Blu-Ray player: will it sale?

Cygnus · 05-25-2006, 09:03 AM

PS3 is being released mid November.

LordGamer · 05-25-2006, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cousin eddie

Wait a minute, I thought the PS3 was not going to be out until the September/October time frame. I would probably be willing to pay an extra $100 if I could get a BD next month. Are you talking about the BD players? Those are supposed to be in the $800 to $1000 range aren't they? I just can't afford to spend another $200 to $500 on a standalone player, although that is what I would prefer to have.

You are correct, my apologies for the confusion. Standalone Blu-ray players will start being released next month. The expected cost for the Samsung player is about $1,000.

Playstation 3 will be released in November (17th, I believe) with two model options... $500 and $600. Both are Blu-ray players.

Question though... You stated "...although that is what I would prefer to have." Did you mean you prefer to have a Blu-ray player over a HD-DVD player?

If so, I would advise you just hold off a little longer and save up the money. Not because I'm saying BR is better than HD-DVD, just because I have a strong belief of going for what you want in life and not settling.

cousin eddie · 05-25-2006, 09:56 AM

Actually, I meant I would prefer a standalone player instead of the PS3. As far as which format, that is a difficult question. All things being equal, (ie: release dates and price) I would have probably bought a BD player. Why? Because I have read that those who have actually seen PQ on a BD player have said it is far and away a better picture. I wish I could remember where I read that, but it has escaped me.

All of that being said, I think I will buy the HD-DVD player. For the reasons stated in my previous post. And because I am a little concerned about the MPEG-2 talk I read earlier. One more thing though. because I want to make sure I understand. Do I have to buy a new receiver to get any audio at all out of the BD?

These may sound like stupid questions but it is sometimes difficult to keep up with what everyone is talking about.

strawberry · 05-25-2006, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cousin eddie

Actually, I meant I would prefer a standalone player instead of the PS3. As far as which format, that is a difficult question. All things being equal, (ie: release dates and price) I would have probably bought a BD player. Why? Because I have read that those who have actually seen PQ on a BD player have said it is far and away a better picture.

I wouldn't put any stock into that- I would wait to see it with your own eyes before basing a purchasing decision on it. There's no technical reason that I can think of that BR should be producing any better picture than HD-DVD. PQ should be a wash between the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cousin eddie

All of that being said, I think I will buy the HD-DVD player. For the reasons stated in my previous post. And because I am a little concerned about the MPEG-2 talk I read earlier. One more thing though. because I want to make sure I understand. Do I have to buy a new receiver to get any audio at all out of the BD?

Well, this is kind of a contradiction of your first point- are we worried about PQ with BR, or aren't we? The MPEG-2 thing is nothing to worry about. Early studio releases for both camps are generally very stripped down, feature-incomplete versions of these movies- meaning that less disc space is being taken up by things other than the feature. For the time being, BR won't suffer for using MPEG-2. By the time we're hitting a point where more efficient compression is required, BR can easily transition to one of the other codecs. For the most part, the early realeases for both BR and HD-DVD will have to see re-release a year or two down the road to compensate for technological advance in the realm of authoring and encoding. The same thing happened to early DVD releases.

I'd urge you to be patient. There's no rule that says you have to buy one of these players right now, this year. The only thing that can happen by waiting a year is that you'll get a better player for less money and have a much wider selection of movies to pick from. If you're in a big rush to get a player this year, though, the hybrid player by Samsung may be a great option to consider.

PFC5 · 05-25-2006, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordGamer

HD Gu...I mean, Revolv. Just please answer me the following questions, with a simple yes or no answer...

Are the Blu-ray players able to output 1080p? Answer: MOST

Are the HD-DVD players able to output 1080p? Answer: NOT YET (Possibly with firmware update in 1G, but 2g YES)

Bolded answers are my answers

LordGamer:

Keep one thing in mind. We all KNOW that 1080p is a red herring. Currently 99.9% of all 16+ million HDTVs do not accept 1080p inputs and never will (hardware limits). New models from the major HDTV mfg plan entries sometime this year or next that CAN accept 1080p.

Other than the HP DLPs (30% more expensive than 1080/720p sets that cannot accept 1080p) the only other RPTV that can is the uber expensive Brillian LCOS RPTV. Most of the remaining flat panel LCDs are too small to notice much of a difference between SD DVD & HD-DVD/BD from more than 5 feet away, so 1080p is moot for them.

I have read a lot from VERY smart people on many forums who say that any PQ differences with 1080p output vs 1080i output would hardly (if at all) noticeable, and then only closer than the normal viewing distances. The VERY SLIGHT difference would basically NOT be resolved (noticeable) at normal viewing distances.

THESE are the reasons why it is a red herring, for now and likely for the next 5+ years.

Let me pose 2 questions to YOU:

1. If you have one of the 99.9% of HDTVs that does not accept 1080p would only having 1080i ouput matter MUCH to YOU?

2. If you have a HT surround system, would you rather be able to get the HD audio you can use NOW or 1080p that you cannot use until you buy another higher end HDTV that accepts 1080p?

THAT is really the relevent questions that need to be answered IMO.

strawberry · 05-25-2006, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cousin eddie

Do I have to buy a new receiver to get any audio at all out of the BD?

Oh yeah- forgot to answer this one. Of course you don't need a new receiver to get audio out of BD. The initial players from Sony and Samsung lack decoders for the new HD audio formats, but they can still output them as DD or DTS. I'd expect to see that some of the early players on the BR side (meaning launch +1 year) will handle the codecs natively, and others will not. If these new audio codecs are a do-or-die proposition for you, though, then it's a strong reason to look at HD-DVD.

LordGamer · 05-25-2006, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cousin eddie

Do I have to buy a new receiver to get any audio at all out of the BD?

These may sound like stupid questions but it is sometimes difficult to keep up with what everyone is talking about.

First off, ditto what Berry said. Waiting a little while would get you the most "bang for your buck," as well as getting a better status on the state of how the formats are doing. Personally, I wouldn't buy either player till at least this holiday season. But to each their own.

Believe me, the tech talk is confusing to most. And I for one, don't claim to know all the details. Just keep in mind, technical, doesn't mean real world. So, just because it seems great on a tech sheet, doesn't mean it will translate to your eyes and ears. Also, these players are first generation technology, with many advancements to come.

As for... Do I have to buy a new receiver to get any audio at all out of the BD?

No, your current receiver would be fine and will support the current big audio codecs (so you will get audio). There are three new HD audio codecs...two from Dolby (Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD) and a lesser popular one from DTS (DTS-HD).

NONE of the HD players (from either camp), fully support these new audio codecs. Later players should support the codecs much better. Now before anyone jumps up and down, currently the HD-DVD player do support them better than the BR ones.

LordGamer · 05-25-2006, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Let me pose 2 questions to YOU:

1. If you have one of the 99.9% of HDTVs that does not accept 1080p would only having 1080i ouput matter MUCH to YOU?

2. If you have a HT surround system, would you rather be able to get the HD audio you can use NOW or 1080p that you cannot use until you buy another higher end HDTV that accepts 1080p?

THAT is really the relevent questions that need to be answered IMO.

i. Yes, it would matter to me. Why? We are spending hundreds, thousands of dollars on new technology. We are the minority. As such, if I'm dropping thousands of dollars on hardware I plan on having for awhile, I would plan to get the best possible. Furthermore, HD is about the visual quality first, audio second. To me, they're equally as important, but when people talk about HD, they generally talk about HD visual quality.

It seems silly to me, to have newly released HD players and 1080p movies, yet the players themselves don't support the highest standardized HD resolution. Plus, 1080p sets are becoming more common every month.

But here is my more important point (which will also serve to answer question two), that I believe Strawberry was trying to hit on as well...

People are using the lack of 1080p sets and "little" improvement 1080p offers over 1080i, as a reason to downplay the feature. However, the same people are acting as if people have the quality audio equipment to showcase these new audio codecs. And further still, even be able to appreciate the difference. If someone isn't able to tell the difference between 1080p and 1080i de-interlaced, what makes people believe they could tell the difference between Dolby Digital and DD+?

Yes, my current 5.1 system (thanks to the analog) inputs would receive the decoded signal, but it's also an old 350 watt setup from Phillips. Secondly, the HD-DVD players are not fully supporting the codecs either (only two channels to my knowledge), so the benefit of the audio is being reduced even more.

So, all I'm saying is, to each their own. If you want 1080p "now," go with a Blu-ray player. If you want a more supported HD audio codec, go with HD-DVD. But I don't believe it's fair to downplay the importance of 1080p considering HD audio codecs are in the same boat.

PFC5 · 05-25-2006, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordGamer

i. Yes, it would matter to me. Why? We are spending hundreds, thousands of dollars on new technology. We are the minority. As such, if I'm dropping thousands of dollars on hardware I plan on having for awhile, I would plan to get the best possible. Furthermore, HD is about the visual quality first, audio second. To me, they're equally as important, but when people talk about HD, they generally talk about HD visual quality.

Agreed most people look at the visual side of HD FIRST, but the audio is the 2nd most important thing touted in HD service/content.

If you already have a HDTV, my point IS that with HD-DVD players you only have to pay $500.00 NOT thousands of dollars. You WILL however pay thousands for the same HD audio with the BR players.

Quote:

It seems silly to me, to have newly released HD players and 1080p movies, yet the players themselves don't support the highest standardized HD resolution. Plus, 1080p sets are becoming more common every month.

It was a cost saving measure I am sure to achieve the $500.00 price point. There is talk that a firmware update will add this to current HD-A1/XA1 players, but who knows.

Quote:

But here is my more important point (which will also serve to answer question two), that I believe Strawberry was trying to hit on as well...

People are using the lack of 1080p sets and "little" improvement 1080p offers over 1080i, as a reason to downplay the feature. However, the same people are acting as if people have the quality audio equipment to showcase these new audio codecs. And further still, even be able to appreciate the difference. If someone isn't able to tell the difference between 1080p and 1080i de-interlaced, what makes people believe they could tell the difference between Dolby Digital and DD+?

Yes, my current 5.1 system (thanks to the analog) inputs would receive the decoded signal, but it's also an old 350 watt setup from Phillips. Secondly, the HD-DVD players are not fully supporting the codecs either (only two channels to my knowledge), so the benefit of the audio is being reduced even more.

So, all I'm saying is, to each their own. If you want 1080p "now," go with a Blu-ray player. If you want a more supported HD audio codec, go with HD-DVD. But I don't believe it's fair to downplay the importance of 1080p considering HD audio codecs are in the same boat.

If you already have a HDTV that doesn not accept 1080p inputs which we agree is about 99.9% of them. Why not get what you can without spending more money? I imagine that ANY of the 2 or 3 Gen players will be much cheaper in 1-3 years WHEN 1080p really IS common. It isn't common now, and will be in the mionority for several years to come.

What HDTV do you have now? I imagine that your HDTV is probably a 720p or 1080i set if you bought it at least over a year ago. In that case, 1080p is truly meaningless for you as it is for me.

HDMI Fantastic · 05-25-2006, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordGamer

i.
If someone isn't able to tell the difference between 1080p and 1080i de-interlaced, what makes people believe they could tell the difference between Dolby Digital and DD+?

Yes, my current 5.1 system (thanks to the analog) inputs would receive the decoded signal, but it's also an old 350 watt setup from Phillips. Secondly, the HD-DVD players are not fully supporting the codecs either (only two channels to my knowledge), so the benefit of the audio is being reduced even more.

HD HDV Player's:
DD PLUS is supported in all it's 5.1 glory. DD True HD is only 2 channel.I, for one, can tell a HUGE difference between DD+ and regular DD.No surprise there-it's what-triple the bit rate?

DTS HD is nowhere to be found on HD DVD or BluRay. The studios aren't even supporting regular DTS in the releases for either format. At the end of the credits for Rumour Has It, it shows DTS was part of the original movie, but it isn't on the disc.

µCOM-4 · 05-25-2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordGamer

We only need one user tag, HD Guru.

Ok Elvis...

Revolv · 05-25-2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordGamer

First off, ditto what Berry said. Waiting a little while would get you the most "bang for your buck," as well as getting a better status on the state of how the formats are doing. Personally, I wouldn't buy either player till at least this holiday season. But to each their own.

Believe me, the tech talk is confusing to most. And I for one, don't claim to know all the details. Just keep in mind, technical, doesn't mean real world. So, just because it seems great on a tech sheet, doesn't mean it will translate to your eyes and ears. Also, these players are first generation technology, with many advancements to come.

As for... Do I have to buy a new receiver to get any audio at all out of the BD?

No, your current receiver would be fine and will support the current big audio codecs (so you will get audio). There are three new HD audio codecs...two from Dolby (Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD) and a lesser popular one from DTS (DTS-HD).

NONE of the HD players (from either camp), fully support these new audio codecs. Later players should support the codecs much better. Now before anyone jumps up and down, currently the HD-DVD player do support them better than the BR ones.

Another OUTright lie.

The HD DVD players FULLY support DD+ audio. In fact, because DD+ decoding is MANDATORY in the HD DVD player specs, the DD+ streams on HD DVD don't even have a DD legacy core (on Bluray the DD legacy core is required, because Bluray players can't decode DD+).

Another difference -

on Bluray, DD+ (assuming one day the 2nd or 3rd generation BD players CAN even decode it) runs at a maximum datarate of 1.7 Mbps.

But on HD DVD the DD+ runs at 3 Mbps minimum, and up to a maximum of 6 Mbps.

This sound is much better on HD DVD.

Stop chatting nonsense.

And so what if TruHD on HD DVD players is only 2 channel right now - that's still 2 more than Bluray players. At least some of the discs coming out on HD DVD have 5.1 TruHD on the disc.

It's on the discs because they made it mandatory or the players and the studios realized it would be worth the trouble. Good luck getting Tru HD tracks on Bluray discs...

EDIT- Oh and before you reply - here - http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...ital_plus.html and here http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech...DDPlus_FAQ.pdf

Revolv · 05-25-2006, 08:59 PM

And these petitions rdjam put up on avsforums make for some very interesting reading....

BY the way, everyone should sign these and pass them on to their friends and other sites also.

They are petitioning Disney and Lions Gate to support HD DVD since Bluray is having some major problems getting the discs working.

the Disney one is at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/193126108

and the Lions Gate one is at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/665800521

Very stimulating reading indeed !

**bruceames** · 05-25-2006, 09:36 PM

Whoa! This petition echos my sentiments exactly. I have already signed both and have passed the links on to another forum. Thanks for sharing both the links and your vast knowledge on both audio and video. My interest in the technical side has been kindled by the incredible performance of the HD-A1.

drock912001 · 05-26-2006, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolv

And these petitions rdjam put up on avsforums make for some very interesting reading....

BY the way, everyone should sign these and pass them on to their friends and other sites also.

They are petitioning Disney and Lions Gate to support HD DVD since Bluray is having some major problems getting the discs working.

the Disney one is at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/193126108

and the Lions Gate one is at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/665800521

Very stimulating reading indeed !

The same problems and delays hd-dvd had before launch.We get it both of you have 2 of the 6,000 Toshiba's that's avaible.

Quote:

Whoa! This petition echos my sentiments exactly. I have already signed both and have passed the links on to another forum. Thanks for sharing both the links and your vast knowledge on both audio and video. My interest in the technical side has been kindled by the incredible performance of the HD-A1.

Find it cute 2 early adopters are shooting off about nothing.This ain't 8-track vs. cassettes so this will be a long drawn out battle.

Quote:

Even though Blu-ray won't be released for anther few months it already has more movies pre-released than HD-DVD. Not only that but the average price of the movies is LESS than HD-DVD. I thought that HD-DVD movies are suppose to be less?

There will be more players to chose from in the Blu-ray format.HD only has Toshiba and RCA.2 of the best electronics manufacturers.If you believe that.

Quote:

It's Blu-ray's problem that they have a range of players coming out with a wide variety of price and quality? From PS3 to Pioneer it seems they've decided to cater to most levels of spending power. BTW It is interesting that Tosh didn't even release the cheaper player in Japan...

This is how good marketing works.

Quote:

I've got news for you, Blu-ray products will be priced competitively when the need arises. Do you really think 10,000 sales of HD DVD players means anything in the real world? By year's end you're going to see just how competitive Blu-ray supporting companies can be. You'd be pretty foolish to think they'll keep their pricing higher than HD DVD when this war gets going. These companies are all in it to win. Don't kid yourself.

Very valid points regardless of which 1 you support.The funny thing is Toshiba has a hand in the PS3 cell processor and SONY is 1 of the founding members of the dvd forum.

Quote:

A couple of points.

First, ultimately, it's not the cost of the players that's an issue but the cost and number of titles available that will win the race. New formats ALWAYS cost more initially but the prices drop pretty fast once production gets going. From the fact that Blu-ray has more titles available PRE-launch that HD-DVD has POST-launch and that Blu-ray titles are CHEAPER, it doesn't look good for HD-DVD thus far. I mean, wasn't the appeal of the format that it suppose to be cheaper all around?

Quote:

Second, if you're going to spend around $500 wouldn't you rather have a machine that does more than one thing? A PS3 will not only play movies but it will also be the hottest gaming machine out there. Given the choice, I can't believe that anyone will choose the lesser of the value proposition there. The average joe, when given a choice between a HD-DVD that only plays movies and a PS3 that will play movies AND the latest games for about the same price point, which do you think he would choose?

NUFF SAID.

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05-25-2006, 09:03 AM	#76
Cygnus The Bringer of Balance Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 11,350	PS3 is being released mid November.

05-25-2006, 09:56 AM	#78
cousin eddie $hitter was full Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 316	Actually, I meant I would prefer a standalone player instead of the PS3. As far as which format, that is a difficult question. All things being equal, (ie: release dates and price) I would have probably bought a BD player. Why? Because I have read that those who have actually seen PQ on a BD player have said it is far and away a better picture. I wish I could remember where I read that, but it has escaped me. All of that being said, I think I will buy the HD-DVD player. For the reasons stated in my previous post. And because I am a little concerned about the MPEG-2 talk I read earlier. One more thing though. because I want to make sure I understand. Do I have to buy a new receiver to get any audio at all out of the BD? These may sound like stupid questions but it is sometimes difficult to keep up with what everyone is talking about.

05-25-2006, 08:59 PM	#88
Revolv HD Technophile Join Date: May 2006 Location: UK Age: 47 Posts: 463	And these petitions rdjam put up on avsforums make for some very interesting reading.... BY the way, everyone should sign these and pass them on to their friends and other sites also. They are petitioning Disney and Lions Gate to support HD DVD since Bluray is having some major problems getting the discs working. the Disney one is at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/193126108 and the Lions Gate one is at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/665800521 Very stimulating reading indeed !

05-25-2006, 09:36 PM	#89
bruceames Super Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Novato, CA Posts: 15,372	Whoa! This petition echos my sentiments exactly. I have already signed both and have passed the links on to another forum. Thanks for sharing both the links and your vast knowledge on both audio and video. My interest in the technical side has been kindled by the incredible performance of the HD-A1.