Blu-Ray undistinguishable from upconverted DVD?

El Despairado

Hello all, I am a new user. Admittedly, I am more of an audiophile and not as exstensively knowledgeable on the video side. My old 50 inch Sammy 720p just died ($950 light engine replacement), so I decided to do a HD upgrade.

I did go with another Sammy, the HLS6187, but this time I got the extended warranty. Since I was now in the 1080P realm, I decided to go HD on the DVD side as well.

Having never purchased an upconverting DVD player in the past, I don't know how great they are or aren't. With that said, I decided to go Blu-Ray. I purchased the Samsung player. My decision to go blu-ray were the following reasons (no particular order):

1. Blu-Ray has more titles currently that I enjoy and all indications show that this will continue into next year at least.
2. Even though more expensive, I really think it is the better format for greater Audio/video "capability" and "potential". I know, I know beta/vhs, blah, blah.
3. Blu-ray is supported by better manufacturers, IMO.
4. The Blu-ray players themselves seem to be of overall better quality.
5. I couldn't find a decent demo of HD-DVD anywhere, so I wasn't going to buy it just because it was cheaper. The Blu-Ray looked phenomenal on the type and size of TV I was purchasing, so I had something to go off of.
6. Even if Blu-Ray "loses" and their is no longer support for the format, by the time that happens HD-DVD players will be $200 or less, so it's not going to be that hard to get into the format. I will have done my part as a consumer to push better technology, and my investment in Blu-Ray will hardly go to waste as I can always watch them on my player.

I felt I needed to justify the purchase of Blu-ray, to prevent flaming. So far, I see this board as heavily biased against Blu-ray, and heavily biased against anything Sony. If anyone responds to this thread, I would appreciate if you would try to be unbiased, and only tout in, if you have first hand experience with Blu-ray. I respectfully thank you for that.

So anyway, after get everything home and set up. I pop in Superman Returns. Oh, by the way, I am running a Monster cable 1000 series HDMI from player to DVD, and a Monster 1000 series optical from player to receiver for sound. I am amazed by the picture, but honestly, doesn't seem as Hi-Def as movies on HBO-HD or what have you. The menus look super hi-res and the studio sequences as well, but the movie itself looks slightly less hi-def. Next was the cartoon Monster House. This movie looked absolutely stellar in everyway, but those pixar type movies always do to me, so the test went on.

After that, I decide to pop in a DVD to see what upconverting is all about. I got that whole James Bond collection for Christmas so I popped in Dr. No. I was even more blown away, because this upconverted DVD looked totally undistinguishable from the Blu-Ray I just took out!!! However, after the surprise wore off, I started to worry? Shouldn't Blu-Ray have totally blown upconverted DVD out of the water?

So the test went on. I tried an older DVD, and blam, there it was, Blu-Ray wins hands down. I think the disc I tried was Super-bit Bram Stokers Dracula for that test. Next up was The Punisher, and again the Blu-Ray movie looked better. Mind you, I am comparing everything to Superman returns at this point.

So then, I go back to my old DVD player, a Yamaha Progressive Scan C740, and sure enough, there is a big difference between standard DVD and upconverted DVD on my Blu-ray. Yet, my concern remains. Shouldn't Blu-Ray be totally blowing upconverted DVD out of the water?

I realize the only way I can test this is to purchase a Blu-Ray title which I already own on DVD. I decide to go with The Punisher, because I was always dissatisfied with the DVD transfer. What do I find? Again, the quality is nearly undistinquishable between Blu-Ray and the upconverted DVD. In frustration, I pop in the next Blu-ray purchased, Crank.

Wow!!!! Crank looks way more Hi-Def than any of the other Blu-Rays so far. Now, I finally am blown away by Blu-ray. This movie looks unbelievable. So I decide to continue on and try Sleepy Hollow on Blu-ray. Damn!! Didn't look as good as Crank! On to the Mission Impossible box set and again, not as good as Crank in PQ.

I am at a loss. What is going on here? Since I went from a 50" to a 61" TV, does everything look worse to me now? Is there something wrong with my Blu-Ray player? Is there something wrong with Blu-Ray software?

In DVD land, it was accepted by me that DVD's would be of differing PQ depending on transfer. With that, I honestly accepted the same would probably be true for Blu-Ray. However, the one thing I wasn't expecting was that some Blu-Ray transfers would be indestinquishable from upconverted DVD. As a whole, the worst Blu-Ray transfer should blow away any DVD upconvert away, hands down. Otherwise, what's the point of purchasing the software right now?

So, I wonder if anyone else feels the same way about their Blu-Ray experience so far? Have the titles been hit or miss for you too? I'm sure my review may sound harsh, but honestly everything I have put in so far has been the best PQ I've ever seen in my life nonetheless. I was just expecting a lot more, I think. The whole Blu-ray Vs. upconverted DVD's thing is killing me.

Standard DVD movies like the James Bond Collection and the Star Wars Saga, look almost too good!!!

Unbiased and honest HD-DVD owners, please also chime in. Have you had similar experiences with HD-DVD software?

I've got 30 days to try this out. At roughly $30 a pop, I'm not sure I want to keep purchasing Blu-Rays until there is some sort of transfer standard set. They should all look like Crank, and if they did, I would never look back.

El Despairado

Oh and by the way, I am totally blown away with Blu-Ray sound quality accross the board. To me, the sound alone is almost worth it.

dels28

On the titles that I have watched, the only one that didn't have the "its HD look" was MI3. The best movies I have seen on my display have been my blu-ray titles (other than MI3), crank and the Wild being the best blu-ray, and from HBO-IRobot, Transporter 2, and Domino. The HBO movies looked as good as some of my Blu-ray. Being they were 1080i broadcast and my display can only accept up to 1080i, it's understandable. But there is without a doubt a noticeable difference when watching SD-DVD in comparison to HD premium movies or blu-ray

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Noct

I have HD-DVD, but I have to wholeheartedly agree with you on the varying quality. A few titles I own are absolutely steller looking, but I have definately had a few that did not impress me at all. At first I thought it was the age of the original prints, and the type of film used, but that doesn't seem to be all encompassing.

Superman Returns for instance I thought would be the most amazing experience of my life, in that it was shot digitally with imax planned from the start. I assumed it was going to look like the cg from a 1080i videogame, and as I think you know....it doesn't. This movie has tanked the whole purchase at my house, all I hear from my wife now is what a waste of money the whole system was. Granted, I can get her to admit some movies look different, but she doesn't seem to think it was worth it. I think V for Vendetta and King Kong have been the only things so far she was impressed with. (And I don't believe they were even shot digitally)

I personally don't regret the purchase, but it is not as amazing as I had expected. Hopefully the big titles that I have seen a billion times in standard res will seem more impressive when they finally hit. (SW,LOTR,Matrix,etc..) I have heard SW and LOTR were shot at a much higher quality and rez then anything else so far, but that could be just buzz...

I WUV HD

You've been misinformed. While the last two Star Wars movies were shot with HD cameras (with Ep II not quite at 1080p,) the LOTR movies were shot on film. Contrary to what you may think, film has far more resolution than even the best HD cameras are capable of providing.

El Despairado

You know, after futher review, maybe I shouldn't have used the word, indistinguishable. Because, truth is, most upconverted DVD's do look worse than Blu-Rays in general. However, most of the time, the difference is pretty negligable. Surely doesn't seem to be the overall leaps and bounds jump that I expected. Then again, maybe the upconverting job this Samsung Blu-Ray player does is just phenomenal.

I am glad I am single, because I can totally understand what you're wife might be thinking. I don't regret the purchase either. I am just a little concerned, because I will regret the purchase if this is going to be a constant issue. In other words, I definitely won't be apt to try and replace the current titles in my DVD library with Blu-Ray counterparts until they look consistently "way better" than DVD. I would think that a higher standard of consistency in PQ will be in the near future though.

Has anyone else out there tried the SW DVD's or the James Bond Collection DVD's in a Blu-ray player?? SW Episode III really blew me away. That beginning sequence looks as good as anything I've seen on Blu-Ray so far. I think they might even look better than a couple of the Blu-ray titles I've purchased so far. IMO, the LOTR expanded editions didn't hold a candle to any of the SW DVD's I tried.

joba78

Thanks for the opinion here. Your account is exactly why I haven't jumped into the next gen format war. There are too many negligible differences between the two competing formats to invest in one over the other at intro market prices. And with an upconverting DVD player, the WOW factor from HD media isn't living up to potential as you can attest to.

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El Despairado

Yeah, that's the thing. The WOW factor is totally there, and I mean totally, but it isn't consistently there by any means.

So far, no, $600 for the player and about $250 invested in Blu-Ray titles so far has not been worth the 3 times I have been blown away. LOL, I am just one of those people who can't wait, if I have the cash in hand to get to the next level. In my case, I got such an awesome deal on the TV that I decided to turn my savings right over into Blu-Ray since I already decided to spend a set amount.

Here is a quick review of the PQ on Blu-Ray titles I purchased.

Superman Returns--Looks great, considerably better than DVD, but really doesn't blow your mind.

Monster House--WOW! This looks just phenomenal. However, it is a computer generated cartoon and they always look good.

Crank--Double Wow!!! This may be the best Hi-Def experience I have ever had. This movie is the perfect example of why this format was hyped in the first place. Again, if all the titles looked like this, no one owning an HD set would ever go back to DVD, period.

Mission Impossible I, II, III--Looks nearly on par with Superman Returns.

The Punisher--This one looks nearly totally identical to the upconverted DVD. The difference is so negligable that there is no way to justify spending the extra $10 on the Blu-Ray version. In fact, the Blu-Ray menus for this title are not even as cool looking as the DVD version!!!!

Sleepy Hollow--The transfer on this is somewhere in between The MI's and The Punisher. It looks better than upconverted DVD, but is still at the lower end of the HD spectrum in my opinion. When you pop a movie in and the movie studio introductions look more HD than the film, that is not good.

With all that said, rest assured that the audio on Blu-Ray is indeed head and shoulders better than DVD, accross the board.

I am just thankful I am getting such value viewing upconverted DVD's on this thing. Never having that capability before, I feel like my whole DVD library has been renewed.

I WUV HD

That's a load of BS. If you're not "wowed" by HD DVD over upconverted SD DVD, you need a new display or better eyesight. It's not even close, imo.

rockaway1836

I took the liberty of lifting this from AVS. It's not bible, but in general it's a good guide as to PQ on the BD side.



AVS Special Member

Fettastc
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,989 The Tier System For Blu-ray PQ

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Here it is, the sister thread to The Tier System of HD DVD PQ list.

This ongoing list is a place where we all can come together and rate/discuss new releases.

This list is in constant flux as new titles arrive, so check back frequently.

The titles within a tier are also in order of PQ. A title listed above another in the same tier has a slightly higher PQ rating.

A debate we often have here is in regard to "director's intent". Please note that this list does not reflect it. Sky Captain, for example, is purposefully blurry to mirror film stock of the time period it is honoring. However this reduces its placement on the list. While the director's intent is clear with this title, with others it is more difficult to discern. Since trying to divine it would be purely subjective, it doesn't have a place on this list. If blacks are crushed, like they are in Mission: Impossible III, the blacks are crushed. Some may find this pleasing, and it may well be director J.J. Abrams intention, but it decreases depth in dark areas and nearly eliminates shadow detail, so it gets knocked down a few pegs despite it's stunning sharpness.

3D as I refer to it here, are examples where an item is so detailed and sharp that it jumps off the screen. The opening pull-out of Marcus' eye in Underworld: Evolution is a good example.

Bobbed is an upconverting from 1080i process some masters at WB underwent. It reduces vertical resolution and introduces "jaggies" (stair-stepping).

The following signifiers refer to specific features found on Blu-ray discs and do not affect their placement on this list. They are present purely as a courtesy for our members. Please note that this list only refers to picture quality.

PCM refers to uncompressed audio tracks. This is a lossless audio codec which provides crystal clear sound.

MA refers to DTS Master Audio. DTS-HD Master Audio is a form of lossless packing (aka zip) used to deliver surround audio that is bit-for-bit identical to the original studio master. Current players are only able to decode the core 1.5mbps DTS signal provided for backward compatibility. Future players, as well as some existing players with a future software update, will decode the full extension track with the higher-fidelity DTS-HD Master Audio.

BW refers to Blu-Wizard. This is an interactive overlay in which you can check off a list of features to view. They will then apear during playback of the film at the relevant times.

IME refers to In Movie Experience, which is a term for HD DVD picture-in-picture functionality. I'm just using it here unless/until BD comes up with its own term. As of right now, BD-j, the overlay system that allows this feature, is not fully functional. As a intermediate solution, a seperate encode for the entire movie including the picture-in-picture information is also available seperate on the disc.

TIER 0- A deeply immersive experience. Flawless or near flawless transfers.

The Wild (PCM)
Crank (PCM)(IME)
Black Hawk Down (BW)(PCM)
Corpse Bride
The Ant Bully

TIER 1- No visible compression, sharp image with many examples of 3D.

Kingdom of Heaven (MA)
Ice Age: The Meltdown (MA)
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (MA)
Tears of the Sun (PCM)
Underworld: Evolution (PCM)
Gridiron Gang
X-Men: The Last Stand (MA)
Aeon Flux
Sahara
Goal: The Dream Begins
Mission: Impossible III (crushed blacks)
Eight Below (PCM)
Kung Fu Hustle (PCM)
World Trade Center
Training Day
ATL
Transporter 2 (MA)
Fantastic 4 (MA)
The Manchurian Candidate
Phantom of the Opera
Good Night and Good Luck
Toto: Live in Amsterdam
Swordfish
Into the Blue (PCM)
Invincible (PCM)
The Covenant (PCM)
The Descent (PCM)(IME) Must update Samsung and Sony BDP-S1
Memento (PCM)
Pearl Harbor (PCM)
Scooby Doo
Monster House (PCM)
Behind Enemy Lines (MA)

Tier 2- Very good
Not as many 3D effects, but a very sharp image that feels real

The Brothers Grimm (PCM)
Ultraviolet (PCM)
The Transporter (MA)
Flightplan (PCM)
Haunted Mansion (PCM)
Stargate
S.W.A.T. (PCM)
Enemy of the State (PCM)
Species (PCM)
Resident Evil: Apocalypse (PCM)(BW)
The Great Raid(PCM)
Syriana
Space Cowboys
The Last Samurai
Stealth (PCM)
Lord of War
Stir of Echoes
Dinosaur (PCM)
Gone in 60 Seconds (PCM)
House of Wax
Blazing Saddles
Glory Road
Sky Captain (purposefully blurry)
Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang
Click (PCM)
The Terminator (PCM)
Million Dollar Baby
Unforgiven
Under Siege
Mission Impossible 2
Mission: Impossible
Speed (MA)
50 First Dates (PCM)
Four Brothers
16 Blocks
Johnny Legend: Live at the House of Blues
Rumor Has It
The Exorcism of Emily Rose (UK Import)(PCM)
Terminator 2
Superman: The Movie
RV (PCM)
Superman Returns

Tier 3- Good
Few 3D effects, some digital noise/artifacting

The Black Crowes
The Lake House
Rocky
The Devil Wears Prada
Hostel (UK Import)(PCM)
Firewall
The Italian Job
Lethal Weapon 2 (bobbed)
Silent Hill (PCM)
Lethal Weapon (bobbed)
Talladega Nights (PCM)
The Devil's Rejects
The New Orleans Benefit Concert
Tomb Raider
Goodfellas
Sky High (PCM)
Crash
Dark Water (PCM)
Hitch (PCM)
Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut
Saw
Total Recall
XXX (PCM)
Nacho Libre
Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back
Employee of the Month (PCM)
Sleepy Hollow (digital noise)
Reds

Tier 4- A bit underwhelmed
Visible artifacting, softness, few if any 3D effects

U2: Rattle and Hum
The Dirty Dozen
The Fugitive (bobbed)
Full Metal Jacket (bobbed)
The Fifth Element (PCM)
The House of Flying Daggers

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joba78

"Wowed" in the sense that its not enough visual impact to win my hard earned dollar at current market prices. I am "wowed" by the HD content of my X360 and I WUV it. However, my X360 was marketed to me as a gamer, not an HD videophile. This difference should be obvious...not BS

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ja2935

I started a similar thread a few weeks ago with my HD DVD experience. It did not have the wow factor I expected. I was comparing Phantom of the Opera SD DVD on my regular 480p player against the same title on HD DVD. After much discussion where some people considered I must be insane for not immediately seeing the difference, I have concluded that there is not a great deal of difference when watching on my 34" crt from about 8 feet. The likely reasons are:-
1. My tv does a great job of upconverting so SD DVDs looked pretty good anyway.
2. The tv size and viewing distance reduces the definition and thus the wow factor.

The A2 actually is a much better player than the 480p for upconversion - tested back to back with 2001 in SD - less jaggies with the A2.
I was generally content until I did a back to back of SD Winged Migration in the A2 synchronised with the same film on Discovery HD - guess what, there was an enormous difference!

Many people say that HD DVD/BR should be a much better picture than HD cable/sat/OTA - well I don't think that is true on my equipment!

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El Despairado

Well, I have perfect vision and, me display is rated one of the best out there for PQ. The Samsung HLS6187 may not be "the best" but it's certainly no piece of crap either. My Sammy Blu-Ray player upconverts SD DVD to 1080p and I am telling you, that some upconverted SD DVD's look "at least" as good as "some" Blu-Rays. No matter what display you have, if you put in a Blu-Ray movie like The Punisher and you think it looks head and shoulders better than an upconverted SD DVD like SW Episode III, then I think you are so completely biased that you can't resolve to the truth.

Nobody, not me certainly, is saying that the "best" that Blu-Ray has to offer isn't completely better than upconverted SD-DVD. We agreed, a movie like Crank, is what this format is all about! I am just saying, overall, most of the time any improvement has been small in comparison to the hype over the format in general. I think we can agree, we'd like to see all the Blu-Rays be on par in PQ with something like Crank. There is no reason they shouldn't be, but I think that is the studio's fault, not the technology.

rockaway1836

The Sammy upconverts to 1280x720 not to 1080p. Just so as I had the numbers correct I just threw in Cars in to my Sammy and checked the input level on my TV. You may have been typing and missed post 10 of this thread where I posted the tier level for BD PQ.

PS, Here's a little tid-bit that I just noticed. After playing Cars my Sammy re-set it's self to 720p. I had to re-set back to 1080p to play All the Kings Men

I WUV HD

What's BS, if you read my comment, is the statement that "with an upconverting DVD player, the WOW factor from HD media isn't living up to potential." SD DVD pales in comparison to HD DVD, even when the SD DVD has been upconverted. Your 360 has nothing to do with the conversation.