Blu-ray vs. HD DVD and DVD

Lee Stewart · 03-17-2007, 06:02 PM

OH . . .

And Sony looking foolish? . . . .seen that before . . . many times in the past.

**PFC5** · 03-17-2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Don't lose focus on that prize. Too valuable.

Sony has a VERY good marketing dept. Within 1 year they have managed to convince the public that anything less than TRUE HD (1080P) is not good.

They have not convinced everyone. They just utilized the companies like BB/CC that want to resell another HDTV to the public masses. The stores are just trying to sell something. Sure that does benefit Sony, but it benefits everyone including HD DVD companies.

Quote:

FACT: easier and cheaper for LCD to go 1080P than PDP.

Sony saw an opportunity to convince the public, and at the same time, promote what Sony has to sell (LCD). . . at a far lower price than it's competition (PDP).

See my reply above.

How do we tell this has been successful?

Quote:

1. We see posters here at HDF, all the time use those words "TRUE HD."

Many of those posters are US regulars describing the difference between upscalers and true HD players. Sure many are asking about a marketing term, but so what?

Quote:

2. First Victim - Phillips - will only sell PDP in USA and Australia.

Phillips is not a very good plasma maker and they tried to use the "Ambient Lighting" to set it apart at a higher price compared to better plasma models by competitors.

Quote:

3. Second Victum - PDP manufacturers in general. Sales were up between 100% and 125%

. . . profits were up 2%

Like I said Sony IS crazy . . . crazy like a fox!

So what? Sales go up and Net profit margins are only up slightly. This is the nature of the electronics game. Look at computer companies. It is the same thing. I have posted many times that I see the HDTV, etc market running like the computer industry model ran 10 years ago. I am not surprised about PM not growing anywhere near equal with increased sales. What are the stats/margins for LCD HDTV panels for the same period? You need to keep it in perspective. If the LCD panels are generating much more profit margins you think this is GOOD for us the consumer?

LCD panels do not look as good as plasmas IMO when objects are moving on the screen. Like it or not, we do not watch still pictures with our HDTVs, but watch movies that have moving pictures.

Not only that, but have you compared the prices of LCD panels that are 37" or larger to comparable size plasma displays? 27" or above? Plasma is STILL cheaper, and better IMO.

junehhan · 03-17-2007, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

I do not get it either other than Sony's ego is the size of the planet. That is the only thing I can think of as to WHY they think they will replace SD DVD with BD in 3 years. They should be trying to replace HD DVD within 3 years first.

What's sad is that up in the corporate executive meeting room, they are probably scratching their heads over why so many people who aren't fanboys hate them so much. Instead of a buisness plan centered around what the consumer wants, they have decided that they want to dictate to us consumers what we should and shouldn't want. That type of corporate attitude is BS in my opinion.

Lee Stewart · 03-17-2007, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

They have not convinced everyone. They just utilized the companies like BB/CC that want to resell another HDTV to the public masses. The stores are just trying to sell something. Sure that does benefit Sony, but it benefits everyone including HD DVD companies.

They convinced MANY a potential 50" Plasma buyer that 1366x768 isn't enough, that you need 1920x1080. Sharp also jumped on this bandwagon because it was good for them. Though Plasma was the biggest seller for 2006, the 4th Qtr of 2006 saw LCD surpass PDP in total sales. Business, Retailing . . the world is not in black and white but shades of gray. Words like "everyone" denotes 100% and we both know THAT is impossible.

Quote:

How do we tell this has been successful?

Many of those posters are US regulars describing the difference between upscalers and true HD players. Sure many are asking about a marketing term, but so what?

Just look through about 10 or so threads in the Flat Panel Display cat. and seek out posts from members with less than 20 posts. When we say it we know we are talking about "native" HD Disc. See what they are saying when 1080P is mentioned or discussed.

Quote:

Phillips is not a very good plasma maker and they tried to use the "Ambient Lighting" to set it apart at a higher price compared to better plasma models by competitors.

And they are still selling them here because, we the USA represent 58% of the worlds consumption of HDTV. So from the pressure of sales, profits and success of LCD, they are dropping the other 40% to concentrate on LCD where thay have a marketshare pressence.

"Better Plasma Models" is being said by an savy, knowledgeable early adopter. Not Joe Average who is now buying HDTV.

Quote:

So what? Sales go up and Net profit margins are only up slightly. This is the nature of the electronics game. Look at computer companies. It is the same thing. I have posted many times that I see the HDTV, etc market running like the computer industry model ran 10 years ago. I am not surprised about PM not growing anywhere near equal with increased sales. What are the stats/margins for LCD HDTV panels for the same period? You need to keep it in perspective. If the LCD panels are generating much more profit margins you think this is GOOD for us the consumer?

What . . .CE's shouldn't make as much money as they can from the consumer? You think this is BAD? What kind of business are you running . . .a charity?

Quote:

LCD panels do not look as good as plasmas IMO when objects are moving on the screen. Like it or not, we do not watch still pictures with our HDTVs, but watch movies that have moving pictures.

Once again . . . IYO . . . a HT owner and early adopter. So if "everyone" thought like you - no sales of LCD - 100% PDP - well THAT didn't happen, the opposite did. Many more sales for LCD. it started in 4th Qtr 2006 and it has yet to stop. LCD is as we speak, outselling PDP.

many consumers are not as critical as you are or we would have 200,000 members with 50,000 active complaining about these "flaws" you keep talking about.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND - I am the happy owner of a Samsung 5053 PDP. But I am looking at what is happening in the "world of flat panel TV's" and I am looking at it from a Macro level as opposed to you who are looking at it froma Micro level. This is the reason why we are not getting our points across. We are on different levels.

NONE of this is "fanboy" posting. I don't own an LCD. My 5053 is 2.5 months old. Had a Profrssional Calibration done to it week after I bought it. Only set I would trade you for is the Pioneer 1080P

Quote:

Not only that, but have you compared the prices of LCD panels that are 37" or larger to comparable size plasma displays? 27" or above? Plasma is STILL cheaper, and better IMO.

Subjective opinion - we agree to disagree

**PFC5** · 03-18-2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

They convinced MANY a potential 50" Plasma buyer that 1366x768 isn't enough, that you need 1920x1080. Sharp also jumped on this bandwagon because it was good for them. Though Plasma was the biggest seller for 2006, the 4th Qtr of 2006 saw LCD surpass PDP in total sales. Business, Retailing . . the world is not in black and white but shades of gray. Words like "everyone" denotes 100% and we both know THAT is impossible.

Many people who are ignorant of the technology (which is everyone to some extent), might fall for it until they look at the actual PQ difference. Bruce had posted a link that lists what is the most important specs in order of importance for a display and resolution was FOURTH on the list.

Quote:

Just look through about 10 or so threads in the Flat Panel Display cat. and seek out posts from members with less than 20 posts. When we say it we know we are talking about "native" HD Disc. See what they are saying when 1080P is mentioned or discussed.

I hope you are correcting them when they say these types of things. That is what these forums are for, so we should all be providing correct info and stomping on erroneous info.

Quote:

And they are still selling them here because, we the USA represent 58% of the worlds consumption of HDTV. So from the pressure of sales, profits and success of LCD, they are dropping the other 40% to concentrate on LCD where thay have a marketshare pressence.

We do not have enough info to draw many conclusions about why Phillips did this. Even what they say publically could be a BS statement designed to mislead consumers OR competitors.

Quote:

"Better Plasma Models" is being said by an savy, knowledgeable early adopter. Not Joe Average who is now buying HDTV.

What . . .CE's shouldn't make as much money as they can from the consumer? You think this is BAD? What kind of business are you running . . .a charity?

Actually sometimes I DO run my business like a charity for certain clients.

Profits are good for companies, but excessive profits are not good for consumers. I don't think I need to explain this any further.

Quote:

Once again . . . IYO . . . a HT owner and early adopter. So if "everyone" thought like you - no sales of LCD - 100% PDP - well THAT didn't happen, the opposite did. Many more sales for LCD. it started in 4th Qtr 2006 and it has yet to stop. LCD is as we speak, outselling PDP.

How many of those LCD panels are for 37" or bigger versus much smaller LCDs that people buy because they cannot afford the big price jump to HDTV from SDTV as it is and want the cheapest upgrade cost? LCD is ONLY cheaper with the smaller screens (below 37").

Quote:

many consumers are not as critical as you are or we would have 200,000 members with 50,000 active complaining about these "flaws" you keep talking about.

You make it seem like I am making up these flaws with LCD. These are well documented flaws. It is true that some people notice these flaws and others have no clue at all they even exist. It doesn't mean that are not there.

Quote:

PLEASE UNDERSTAND - I am the happy owner of a Samsung 5053 PDP. But I am looking at what is happening in the "world of flat panel TV's" and I am looking at it from a Macro level as opposed to you who are looking at it froma Micro level. This is the reason why we are not getting our points across. We are on different levels.

NONE of this is "fanboy" posting. I don't own an LCD. My 5053 is 2.5 months old. Had a Profrssional Calibration done to it week after I bought it. Only set I would trade you for is the Pioneer 1080P

Subjective opinion - we agree to disagree

The funny thing is I own a 32" LCD for my bedroom and you own a 50" plasma, and we are arguing opposites of what we own.

It sounds more like you DO agree with me or else you WOULD HAVE bought a LCD instead of that Plasma. Why didn't you buy a LCD if YOU think they are better?

I am in my busy time of year so I do not have time to have philosophical arguments right now so lets just end this now please.

Lee Stewart · 03-18-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

The funny thing is I own a 32" LCD for my bedroom and you own a 50" plasma, and we are arguing opposites of what we own.

Wait a minute. . . . is this correct?

That's Funny! . . . Good ending!

HDDN · 05-24-2007, 05:28 AM

despite all their numbers... I run a site that's not biased and I honestly believe that to be the truth. It might be in Europe but not in North America. I think it's either HD DVD ahead actually or they're both neck and neck.

HDDN · 05-24-2007, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

OH . . .

And Sony looking foolish? . . . .seen that before . . . many times in the past.

nearly 30 years ago almost I think... right before I was born... I remember my dad had a beta player... that was soon replaced by a JVC VHS player. Then Yamaha Laserdisc player and so forth...

crazyal · 05-24-2007, 11:32 AM

To make this happen three key things need to happen:

1: Convice people with SD TV's that they don't want to keep buying the outdated format while pushing the fact that a BD player can be used on a SD TV.

2: Get cheap players to the market so the SD market will not have to invest much right off the bat to upgrade.

3: Slowly stop production of SD DVD's so everyone (not just the HD TV folks) will have to upgrade to a BD player.

Can they make this happen in 3 years, not without a major increase in the number/ speed of BD movies being released. Personally I think they could do it but will have to get a lot of cooperation from key movie studios. Let's face facts if they stopped selling SD DVDs tomorrow people will either start buying from a black market, sharing over the internet and buring their own, or buy into BD. What other choice is there, to just stop buying/ renting movies?

rmslives · 05-24-2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyal

To make this happen three key things need to happen:

1: Convice people with SD TV's that they don't want to keep buying the outdated format while pushing the fact that a BD player can be used on a SD TV.

This is exactly what some idiot on another forum tried to tell me when I argued that I liked the combo disc. I was saying that I have five tvs in my house, only one of which is HDTV. I would rather buy a combo than buy two versions of a movie, or try and buy four more high def players.

His response was that a BD disc would look better on a standard definition tv than an SDVD.

And while that may be true . . . he is f*!$*ng nuts if he thinks I am going to buy four BD players for standard definition tvs!

Moron!

Chris Gerhard · 05-24-2007, 01:54 PM

Blu-ray is never going to replace DVD. DVD will be king until both are replaced by something at the same time and HD DVD is likely going to exist as long as well, although its future is less certain in my opinion. It is just lunacy to think another shiny disc that offers nothing more than better audio and video can replace DVD. The market is interested in other things right now, the growth of MP3, downloading, IPod, etc. shows what consumers want. CD and DVD have a long remaining life and Blu-ray can't replace either. I only wish the HD disc survivor(s) could do much better in terms of software.

Chris

crazyal · 05-24-2007, 09:02 PM

I'm sorry if your backward thinking doesn't allow you to see that a BD or HD DVD player can have a standard coax output and go to Joe Average's TV. I never said it would look better just said it is the future. There will come a day that you wouldn't buy a SD DVD player just like you wouldn't buy VHS. The price of HD DVD or BD will drop so it will not make sense to buy anything but. If you don't believe that then try and stick your head in the sand about this, not just Sony but the movie industry as a whole is looking to increase profits, SD DVD's provide very little, it only makes sense that they are going to move towards where the profit is.

The_Omega_Man · 05-25-2007, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyal

I'm sorry if your backward thinking doesn't allow you to see that a BD or HD DVD player can have a standard coax output and go to Joe Average's TV. I never said it would look better just said it is the future. There will come a day that you wouldn't buy a SD DVD player just like you wouldn't buy VHS. The price of HD DVD or BD will drop so it will not make sense to buy anything but. If you don't believe that then try and stick your head in the sand about this, not just Sony but the movie industry as a whole is looking to increase profits, SD DVD's provide very little, it only makes sense that they are going to move towards where the profit is.

Crazyal-- Ok, so YOU need to go out and MAX out ALL of your Credit cards and get a 2nd and a 3rd mortgage on your home (presumption), and buy up as many BD Players as you can! (at current BD Player prices, i'm not sure just how many you may end up with!

) This action just might get the studios to stop producing standard DVDs (at least until they stop laughing at you!)

450 Million+ WW "Actual" DVD customers vs. barily 3 Million WW "Potential" BD customers!

Well it was a nice dream... It's time for you to wake up now... and don't for get your credit card... cuz you have some major buying to do!

crazyal · 05-25-2007, 06:19 AM

I wouldn't need to spend a cent of my own money if I had only one cent for every person who said "DVD is not going to replace my VHS". Hell even if the only reason for saying that was because the current price of DVD player was so much higher than VHS players at the time I still would be a rich man. SD DVD is on it's way out, I'm not saying SD TV is on it's way out just SD DVDs.

But you guys hold on to your SD DVD players for the next five or ten years just like you probably have four or five VHS players in your basement just in case DVD fails and you need them. For me as my DVD players need replacing, even if it's just a spare bedroom, I'll be picking up those cheap HD DVD and BD players that are going to be coming out next year.

The_Omega_Man · 05-25-2007, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyal

I wouldn't need to spend a cent of my own money if I had only one cent for every person who said "DVD is not going to replace my VHS". Hell even if the only reason for saying that was because the current price of DVD player was so much higher than VHS players at the time I still would be a rich man. SD DVD is on it's way out, I'm not saying SD TV is on it's way out just SD DVDs.

But you guys hold on to your SD DVD players for the next five or ten years just like you probably have four or five VHS players in your basement just in case DVD fails and you need them. For me as my DVD players need replacing, even if it's just a spare bedroom, I'll be picking up those cheap HD DVD and BD players that are going to be coming out next year.

Well I think you may have a better chance of SD-TV going the way of the DO-DO before DVDs. When the OLED (or other) TVs arrive on the scene, I predict that the LCDs of today will be wholesaled! Hell, My local Target store only has 1 SD TV for sale!

My Daughters $80 DVD player seems to suit her just fine and today she has access to 10 of 1000s of DVDs. I asked her if she wanted the new HiDef stuff, and she said "Nah, I don't watch it that often enough to change it." Now when she can replace that unit for $80 with a HiDef version, and she has access to 10 of 1000s of HiDef movies, she MIGHT, change it out!

This seems to be indicative of the next Gens mentality as they grow up in a disposable world.

BTW – I DO still have and watch S-VHS as a part of most of my HT setups! But I do NOT have any SD-TVs left in my home. Thank you very much!

05-24-2007, 05:28 AM	#22
HDDN HighDefDiscNews.com Join Date: May 2007 Location: Tennessee Age: 28 Posts: 28	Blu-ray isn't really winning despite all their numbers... I run a site that's not biased and I honestly believe that to be the truth. It might be in Europe but not in North America. I think it's either HD DVD ahead actually or they're both neck and neck. __________________ - Justin Sluss of *HighDefDiscNews.com* Our Latest Reviews: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire - Import (HD DVD) \| Letters from Iwo Jima (HD DVD) The Great Raid (Blu-ray) \| Flags of Our Fathers (HD DVD) \| The Prestige (Blu-ray) \| The Hitcher (HD DVD) \| The Complete Matrix Trilogy (HD DVD)

03-17-2007, 06:02 PM	#16
Lee Stewart Behold - the future! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Albuquerque, NM Age: 58 Posts: 25,193	OH . . . And Sony looking foolish? . . . .seen that before . . . many times in the past.

05-24-2007, 11:32 AM	#24
crazyal Smarter than the ave bear Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,314	To make this happen three key things need to happen: 1: Convice people with SD TV's that they don't want to keep buying the outdated format while pushing the fact that a BD player can be used on a SD TV. 2: Get cheap players to the market so the SD market will not have to invest much right off the bat to upgrade. 3: Slowly stop production of SD DVD's so everyone (not just the HD TV folks) will have to upgrade to a BD player. Can they make this happen in 3 years, not without a major increase in the number/ speed of BD movies being released. Personally I think they could do it but will have to get a lot of cooperation from key movie studios. Let's face facts if they stopped selling SD DVDs tomorrow people will either start buying from a black market, sharing over the internet and buring their own, or buy into BD. What other choice is there, to just stop buying/ renting movies?

05-24-2007, 01:54 PM	#26
Chris Gerhard High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 8,211	Blu-ray is never going to replace DVD. DVD will be king until both are replaced by something at the same time and HD DVD is likely going to exist as long as well, although its future is less certain in my opinion. It is just lunacy to think another shiny disc that offers nothing more than better audio and video can replace DVD. The market is interested in other things right now, the growth of MP3, downloading, IPod, etc. shows what consumers want. CD and DVD have a long remaining life and Blu-ray can't replace either. I only wish the HD disc survivor(s) could do much better in terms of software. Chris

05-24-2007, 09:02 PM	#27
crazyal Smarter than the ave bear Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,314	I'm sorry if your backward thinking doesn't allow you to see that a BD or HD DVD player can have a standard coax output and go to Joe Average's TV. I never said it would look better just said it is the future. There will come a day that you wouldn't buy a SD DVD player just like you wouldn't buy VHS. The price of HD DVD or BD will drop so it will not make sense to buy anything but. If you don't believe that then try and stick your head in the sand about this, not just Sony but the movie industry as a whole is looking to increase profits, SD DVD's provide very little, it only makes sense that they are going to move towards where the profit is.

05-25-2007, 06:19 AM	#29
crazyal Smarter than the ave bear Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,314	I wouldn't need to spend a cent of my own money if I had only one cent for every person who said "DVD is not going to replace my VHS". Hell even if the only reason for saying that was because the current price of DVD player was so much higher than VHS players at the time I still would be a rich man. SD DVD is on it's way out, I'm not saying SD TV is on it's way out just SD DVDs. But you guys hold on to your SD DVD players for the next five or ten years just like you probably have four or five VHS players in your basement just in case DVD fails and you need them. For me as my DVD players need replacing, even if it's just a spare bedroom, I'll be picking up those cheap HD DVD and BD players that are going to be coming out next year.