how I can do my reviews! But it has been calibrated and verified by myself and a professional installer I use.

Let me summarize this information to make sure I got it correct; and thank you again for all your assistance with this!

- I keep Dolby TrueHD on "PCM" audio output on my player so the tracks can be decoded and sent to the receiver as multichannel PCM

- I keep all speaker level settings IN THE PLAYER at LARGE and ZERO

Doing this, are you SURE the decoded TrueHD tracks will pass correctly to the receiver to be heard/processed? Is this all that needs to be done?

Yes. By setting the player to send PCM you ARE instructing the player to do the decoding over HDMI regardless of what HDMI receiver you have.

You have it set up properly for the player/receiver that you have as it is.

Peter Marlowe · 01-06-2009, 03:32 PM

Thank you for getting back to me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Yes. By setting the player to send PCM you ARE instructing the player to do the decoding over HDMI regardless of what HDMI receiver you have.

So, MULTICHANNEL PCM, decoded TrueHD etc., can pass over ANALOG cables AND HDMI as well -- and it doesn't matter if the cable/receiver is HDMI 1.3a-capable? Let me see if I have this straight: the 1.3a standard is really for sending BITSTREAMED high resolution audio streams like TrueHD and Master Audio, yes? The DECODED multichannel PCM streams can pass over any form of HDMI to any HDMI-equipped receiver...correct?

Quote:

You have it set up properly for the player/receiver that you have as it is.

Thank you for the reassurances; just wanted to go a bit deeper:

How do I know the multichannel decoded TrueHD tracks from the player are being sent correctly based on that setup menu under the Panasonic's Multi Channel speaker settings? In other words, you instructed me to keep all speakers at LARGE settings in that menu and keep all values at ZERO, correct, which I have done? If so, what makes those settings correct for sending the decoded TrueHD tracks over multichannel PCM to the receiver? See what I'm asking? Is it because by leaving these settings to LARGE on the speaker sizes, it's telling the player to pass the signals unaltered to the receiver, so bass management, etc. can be handled there?

Another inquiry: If, when playing decoded multichannel TrueHD PCM tracks from this player with the speakers set to LARGE at the player, does the receiver then apply all ITS settings I have made to calibration levels, distances, etc.? I know you said those speaker level settings at the player have to do with analog connections mainly, but they apply here because I'm having the TrueHD decoded internally to PCM...so would my receiver simply treat the incoming PCM signals like it would bitstreamed signals from the player, that is, applying internal distances, calibration values, etc.?

Thanks for all your continued assistance.

**PFC5** · 01-07-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Marlowe

Thank you for getting back to me...

So, MULTICHANNEL PCM, decoded TrueHD etc., can pass over ANALOG cables AND HDMI as well -- and it doesn't matter if the cable/receiver is HDMI 1.3a-capable? Let me see if I have this straight: the 1.3a standard is really for sending BITSTREAMED high resolution audio streams like TrueHD and Master Audio, yes? The DECODED multichannel PCM streams can pass over any form of HDMI to any HDMI-equipped receiver...correct?

Correct!

Quote:

Thank you for the reassurances; just wanted to go a bit deeper:

How do I know the multichannel decoded TrueHD tracks from the player are being sent correctly based on that setup menu under the Panasonic's Multi Channel speaker settings? In other words, you instructed me to keep all speakers at LARGE settings in that menu and keep all values at ZERO, correct, which I have done? If so, what makes those settings correct for sending the decoded TrueHD tracks over multichannel PCM to the receiver? See what I'm asking? Is it because by leaving these settings to LARGE on the speaker sizes, it's telling the player to pass the signals unaltered to the receiver, so bass management, etc. can be handled there?

Yes!

Quote:

Another inquiry: If, when playing decoded multichannel TrueHD PCM tracks from this player with the speakers set to LARGE at the player, does the receiver then apply all ITS settings I have made to calibration levels, distances, etc.? I know you said those speaker level settings at the player have to do with analog connections mainly, but they apply here because I'm having the TrueHD decoded internally to PCM...so would my receiver simply treat the incoming PCM signals like it would bitstreamed signals from the player, that is, applying internal distances, calibration values, etc.?

Thanks for all your continued assistance.

Yes. It works just like the PCM stream from a CD that allows the signal to be unmolested and the receiver applies the Bass mgmt, sound delays for various speaker distances, etc. just like it does for playing CDs in it, and also allows it to matrix rear surrounds on a 7.1 speaker setup even though the soundtrack might only be 5.1 because PCM IS digital still. Your receiver still does the digital>analog conversion that gets sent to the amp then to the speakers.

Peter Marlowe · 01-08-2009, 12:35 AM

Thanks very much again, PFC...

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Correct!

Yes!

Yes. It works just like the PCM stream from a CD that allows the signal to be unmolested and the receiver applies the Bass mgmt, sound delays for various speaker distances, etc. just like it does for playing CDs in it, and also allows it to matrix rear surrounds on a 7.1 speaker setup even though the soundtrack might only be 5.1 because PCM IS digital still. Your receiver still does the digital>analog conversion that gets sent to the amp then to the speakers.

You know what the biggest problem with this BD10A is? The manual -- please excuse my language and for lack of a better term -- is a piece of dog shit; nothing is explained right or in depth especially when it comes to the audio section of this player's capabilities.

I'll go back to that in a bit...

I just want to be sure everything should definitely be set to those LARGE speaker sizes and ZERO across the board for values, as I am wondering what would happen if any of those sizes or values should be changed; WHY does this affect the way the multichannel PCM tracks are passed to the receiver? Why do they need to be set to LARGE in order to be passed right? The manual goes into NONE of this...

Do you want to know how confusing this gets? Want to know why so many Panasonic BD10A owners (and subsequent models) are frustrated and pissed off at these manuals? The manual actually states, under the instructions for setting the "MULTI-CHANNEL" speaker menu, that if the BD10A is connected to equipment that CAN do speaker adjustments with levels, calibrations, distances, etc. then this should be set to 2-CHANNEL...if the player is connected, it says, to equipment like receivers that CANNOT do levels, calibration settings, etc. then this needs to be set to MULTI-CHANNEL...but this is totally wrong; according to online discussion forums that have agreed upon it, it has been accepted that this should be left on MULTI-CHANNEL when the player is connected to a system running THREE OR MORE SPEAKERS/CHANNELS, and has nothing to do with where levels are set; furthermore, the setting should be on 2 CHANNEL if the player is connected to a system with only TWO SPEAKERS...

If I listened to the manual for this player, the logic would be to set the SPEAKER menu, in the connection tab, to "2-CHANNEL" because I AM connected to a receiver that calibrates, does distances, etc.; I mean, which one doesn't?

01-03-2009, 08:33 PM	#1
Peter Marlowe Blu-ray Reviewer Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,257	Are PCM Tracks Being Processed Correctly Based On This Setup? PFC and other moderating parties/members, if this needs to be moved to a different section of the forum based on relevancy elements, etc. please do so -- I was thinking of placing it in the Lounge area, so if that would be more appropriate, please feel free to move it. Thank you. As my installer and I prepare to pick apart my system to install a new Blu player soon, and begin to look at possible reasons for the findings I am gathering when doing my reviews and I come across a title with TrueHD or uncompressed PCM audio, it occurred to me I should discuss this scenario with members of the board for general inquiry and to possibly share some worthwhile information that may be of help to others just beginning with questions here. My first-generation Panasonic DMP-BD10AK does not bitstream Dolby TrueHD, nor does it support, at all, DTS Master Audio. It does INTERNALLY DECODE TrueHD and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio to multichannel PCM, as well as send "uncompressed" PCM audio tracks straight through. Based on this, my system needs have been, shall we say, unique... First of all, let me explain my setup: The player is running just ONE HDMI 1.3 cable for ALL audio and video from the rear HDMI A/V port...and I use this player for DVD upconversion playback as well. The HDMI OUT from the player is going to an Onkyo TX-SR605B's HDMI IN (port 1). A second HDMI cable runs from the Onkyo's HDMI OUT to my Sony rear projection HDTV's HDMI IN (Video 6). That's it -- no other connections are being made between components...no analog/component video or digital coax/optical audio. Now, because of the limitations of my player's audio processing, I have the AUDIO section of the Panasonic's setup menu prepared like this: Dynamic Range Compression: Off BD Function Sound: Off PCM Down Conversion: Off Dolby Digital: Bitstream Dolby Digital Plus/TrueHD: PCM DTS: Bitstream DTS-HD: Bitstream Let me explain why this was set up the way it was....Dolby Digital and DTS can be bitstreamed, so I leave them as bitstreamed so my receiver handles the decoding. Dolby TrueHD gets decoded INTERNALLY by the player, so I leave this as PCM. With DTS-HD, the reason this is set to "Bitstream" is because when I play Blu-rays with Master Audio soundtracks, this player -- which doesn't support Master Audio at all -- uses the "DTS-HD" audio section to "sense" or "detect" when Master Audio tracks are coming in, and then sends only the DTS "core" signal of a MA track to the receiver; so, I leave this on Bitstream. Under the player's CONNECTION setup tab of the menu, there is an area where you can set the speaker levels and distances, like you would in a receiver, but I was under the assumption that this was ONLY for analog connections from the player -- I have this section set to "Multi-Channel" which then opens up a screen with the various speaker graphics for you to set. Now keep in mind that I am using ONLY one HDMI cable going from the player to my receiver, so EVERYTHING -- Blu-ray and DVD video plus all audio streams -- is going over this one cable...a DIGITAL cable (HDMI). I have been told to leave all the speakers on the Panasonic's Multi-Channel menu to LARGE and all values to ZERO (0dB) so that way all PCM audio tracks can pass to my receiver untouched and bass management can be handled at the receiver, where it really should be. Is this true? I am running JUST HDMI from this player, so decoded TrueHD tracks and uncompressed PCM tracks are passing over this HDMI cable to the receiver -- no analog cables are being used -- so are PCM tracks being processed or handled correctly based on this setup? Can multichannel PCM be passed over HDMI 1.3a? If this is so, does anything need to be adjusted at the player's "Multi-Channel" setup menu to make sure PCM tracks are being passed correctly out of the player? Should all speakers be set to LARGE on the player and levels set to ZERO so they are handled by the receiver correctly? Like I said, I was concerned because all I keep hearing is how that setup menu on the Panasonic was designed for when ANALOG connections are made on the back of the player -- but I'm running DIGITAL through one HDMI connection; does this still apply to PCM over HDMI? __________________ ONKYO TX-SR605B HDMI 1.3a; Onboard Dolby Digital Plus/TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio Panasonic DMP-BD10A SONY 1080p KDS-50A2020 SXRD Mains: polkaudio R20 Center: polkaudio CSi30 Surrounds: polkaudio R15 Sub: polkaudio PSW10 marantz CC4001 TASCAM CD-RW900SL PROFESSIONAL Technics SL-QD33 (due for replacement) APC SurgeArrest System INTERCONNECTS & SPEAKER CABLING BY MONSTER Last Review:

01-04-2009, 12:01 AM	#2
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,389	Those speaker adjustment settings are correct being set to large and 0DBs. The reason those menu options are available is because it gives you the option to let the player handle bass mgmt instead of the receiver. With an HDMI connection they are still relevant BECAUSE the player is decoding DtHD/DD+, but it is only applicable with the soundtracks set to be decoded by the player, which in this current setting you are using is DtD/DD+. You should try setting the DTS HD setting to PCM and listen to it on some BD discs that have DTS-HD MA and decide with your ears which might sound better. Other than "possibly" that, I think it is already set correctly. You might want to get a SPL (Sound Pressure Level) meter to calibrate the audio for each source to set the speaker levels accurately for your room acoustics. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

01-05-2009, 06:44 PM	#4
Peter Marlowe Blu-ray Reviewer Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,257	Pfc? __________________ ONKYO TX-SR605B HDMI 1.3a; Onboard Dolby Digital Plus/TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio Panasonic DMP-BD10A SONY 1080p KDS-50A2020 SXRD Mains: polkaudio R20 Center: polkaudio CSi30 Surrounds: polkaudio R15 Sub: polkaudio PSW10 marantz CC4001 TASCAM CD-RW900SL PROFESSIONAL Technics SL-QD33 (due for replacement) APC SurgeArrest System INTERCONNECTS & SPEAKER CABLING BY MONSTER Last Review:

01-05-2009, 08:43 PM	#5
Peter Marlowe Blu-ray Reviewer Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,257	PFC, Did you get a chance to read or reply to my questions in this thread? Looking forward to hearing what you have to say. Thanks! __________________ ONKYO TX-SR605B HDMI 1.3a; Onboard Dolby Digital Plus/TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio Panasonic DMP-BD10A SONY 1080p KDS-50A2020 SXRD Mains: polkaudio R20 Center: polkaudio CSi30 Surrounds: polkaudio R15 Sub: polkaudio PSW10 marantz CC4001 TASCAM CD-RW900SL PROFESSIONAL Technics SL-QD33 (due for replacement) APC SurgeArrest System INTERCONNECTS & SPEAKER CABLING BY MONSTER Last Review:

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