Blu-Ray player: will it sale?

crazyal · 05-24-2006, 11:59 PM

Wow, I actually read all these posts. I found it very entertaining to say the least. I would like to say, just my opinion, if Samsung releases a hybrid player then in my eyes they have one foot in each camp. Sorry but if you put a Chevy engine into a Ford then you are no longer strickly in the blue oval camp.

I wonder just how many of the new PS3s sold will ever get a HD movie put into them. My guess has been and still is the gaming portion is what's going to sell and the BD player is just an added feature.

I like Sony and I have a Sony HD TV but I want a real player not a gaming machine. I'll spend the extra bucks if they can give me something for my money, better selection of movies comes to mind. Notice I didn't quote numbers about shipping or potential shipping or dates, no DD+ or any of that because I don't care. I'm going to wait until they have been out a year and all the hype dies down then I'll buy a hybrid if they are out, if not I might wait another year. Loving HD doesn't have to mean jumping at the first offering from either side.

**bruceames** · 05-25-2006, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyal

Loving HD doesn't have to mean jumping at the first offering from either side.

It did for me. Watch out for the "nowsville" syndrome

PFC5 · 05-25-2006, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strawberry

For all we know, that "some time in the future" may only be a few months from now. We only have the full spec sheet for the Samsung and the Sony as of right now, is that correct? There are BR players yet to be released this year from Pioneer, Panasonic, Philips, LG, Sharp and Mistsubishi, and a newer Samsung hybrid as well. We can speculate about what features they'll have, but we won't know until we know. Right now, we don't.

I haven't seen a spec sheet for the Pioneer yet, but even BR fans have been appalled that for the list price of $1,800.00 they are not including any HD decoders in their machine from what has been released. Mitsubishi is a HD-DVD camp mfg I believe, not a BR camp mfg. To my knowledge Sharp & Philips have not even announced a shipping date for a player yet. Panasonic has not released a spec sheet to my knowledge, but is DEFINATELY in the BR camp exclusively currently. BTW, panny unit will not play CDs, and neither will the Sony, but the Samsung will)

LG had a press release that they were pulling their BR player and concentrating on a universal player 2 months ago. I have heard rumor that they caved to pressure and ARE releasing a BR player now. Samsung announced the first ACTUAL BR player (delayed) release for I think 6/25/06 now, but have not commented on a hybrid player since the original press release.

Sony will release on 8/15/06 last I heard and again will not be able to play CDs.

Panasonic will release in mid September at a price of $1,200.00 if I remember correctly.

No info on WHEN Sharp or Philips will release a BD player, and Mits hasn't announced ANY player in either format to my knowledge.

Also, Denon, Yamaha, Harmon Kardon, et al have not even stated where they stand, but if they can make players at anywhere near 1/2 the cost, they could make inroads in market share with HD-DVD player.

Quote:

Absolutely- I agree. Cost is definitely the major factor for Sony and Samsung leaving native decoding support for the new audio codecs out of their initial players. Cost is also HD-DVD's biggest advantage- and could well be the determining factor in this thing- I'm not shy about pointing this out. What's killing me is that these early A-1 adopters that have sprung up around here recently refuse to acknowledge the idea that the BR camp has things going for it as well. The BR camp has more studio muscle behind it, a lot more manufacturing support behind it, and, probably most importantly, brand recognition. Wait a few months until all of the BR manufacturers have players out in the marketplace. Look at the stand-alone player market and think of it in terms of advertising budget- Toshiba and Sanyo are basically going head-to-head with an 8-headed marketing monster, and they can't outspend them all. There's a real chance that this could end up meaning that a year from now we'll have a general public that's been much more exposed to BR than they have to HD-DVD. You may not think that this matters, but it does. When it comes to the big national brands, the ones that spend more on advertising tend to record better sales than the competition. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it is a very strong trend.

That is a good point about the COMBINED advertising muscle, but in my opinion, they will really need it when they are selling something for 2-3 times the money for virtually the same expected PQ, and initially less SQ. You did leave out MS, HP & Intel on the HD-DVD side of the advertising equation.

MS & Intel are no stranger to marketing finese and HUGE ad budgets in anyone's view. Do you have a Intel inside?

HP is in both camps, but they might be just keeping their foot in the door with BR IMO. They are first and foremost a HUGE computer company (that actually makes many of their components) and they are moving to the side some of the biggest players are on (MS/Intel). You could say that Dell is the biggest PC mfg, but they are just the largest assembler/seller. They don't make anything themselves for the most part. They just rebadge their printers, etc. from other mfgs.

Quote:

That's it- nothing more, nothing less. Doesn't mean that BR will win out, but it is something that Toshiba will have to find a way to overcome, much as the BR camp will have to find a way to get people to pay for their more expensive technology vs. that of HD-DVD, or to even take the leap up from standard DVD.

TBD - nuff said here, except if BR won quickly or never had a competitor, they would either be subsidizing less or not at all, the additional mfg costs of the movie discs on their format. They do not have the cash from reading their financials to sustain this for very long, especially being a publically traded company with investors. BD fans should thank Toshiba for this war because at the least they will be saving money because of it, just like HD-DVD fans are.

Quote:

I agree with you that not many people can benefit from 1080p output right now- I just don't think that any more people can benefit from the new audio codecs- not without making serious upgrades to their speaker systems and amps. That may not be the case for you, but you're the exception to a trend. The same could be said for someone who just spent a ton of money on an HD display that accepts 1080p 24 input.

I do not have a very amazing system (compared to many) as you can see from my signature, but I like it a lot. I care MORE about the audio myself which is why I have had a decent HT sound system for YEARS before I even got a HDTV. I bet there are many times more people with a HT sound system than people with a HDTV at this point. The majority are probably not as "decent" as mine, but they WILL be good enough to hear a difference in SQ with the HD audio formats included in HD-DVD players.

My point is anyone who has a receiver that is 4 years old or newer CAN utilize these new HD audio formats with what they have NOW. Others can get a system that will utilize these HD audio formats with a new $400-600.00 system at todays prices. For BD players they have to spend (most likely) over $1,200.00 for a new receiver (WHEN THEY COME OUT) and that doesn't even count the cost of the speakers.

Let's do the math. Worst case scenario for HD-DVD in regards to HD audio formats being utilized at the cheapest prices is:

HD-DVD player - $ 500.00
1ST HT system..... 400.00
HDTV................... 900.00
Total cost........$1,800.00 to have it all in a COMPLETE entry level system.

This is worst case, but if they already have a HDTV & HT sound sustem under 5 years old the cost is only $500.00 to complete the system with State Of The Art sound formats.

Blu-ray worst case scenario for the same minimum system:

PS3 (min.needs to be HDMI model).. $ 600.00 Will be impossible to get at first, since the gamers will buy most units.
1st HT system (req. expensive rec.)$1600.00
HDTV.............................................. $ 900.00
Total minimum total system cost....$3100.00

That is a minimum system from scratch. I think the first year it will probably be hard to get a HD decoding HDMI 1.3 receiver for an extra $1,200.00 cost myself. It could be 2 years before the HD audio decoders make it into a $1,000.00 receiver with HDMI 1.3 IMO.

I also used the lowest announced price for a PS3 with HDMI which we all know would be required when the studios require it to get HD PQ. It doesn't make sense to save $100.00 and potentially lose the HD PQ if ICT gets activated. When the war is over it most likely WILL get turned on at the latest by the studios IMO.

You are looking at $1,300.00 (72%) MORE to build a minimum system from scratch with Blu-ray vs HD-DVD. Now if they already have the HDTV the increased cost of BR is 144% more vs HD-DVD.

If you use the cheapest REAL BD player to do the comparison you can add at least 45% more to that increased cost.

I know I am not ordinary [5 variously priced (3 cheapos for the kids) HT systems in my house], but I bet there are more HT sound systems than there are HDTVs in USA homes. A lot of them are double duty HT stereo systems since most people buy HT receivers over stereo receivers currently. I think if people who already have a HT sound system look at the costs of the better SQ they will find it harder to go with BD players. Do not forget that PS3 will not have analog outputs or decoders either. They will have the added demand of BD movie player customers to compete with the initial fanatic gamers who will pay any price for the PS3. This will make them VERY hard to find at their list prices IMO.

Remember, probably less than 25% of the PS3 will even be used on HDTVs, never mind those owners caring much about movies on the remaining 25%. I would think most people will not want to fight with Johnny over use of the only HDTV in the house when he wants to spend all day playing games with his PS3.

Cornbread · 05-25-2006, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strawberry

Actually, my point was that most people's audio setup is not good enough for them to discern the difference between DD or DTS and the new formats. First and foremost- many people still listen to their sound piped directly through their TV, regardless of what we think of it.

That is just not true, almost everyone that would pay $2000-$3000 for an HDTV and another $500 for an HD-DVD player will have at least a basic surround sound system with at least 2 fronts and a center channel speaker and anyone with even a basic low budget system can and will enjoy the benefits of the new sound.

Yes I have exaggerated (mostly jokingly) and even been wrong due to lack of knowledge in the past and I am sorry that I attacked you so directly, but what was so appalling is you didn't exaggerate or say something by mistake, you said an outright lie that you knew darn good and well was false. You are a very smart guy and you know that people don't need a new receiver and new speakers to enjoy the 5.1 output of the new audio codecs. Heck my 10 year old Dolby Pro Logic receiver and 1970s era speakers that I have in the basement would work just fine and you could easily tell the difference of the improved sound. Speaker technology hasn't changed much in 40 years, the original Klipsch horn speaker introduced in 1963 has been tweaked over the years but is still pretty much the same. I enjoy a healthy debate, just keep it real.

Revolv · 05-25-2006, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordGamer

Another example... Say that no HD-DVD players will output 1080p, but Sony's players will. An HD-DVD fanboy freaks out and says how 1080p isn't important, yet HD audio codecs are. To me (being rational), that's one negative and positive for each camp. But you shouldn't down play the 1080p, simply because your team can't do it and in the same line, brag about something your team can do that the other can't.

Those are not the same. 1080i60 carries the full image data from 1080p24 disc. 1080p televisions can deinterlace it back to the original imgage.

Not being able to decode the advanced audio is not rectifiable

Revolv · 05-25-2006, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruceames

I think BR sales will be surprisingly brisk. You can bet most everybody with a 1080p tv will either get one or will try to get one. People's attitudes about buying can take a dramatic shift once the idea gets implanted that they can have it now. I've heard some crazy stories about people desperate, like 5 years old kids, wanting the Tosh players. If the BR reviews are good there will be lots of BR people buying, then finding there keyboard works again and backing you poor guys up with a pent-up vengeance. For now though, after reading this thread, I can see why you'd wanna take a breather. Anyway good luck!

Yes

that may happen - but what if the BR players and movies don't get good reviews...? Motion artifacting? Read errors? Bad discs? No advanced audio?

Hmmm...

LordGamer · 05-25-2006, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolv

Those are not the same. 1080i60 carries the full image data from 1080p24 disc. 1080p televisions can deinterlace it back to the original imgage.

Not being able to decode the advanced audio is not rectifiable

This is what I'm talking about, folks. That quote is a fanboy at work. Keeping it simple...

Question: Does Blu-ray players output 1080p?
Answer: Yes.

Question: Does HD-DVD players output 1080p?
Answer: No.
-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by strawberry

I may have to take a short leave of absence for a month or two after the BR launch. I don't think I'll be able to wade through the garbage around here- it's already nigh impossible.

I believe I'm going to join you. I figure about a month...mid-June to mid-July. If I do pop up, it probably won't be in the HD players or disc forums. I just hope any newcomers or browsers will be able to decipher through all the "hatin'" and fanboy dung.

Revolv · 05-25-2006, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordGamer

This is what I'm talking about, folks. That quote is a fanboy at work. Keeping it simple...

Question: Does Blu-ray players output 1080p?
Answer: Yes.

Question: Does HD-DVD players output 1080p?
Answer: No.
-----

I believe I'm going to join you. I figure about a month...mid-June to mid-July. If I do pop up, it probably won't be in the HD players or disc forums. I just hope any newcomers or browsers will be able to decipher through all the "hatin'" and fanboy dung.

It's a shame that you always play games with words.

You compared the 1080p issue with the audio issue, saying they were the same thing and I pointed out why they weren't, because the BD machines can't "read" and decode the advanced codecs to begins with, let alone transmit it, let alone reconstruct it.

I'm losing respect for the types of discussions that are typical with you. You point fingers and accuse everyone else who contradicts you in any way of being a "fanboy" and untruthful. Yet you are actually the one who takes that approach.

You've dishonestly misrepresented a number of issues here - one only has to read this thread from the beginning to get a good idea of how many things have been corrected, and you've admitted nothing yet - and never will.

Sony's own site (and Samsungs) clearly state that their players cannot decode DD+, TruHD or DTS-HD (which is what I OBviously meant by "handle") they can only decode the core DD and DTS legacy streams. Your posts insisted that they could - and the discussion went for ages until I posted the proof from Sony's site. You still haven't admitted you're wrong, instead insisting that I am playing with word - which is actually all YOU do).

To say that 1080i60 is not a huge issue is completely accurate. You want to make it sound like a cover-up. I feed this into a Video processor anyway before sending to a projector at full 1080p - not one bit of info is lost. Most 1080p displays cannot accept 1080p input - and you also know this is true. 1080p sets can deinterlace the 1080p60 to 1080p and keep every line of the original 1080p24 image frames, since none of the data is left out in the transmission. In fact, on average, each 5th full 1080p24 frame could be transmitted twice over 1080o60.

You know the facts, but you sit there trying to confuse eveyone. This is not a helpful approach to a visitor to this site trying to get accurate info.

Trying posting some accurate info that can withstand the attacks you've subjected mine to.

strawberry · 05-25-2006, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Mitsubishi is a HD-DVD camp mfg I believe, not a BR camp mfg.

Actually, Mits is one of the longest-standing members of the BR camp, and they showed a player at CES in Jan., which they said would be out in 2006.

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-1...cle-14839.html
http://news.com.com/2300-1041_3-6061895-8.html

All of the other brands I mentioned either showed players off at CES, or have announced them since- but dates and specs are still forthcoming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

That is a good point about the COMBINED advertising muscle, but in my opinion, they will really need it when they are selling something for 2-3 times the money for virtually the same expected PQ, and initially less SQ. You did leave out MS, HP & Intel on the HD-DVD side of the advertising equation.

MS and Intel won't be manufacturing players and don't stand to reap benefits in the form of liscensing fees, so I wouldn't expect them to be pouring in the kind of money that the actual manufacturing members of both camps are going to be putting in. I didn't mention HP because, a.) I was talking about set-top players, which are the real key to this battle early on, (notice that I didn't mention Dell or Apple either) and b.) they're in both camps.

Sony will likely outspend the entire HD-DVD camp by itself. It may not matter in the end, but it's something that HD-DVD will have to fight through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

MS & Intel are no stranger to marketing finese and HUGE ad budgets in anyone's view. Do you have a Intel inside?

MS and Intel don't have the incentive to spend what Toshiba, Sony, Matsushita, Samsung, and NEC are going to be spending- there's nowhere near as much to lose or to gain for them. You'll see some marketing tie-ins here and there- but that'll be about it- you're not going to see MS producing HD-DVD commercials and paying to have them run on national TV. They have their own markets and their own fish to fry in 2007.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

I do not have a very amazing system (compared to many) as you can see from my signature, but I like it a lot. I care MORE about the audio myself which is why I have had a decent HT sound system for YEARS before I even got a HDTV. I bet there are many times more people with a HT sound system than people with a HDTV at this point. The majority are probably not as "decent" as mine, but they WILL be good enough to hear a difference in SQ with the HD audio formats included in HD-DVD players.

This is probably hard to quantify, and it's all empirical, (I don't think a hard statistic exists anywhere for this type of thing) but I have been in a lot more homes with HD displays than I have with decent 5.1 systems. Considering the fact that half of the 16 million homes with HD displays aren't being fed HD programming because of the ignorance of their owners- I hardly think that 97% of people are even aware of the new HD codecs, and they probably wouldn't care if they did know. I'm just not seeing how this is going to be a major selling point any time soon.

Again- I can see why this issue is important to some of us, but this one's not a big deal to many other people.

LordGamer · 05-25-2006, 07:38 AM

HD Gu...I mean, Revolv. Just please answer me the following questions, with a simple yes or no answer...

Are the Blu-ray players able to output 1080p?

Are the HD-DVD players able to output 1080p?

Revolv · 05-25-2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordGamer

HD Gu...I mean, Revolv. Just please answer me the following questions, with a simple yes or no answer...

Are the Blu-ray players able to output 1080p?

Are the HD-DVD players able to output 1080p?

After you admit you were wrong.

Again - you are simply trying to retreat to a "safe spot" that you know the answer to. I have never made that item a point of debate, but you are trying to make it the only point now - JUST to distract from the other more important points that you chose to argue about and were wrong on.

Cheers - case closed.

LordGamer · 05-25-2006, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolv

After you admit you were wrong.

Again - you are simply trying to retreat to a "safe spot" that you know the answer to. I have never made that item a point of debate, but you are trying to make it the only point now - JUST to distract from the other more important points that you chose to argue about and were wrong on.

Cheers - case closed.

Wrong about what? I will simplify this even more for you so you may bow out gracefully...

True or False

i. HD-DVD players currently support HD audio codecs better than Blu-ray players. True or False?

ii. Blu-ray players output 1080p, but HD-DVD players currently do not. True or False?

µCOM-4 · 05-25-2006, 08:17 AM

Will BR movies use MPEG2?
Will BR movies be 25GB?
Will ALL BR players output 1080p?

LordGamer · 05-25-2006, 08:21 AM

We only need one user tag, HD Guru.

cousin eddie · 05-25-2006, 08:56 AM

QUOTE

"But in regards to all this HD-DVD is here now or not being able to wait for BR...it's scheduled to release next month. We aren't talking next year or something. So, while price is a valid concern (though the cheapest HD-DVD player is $500, the same price as the cheapest PS3, for clarification), no one should be using the time excuse, considering you're about to drop $500+ on new hardware."

Wait a minute, I thought the PS3 was not going to be out until the September/October time frame. I would probably be willing to pay an extra $100 if I could get a BD next month. Are you talking about the BD players? Those are supposed to be in the $800 to $1000 range aren't they? I just can't afford to spend another $200 to $500 on a standalone player, although that is what I would prefer to have.

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05-24-2006, 11:59 PM	#61
crazyal Smarter than the ave bear Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,330	Wow, I actually read all these posts. I found it very entertaining to say the least. I would like to say, just my opinion, if Samsung releases a hybrid player then in my eyes they have one foot in each camp. Sorry but if you put a Chevy engine into a Ford then you are no longer strickly in the blue oval camp. I wonder just how many of the new PS3s sold will ever get a HD movie put into them. My guess has been and still is the gaming portion is what's going to sell and the BD player is just an added feature. I like Sony and I have a Sony HD TV but I want a real player not a gaming machine. I'll spend the extra bucks if they can give me something for my money, better selection of movies comes to mind. Notice I didn't quote numbers about shipping or potential shipping or dates, no DD+ or any of that because I don't care. I'm going to wait until they have been out a year and all the hype dies down then I'll buy a hybrid if they are out, if not I might wait another year. Loving HD doesn't have to mean jumping at the first offering from either side.

05-25-2006, 07:38 AM	#70
LordGamer Lord of Gaming Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,796	HD Gu...I mean, Revolv. Just please answer me the following questions, with a simple yes or no answer... Are the Blu-ray players able to output 1080p? Are the HD-DVD players able to output 1080p?

05-25-2006, 08:17 AM	#73
µCOM-4 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 699	Will BR movies use MPEG2? Will BR movies be 25GB? Will ALL BR players output 1080p?

05-25-2006, 08:21 AM	#74
LordGamer Lord of Gaming Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,796	We only need one user tag, HD Guru.

05-25-2006, 08:56 AM	#75
cousin eddie $hitter was full Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 316	QUOTE "But in regards to all this HD-DVD is here now or not being able to wait for BR...it's scheduled to release next month. We aren't talking next year or something. So, while price is a valid concern (though the cheapest HD-DVD player is $500, the same price as the cheapest PS3, for clarification), no one should be using the time excuse, considering you're about to drop $500+ on new hardware." Wait a minute, I thought the PS3 was not going to be out until the September/October time frame. I would probably be willing to pay an extra $100 if I could get a BD next month. Are you talking about the BD players? Those are supposed to be in the $800 to $1000 range aren't they? I just can't afford to spend another $200 to $500 on a standalone player, although that is what I would prefer to have.