Blu-Ray undistinguishable from upconverted DVD?

junehhan · 01-25-2007, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Despairado

Personally, I think "you" are a loser no matter what cable you are using. LOL.

Wow, I can't believe I got flamed for what cable I chose to use! Get a life.

Anyway, I just wanted to add that after dialing in the TV a little better, everything is looking great. After getting the set dialed in, I am surprised at what a huge difference it made. I am thoroughly enjoying Blu-Ray now, but as stated, some titles are definitely better than others.

Don't pay attention to the Monster haters on this forum. Monster cables are horribly overpriced, but they are probably some of the highest quality cables on the market. They might not make much of a difference in image or audio performance, but sometimes the cost is worth knowing that they will just "work" when they are supposed to. I exclusively use Monster cables because they are built very rugged. It becomes important since i've got so many wires and cables running around each other, as i'm also constantly plugging and unplugging cables to rearrange my setup. The way they are built, they look like they can definately withstand some wear and tear. I want to know that the cables will stand the test of time no matter how often I move them around. The fact that they all have a lifetime warranty isn't a bad deal either. Monster cables are also very well shielded. This may not make much of a difference in optical or HDMI cables, but it can make a huge difference in analogue cables when they are all running into and around each other, as well as around some components that are likely to cause some interference. Monster cables are also very aesthetically pleasing to the eye as they do look pretty good. I use the Monster ultra 1000 series HDMI cable too, so you guys might as well flame me as well. I also use a set of Monster ulta600 series interconnects for my analogue audio, a Monster optical for my X360, and a Monster ultra1000 THX cable for the subwoofer as well as Monster speaker wires. Flame at me too then.............

If someone uses Monster cables, it's okay to offer suggestions to that person. However, why outright attack them for a personal choice they chose to make? It's their money and you didn't buy it for them, so why care?

**PFC5** · 01-25-2007, 01:01 PM

I agree junehhan that NO ONE should be attacking ANYONE on this forum. PERIOD!!!!!

HiramAbiff · 01-25-2007, 02:00 PM

Wow, I didn't realize my little wisecrack would be construed as an attack or insult. Sorry everybody.

For the record, I wasn't calling anybody a loser, so if you think I was, go back and read what I wrote, you'll see I was being hypothetical about *myself*.

Allin4greeN · 01-25-2007, 03:05 PM

Sheesh... I didn't think I was flaming or attacking, really more of a simple troll-like effort at comic relief. Hence the [/trolloff] in my post.

Boredom got the best of me, I'm sorry.

**PFC5** · 01-25-2007, 03:09 PM

No problem.

We went through a rough patch here where everyone was arguing and attacking each other, and I just do not want that to happen again.

GLOW · 01-25-2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Despairado

Personally, I think "you" are a loser no matter what cable you are using. LOL.

Wow, I can't believe I got flamed for what cable I chose to use! Get a life.

Anyway, I just wanted to add that after dialing in the TV a little better, everything is looking great. After getting the set dialed in, I am surprised at what a huge difference it made. I am thoroughly enjoying Blu-Ray now, but as stated, some titles are definitely better than others.

Don't let these guys get to you too much. You will be attacked on this forum no matter what you say because you support Blu-ray. I'm sure the HD DVD fanboys have already started driving you off the board. They do this to every Blu-ray supporter that comes on here. I stay here just to piss them off.

Eventually after Blu-ray has kicked HD DVD's ass all over the place, I will have mercy and bow out and let them wallow in their sorrow in peace.

HiramAbiff · 01-25-2007, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GLOW

I stay here just to piss them off.

I thought it was to entertain us? Oh well, keep up the good work.

**PFC5** · 01-25-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GLOW

Don't let these guys get to you too much. You will be attacked on this forum no matter what you say because you support Blu-ray. I'm sure the HD DVD fanboys have already started driving you off the board. They do this to every Blu-ray supporter that comes on here. I stay here just to piss them off.

Eventually after Blu-ray has kicked HD DVD's ass all over the place, I will have mercy and bow out and let them wallow in their sorrow in peace.

Despite what they say or what you think Glow, I think many people here DO want you to stay, and enjoy what you contribute. I for one do, and I do not want to deter anyone who likes BD from posting. The best way to provide info to others is to have accurate info on BOTH formats here so others can make informed decisions.

El Despairado · 01-25-2007, 05:32 PM

Yes, I am here to stay. I find the advice within these threads to be extremely valuable. Honetly though, the fact that consumers of BD have to defend the format ad infinitum is a little off-putting. Somehow, as a person who is trying Blu-ray, I get the feeling that you guys think I am just some uninformed sucker. What I really think is going on, is that the majority of the users here are people who are into the cutting edge of HD technology, and I think most of you jumped on HD-DVD because it came out first. Now, because another format (which we all new was coming) is seriously challenging your chosen format, you are getting nervous. That's to be expected, and I will be nervous too if I feel my format is waning, but it won't be the end of the world. It certainly won't be enough to resort to flaming people for anything and everything they have to offer on the subject.

I don't see why you have to feel that way though. This is how I see it. If there is a sole winner in this market and the other format goes by the wayside completely; players that support "both" formats will become the norm. I don't understand what all you HD-DVD guys are afraid of? A consumer who bought a BD standalone player like myself have a lot more of an investment to lose right now. You most likely paid half the price for your HD-DVD player than what we are paying or BD players.

If you are getting into the realm of HD moviegoing this early, you are taking a slight gamble. I think we all know that now, and fully understood that when we got into this thing. I've already stated the reasons I went for BD, as opposed to HD-DVD and I think they are good solid reasons. I'm no schmuck. Having a lot of knowledge on both formats prior to launch, I by-passed HD-DVD and waited for BD even though I knew it would be more expensive. I did so, because I thought and still do think it "should be" the better format overall.

There is this concensus here that supporters of BD are uninformed, immature, gamer type kids who don't know any better. Like the only people who care about BD are PS3 owners. I am here to tell you, that is not the case. I don't own a Sony TV, I down own any Sony components, and I've never owned any Playstation product.

I wish people would just be a little more open minded and not try and paint everyone with the same brush. I guess maybe this Glow guy has been here a while and has got under your skin. From what I've seen, he definitely could be a little more tactful in trying to show others the blu-ray light. Anyway, I have pretty thick skin so, if people need to flame me because of the format I chose, or the cabling I use, then flame-on. I am here to stay.

p.s. I too use Monster Cable exclusively. Every cable I have is 1000 series THX stuff. A lot of people probably see that as a waste, but to me it is worth the overall durabilty and the look, and it is a brand I trust. Oh and by the way, it's not just about the best cabling costing the most. There is cabling out there that costs a lot more then the most expensive cabling Monster has to offer.

HiramAbiff · 01-25-2007, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Despairado

p.s. I too use Monster Cable exclusively. Every cable I have is 1000 series THX stuff. A lot of people probably see that as a waste, but to me it is worth the overall durabilty and the look, and it is a brand I trust. Oh and by the way, it's not just about the best cabling costing the most. There is cabling out there that costs a lot more then the most expensive cabling Monster has to offer.

There's nothing really wrong with Monster Cables (except the tight grips can strip your jacks, which could be a problem in certain situations), it's just that it's not really worth the money for most users. For any digital connection (digital audio, HDMI, etc.) the cable only has to be good enough to send the signal. Degradation isn't an issue for ordinary home use, the signal is either received or it isn't. An environment with a lot of interference or a big home theater with long cable runs would demand high-quality cables even for digital connections.

For analog connections like component/s-video/composite, etc. cable quality is more important, but again you don't really need to spend that money. If you shop around you can find very-sturdy, well-shielded cables for a song. Heck, for speaker cable, lamp cord from Home Depot works as well as anything, and that goes for hardcore two-channel audiophile nuts too, not just movies.

**PFC5** · 01-25-2007, 06:04 PM

Here is a great link I give to people to read who wonder about whether better cable will help improve the PQ/SQ of their components:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,12...1/article.html

No one is saying that Monster cables are bad, but they just are not a good value if they do not SHOW any improvement over a brand that costs 1/3 or 1/4 the money. I can understand having comfort in KNOWING that you are getting a good cable for your system, but I think the very heavy handed marketing (many outright lies are told by salesmen) of the Monster brand. The reason it is pushed so hard is because the markups are much higher for this brand so the retailers can make a bigger profit off the cables than they can off the hardware the cables connect to. Basically this is the same as the marketing strategy that Bose uses for a product that is inferior compared to the same money spent on another brand.

No one should attack anyone and I do hope you stick around EL. The more the merrier. We CAN argue/debate the formats and still all remain civil and friendly here. As long as we all remember to treat each other with respect.

mak99 · 01-25-2007, 06:59 PM

No one should buy Monster cables for more than actual cost. The markup is quite high, and you can own equal (if not better) cables for much less. And they have the WORST connectors that rip off your jacks, like was noted earlier!

I personally used Monster way back when because it was the "thing to do". I've since sold all of them and replaced initially with AQ, then tried Chord (UK) and now Kimber - much better sound and construction quality than Monster. Kimber's my preferred now, and I never buy retail, I always go thru Ebay or Audiogon. I'm also experimenting now w/ Blue Jeans Cable, per recommendations over at AVS. I've been impressed with the component and HDMI cables that I have so far - and they are all "broadcast quality" and unbelievable cheap. Read their website for some interesting tidbits. Their office/warehouse is literally five minutes from my office, and I've dropped by to talk shop (great guys) and buy cables on the spot, even custom lengths in minutes.

I'd like to see the cost of BJC's HDMI cable (24 ga, silver-coated copper) compared to Monster's similar model. I bet most of you would have a heart attack. My HDMI on my HD DVD player and my DVI-HDMI for cable are both BJC, and I cannot imagine the picture being any better than it already is. For reference, I have the HD-XA1 and Hitachi 42HDT52A (1024x1024 panel), both calibrated w/ DVE.

So do yourself AND your wallet a favor - give BJC a try and see if you notice any difference. I have no vested interest in BJC except as a happy customer.

OK, back to topic!!

junehhan · 01-25-2007, 07:14 PM

For me, I chose to support HD-DVD not because they were the first to market(although that might be true for some), but because it made the most sense for me. I bought the HD-A1 because I had heard that it was an amazing upconverting player. The fact that it played HD-DVD's was really just icing on the cake as it didn't interest me at the time(I only initially bought Doom and Apollo 13). It was only after I purchased it that I found what an incredible value it was. More people would be buying BDP's if they had a player available at $500 that had DD+ and DTHD decoders built in, along with the ability to also act as a high end CD player. If the HD-A1 was priced at the same price as the BDP's, I doubt I would have ever joined this addiction they call high definition movies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Despairado

Yes, I am here to stay. I find the advice within these threads to be extremely valuable. Honetly though, the fact that consumers of BD have to defend the format ad infinitum is a little off-putting. Somehow, as a person who is trying Blu-ray, I get the feeling that you guys think I am just some uninformed sucker. What I really think is going on, is that the majority of the users here are people who are into the cutting edge of HD technology, and I think most of you jumped on HD-DVD because it came out first. Now, because another format (which we all new was coming) is seriously challenging your chosen format, you are getting nervous. That's to be expected, and I will be nervous too if I feel my format is waning, but it won't be the end of the world. It certainly won't be enough to resort to flaming people for anything and everything they have to offer on the subject.

I don't see why you have to feel that way though. This is how I see it. If there is a sole winner in this market and the other format goes by the wayside completely; players that support "both" formats will become the norm. I don't understand what all you HD-DVD guys are afraid of? A consumer who bought a BD standalone player like myself have a lot more of an investment to lose right now. You most likely paid half the price for your HD-DVD player than what we are paying or BD players.

If you are getting into the realm of HD moviegoing this early, you are taking a slight gamble. I think we all know that now, and fully understood that when we got into this thing. I've already stated the reasons I went for BD, as opposed to HD-DVD and I think they are good solid reasons. I'm no schmuck. Having a lot of knowledge on both formats prior to launch, I by-passed HD-DVD and waited for BD even though I knew it would be more expensive. I did so, because I thought and still do think it "should be" the better format overall.

There is this concensus here that supporters of BD are uninformed, immature, gamer type kids who don't know any better. Like the only people who care about BD are PS3 owners. I am here to tell you, that is not the case. I don't own a Sony TV, I down own any Sony components, and I've never owned any Playstation product.

I wish people would just be a little more open minded and not try and paint everyone with the same brush. I guess maybe this Glow guy has been here a while and has got under your skin. From what I've seen, he definitely could be a little more tactful in trying to show others the blu-ray light. Anyway, I have pretty thick skin so, if people need to flame me because of the format I chose, or the cabling I use, then flame-on. I am here to stay.

p.s. I too use Monster Cable exclusively. Every cable I have is 1000 series THX stuff. A lot of people probably see that as a waste, but to me it is worth the overall durabilty and the look, and it is a brand I trust. Oh and by the way, it's not just about the best cabling costing the most. There is cabling out there that costs a lot more then the most expensive cabling Monster has to offer.

Allin4greeN · 01-25-2007, 07:43 PM

I chose HD DVD because I could "get into the game" at a considerable savings with the 360 add-on. What I found once I got in was that the PQ was clearly better than anything that was previously thrown on my PDP. I don't really consider myself a jockstrap for HD DVD. Rather, I'm simply anxious to explore the format as much as I can. Given my good experience with the add-on, I might actually pick up an XA1 to check out the 5.1 outs and see what I'm missing in SQ.

The more that I read about the competing formats, the more I realize how wise my decision was. I'm anxiously awaiting a few "import" titles tomorrow, Equlibrium and The Gift. Has anyone seen this title? It looks like Elephants Dream makes full use of HDi features.

Anyway, regarding the cables... the entire approach to building my little home theater has been to make value decisions. I seek out the best bang for my buck, AKA I'm cheap as hell. Feel free to make fun of me for that as, I don't really care.

xploitedcinema, Elephants Dream http://xploitedcinema.com/catalog/el...e-p-11016.html

junehhan · 01-25-2007, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GLOW

Don't let these guys get to you too much. You will be attacked on this forum no matter what you say because you support Blu-ray. I'm sure the HD DVD fanboys have already started driving you off the board. They do this to every Blu-ray supporter that comes on here. I stay here just to piss them off.

Eventually after Blu-ray has kicked HD DVD's ass all over the place, I will have mercy and bow out and let them wallow in their sorrow in peace.

You don't seem to post on the forums late at night, but a lot has now happened since this post. Mr. El D. is now about to be a proud owner of a HD-XA2!

01-25-2007, 01:01 PM	#47
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 31,154	I agree junehhan that NO ONE should be attacking ANYONE on this forum. PERIOD!!!!! __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

01-25-2007, 03:05 PM	#49
Allin4greeN Let's try this button... Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 858	Sheesh... I didn't think I was flaming or attacking, really more of a simple troll-like effort at comic relief. Hence the [/trolloff] in my post. Boredom got the best of me, I'm sorry. __________________ Vizio P50HDTV10A\|Dell Inspiron 1720 w/BDD & HD DVD Add-on\|XBox360\|Toshiba D-VR5\|ViP622 \|Sirius S50-TK1\|RS15-1870 OTA\|Yamaha HTR 5750 (6.1)\|Yamaha NS-AP4400M 3-way mains\|Yamaha NS-AP4400E 3-way center w/2-way surrounds\|Yamaha YST-SW015 sub\|Belkin AP30800-10\|Harmony 676 \|\| Westinghouse LTV-32w1\|Samsung HD850\|ViP211

01-25-2007, 03:09 PM	#50
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 31,154	No problem. We went through a rough patch here where everyone was arguing and attacking each other, and I just do not want that to happen again. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

01-25-2007, 05:32 PM	#54
El Despairado HD DVD: Still the best! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: North Dakota Age: 33 Posts: 903	Yes, I am here to stay. I find the advice within these threads to be extremely valuable. Honetly though, the fact that consumers of BD have to defend the format ad infinitum is a little off-putting. Somehow, as a person who is trying Blu-ray, I get the feeling that you guys think I am just some uninformed sucker. What I really think is going on, is that the majority of the users here are people who are into the cutting edge of HD technology, and I think most of you jumped on HD-DVD because it came out first. Now, because another format (which we all new was coming) is seriously challenging your chosen format, you are getting nervous. That's to be expected, and I will be nervous too if I feel my format is waning, but it won't be the end of the world. It certainly won't be enough to resort to flaming people for anything and everything they have to offer on the subject. I don't see why you have to feel that way though. This is how I see it. If there is a sole winner in this market and the other format goes by the wayside completely; players that support "both" formats will become the norm. I don't understand what all you HD-DVD guys are afraid of? A consumer who bought a BD standalone player like myself have a lot more of an investment to lose right now. You most likely paid half the price for your HD-DVD player than what we are paying or BD players. If you are getting into the realm of HD moviegoing this early, you are taking a slight gamble. I think we all know that now, and fully understood that when we got into this thing. I've already stated the reasons I went for BD, as opposed to HD-DVD and I think they are good solid reasons. I'm no schmuck. Having a lot of knowledge on both formats prior to launch, I by-passed HD-DVD and waited for BD even though I knew it would be more expensive. I did so, because I thought and still do think it "should be" the better format overall. There is this concensus here that supporters of BD are uninformed, immature, gamer type kids who don't know any better. Like the only people who care about BD are PS3 owners. I am here to tell you, that is not the case. I don't own a Sony TV, I down own any Sony components, and I've never owned any Playstation product. I wish people would just be a little more open minded and not try and paint everyone with the same brush. I guess maybe this Glow guy has been here a while and has got under your skin. From what I've seen, he definitely could be a little more tactful in trying to show others the blu-ray light. Anyway, I have pretty thick skin so, if people need to flame me because of the format I chose, or the cabling I use, then flame-on. I am here to stay. p.s. I too use Monster Cable exclusively. Every cable I have is 1000 series THX stuff. A lot of people probably see that as a waste, but to me it is worth the overall durabilty and the look, and it is a brand I trust. Oh and by the way, it's not just about the best cabling costing the most. There is cabling out there that costs a lot more then the most expensive cabling Monster has to offer. Last edited by El Despairado; 01-25-2007 at 05:39 PM.

01-25-2007, 06:04 PM	#56
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 31,154	Here is a great link I give to people to read who wonder about whether better cable will help improve the PQ/SQ of their components: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,12...1/article.html No one is saying that Monster cables are bad, but they just are not a good value if they do not SHOW any improvement over a brand that costs 1/3 or 1/4 the money. I can understand having comfort in KNOWING that you are getting a good cable for your system, but I think the very heavy handed marketing (many outright lies are told by salesmen) of the Monster brand. The reason it is pushed so hard is because the markups are much higher for this brand so the retailers can make a bigger profit off the cables than they can off the hardware the cables connect to. Basically this is the same as the marketing strategy that Bose uses for a product that is inferior compared to the same money spent on another brand. No one should attack anyone and I do hope you stick around EL. The more the merrier. We CAN argue/debate the formats and still all remain civil and friendly here. As long as we all remember to treat each other with respect. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

01-25-2007, 02:00 PM	#48
HiramAbiff HD-DVD--for movie lovers Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Age: 27 Posts: 1,390	Wow, I didn't realize my little wisecrack would be construed as an attack or insult. Sorry everybody. For the record, I wasn't calling anybody a loser, so if you think I was, go back and read what I wrote, you'll see I was being hypothetical about myself.

01-25-2007, 06:59 PM	#57
mak99 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 89	No one should buy Monster cables for more than actual cost. The markup is quite high, and you can own equal (if not better) cables for much less. And they have the WORST connectors that rip off your jacks, like was noted earlier! I personally used Monster way back when because it was the "thing to do". I've since sold all of them and replaced initially with AQ, then tried Chord (UK) and now Kimber - much better sound and construction quality than Monster. Kimber's my preferred now, and I never buy retail, I always go thru Ebay or Audiogon. I'm also experimenting now w/ Blue Jeans Cable, per recommendations over at AVS. I've been impressed with the component and HDMI cables that I have so far - and they are all "broadcast quality" and unbelievable cheap. Read their website for some interesting tidbits. Their office/warehouse is literally five minutes from my office, and I've dropped by to talk shop (great guys) and buy cables on the spot, even custom lengths in minutes. I'd like to see the cost of BJC's HDMI cable (24 ga, silver-coated copper) compared to Monster's similar model. I bet most of you would have a heart attack. My HDMI on my HD DVD player and my DVI-HDMI for cable are both BJC, and I cannot imagine the picture being any better than it already is. For reference, I have the HD-XA1 and Hitachi 42HDT52A (1024x1024 panel), both calibrated w/ DVE. So do yourself AND your wallet a favor - give BJC a try and see if you notice any difference. I have no vested interest in BJC except as a happy customer. OK, back to topic!! Last edited by mak99; 01-25-2007 at 07:02 PM.

01-25-2007, 07:43 PM	#59
Allin4greeN Let's try this button... Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 858	I chose HD DVD because I could "get into the game" at a considerable savings with the 360 add-on. What I found once I got in was that the PQ was clearly better than anything that was previously thrown on my PDP. I don't really consider myself a jockstrap for HD DVD. Rather, I'm simply anxious to explore the format as much as I can. Given my good experience with the add-on, I might actually pick up an XA1 to check out the 5.1 outs and see what I'm missing in SQ. The more that I read about the competing formats, the more I realize how wise my decision was. I'm anxiously awaiting a few "import" titles tomorrow, Equlibrium and The Gift. Has anyone seen this title? It looks like Elephants Dream makes full use of HDi features. Anyway, regarding the cables... the entire approach to building my little home theater has been to make value decisions. I seek out the best bang for my buck, AKA I'm cheap as hell. Feel free to make fun of me for that as, I don't really care. xploitedcinema, Elephants Dream http://xploitedcinema.com/catalog/el...e-p-11016.html __________________ Vizio P50HDTV10A\|Dell Inspiron 1720 w/BDD & HD DVD Add-on\|XBox360\|Toshiba D-VR5\|ViP622 \|Sirius S50-TK1\|RS15-1870 OTA\|Yamaha HTR 5750 (6.1)\|Yamaha NS-AP4400M 3-way mains\|Yamaha NS-AP4400E 3-way center w/2-way surrounds\|Yamaha YST-SW015 sub\|Belkin AP30800-10\|Harmony 676 \|\| Westinghouse LTV-32w1\|Samsung HD850\|ViP211

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