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Old 05-24-2006, 11:12 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordGamer
What are you, an HD super hero? How about starting by providing correct information; regardless, if it plays in your HD-DVD favor or not.
Yeah - I like that

The info was correct - you're only arguing because you yourself don't like it.

BTW - see the Sony Style website extract above if you don't believe me yet.

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...=feature&var2=
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Old 05-24-2006, 11:21 AM   #32
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You took the bait.

Back to the matter... would you like to answer my two questions...

i. Where are you getting the 25,000 figure?
ii. What is your point about the base PS3 not having HDMI output built-in?
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Old 05-24-2006, 11:37 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Revolv
Strawberry - I will provide this link from SONY's own website to illustrate exactly the point I have made.
OK- this seems like a shift in gear from your previous response from the topic:

"Wrong again - the Sony does DD+ (per the site) and also claims to do DTS-HD but does not handle TruHD according to the specs."

It's a little misleading to say that because a given player doesn't decode an audio format that it doesn't support it- it's not like it won't still pass it through to your A/V recvr.

Yes, I'm aware that only expensive A/V recvr's. will handle the new audio formats- that will change with time, though- and there will be BR players that offer built-in decoding, it's just that Sony/Matsushita aren't mandating it.

What's funny is that you and LG got off onto this tangent because you were talking about the features of the players, and said that 1080p being absent from the HD-DVD side has little impact, because most people don't have a display that can take full advantage of it, and then went on to talk about the new Audio formats as if there are any more home theater enthusiasts out there that have the speakers and amps to take full advantage of them regardless of whether or not their given player can perform the decoding.
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Old 05-24-2006, 11:43 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberry
What's funny is that you and LG got off onto this tangent because you were talking about the features of the players, and said that 1080p being absent from the HD-DVD side has little impact, because most people don't have a display that can take full advantage of it, and then went on to talk about the new Audio formats as if there are any more home theater enthusiasts out there that have the speakers and amps to take full advantage of them regardless of whether or not their given player can perform the decoding.
Thank you. I was going to say something along those lines, but didn't want to go around in circles with the audio codec debate. Furthermore, the lack of 1080p support on HD-DVD's end, would cancel them out.

There have been many 1080p sets hitting the market as of late, not to mention, by the time either one of these formats is even remotely mainstream, 1080p sets will easily be common.
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Old 05-24-2006, 12:03 PM   #35
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Strawberry and LordGamer -

The points I have stated are correct.

Now that I have provided the proof from Sony's own site, the 1080p issue comes up again because it's a "safe zone"

I said that these BD players can't decode DD+ and TruHD and DTS-HD - they can only decode the legacy "core" streams of DD and DTS - which is accurate and factual - and proven, now, despite the name calling. Rather than get into a circular discussion on semantics (which is obviously what you are trying to do) just accept it as fact - which it is.

The 25,000 figure, like much info on the forums, is based on insider info - feel free to do a search for that number on this site and AVS.

HDMI is needed to guarantee that you'll be able to play hi def discs at full 1080 res in the future, when ICT is activated. There are rumours that it won't be implemented next year, and there are rumours that it will - but only HDMI output guarantees that an owner won't be negatively afected.

Also, HDMI is needed to get the full hi res audio from the advanced audio codecs, even L-PCM - optical and coax connectors can't handle the bandwidth - and the PS3 doesn't have multichannel analog outputs.

Any other questions, class
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Old 05-24-2006, 12:43 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolv
Now that I have provided the proof from Sony's own site, the 1080p issue comes up again because it's a "safe zone"
Actually- you first claimed that there was nothing on Sony's site about True HD and seemed quite happy to leave it at that- then you changed your tune only after being pressed. And the 1080p issue came up again because it's what prompted you to bring up the audio decoding subject in the first place. The point I made about neither feature being of particular use for the overwhelming majority of home theater owners must have been a good one, since you dodged it entirely and posted this instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolv
The 25,000 figure, like much info on the forums, is based on insider info
That's the funny thing about insider info in this industry- it has a tendency to be unreliable, especially when it's in conflict with published reports from highly visible online news sources. If I had a nickel for every time I'd seen bold predictions and assumptions at AVS turn out to be garbage, I'd buy one of these players this year.

Look- you can pretend to be some great "teacher" if it makes you feel better- but all I'm seeing out of you is an early adopter that rushed out and bought an A1, and is now willing to do whatever he has to in order to justify his purchase both to himself and others. Yes- some of what you post is factual, but it's mixed in with assumptions and predictions and "insider info"- the problem is that you present it all the same way- as if it's fact. Not good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolv
Any other questions, class
No- there never were any.
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Old 05-24-2006, 12:59 PM   #37
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I am curious - how many people will end up reading this discussion? One of the moderators should be able to provide the number of people viewing the thread. I suspect that the numbers are small. At least not large enough to justify the heat and venom I am seeing in the thread.

A few observations:
- The existing HD-DVD players AND the to be released BD-DVD players are first generation. There will be problems that will be corrected in subsequent releases.

- HD-DVD is still a newborn baby and BD-DVD hasn't been born yet. Statistics are meaningless till we have some more history under our belt.

- Continuing my baby analogy, the chances of either of these formats growing up to adulthood is probably slim. The biggest factor working against them is the fact that only 15% or so of the households have HD televisions. The second nail in the coffin is this stupid format war.

- A lot of what is being heatedly argued over is of interest only to a narrow segment of this forum. I don't have a 1080p television, it has a DVI connection, my reciever doesn't have a HDMI connection. Most of this forum (which is probably technologically ahead of the general population) is not really affected AT THIS TIME by 1080p or the new sound options.

Here is what I care about:
- When will someone come out with a reasonably priced universal player, or when will the war be over so I can buy high def DVDs instead of regular DVDs?
- Will I get a high def picture on my DVI set if the flag is eventually turned on by the studios?

Here is what I don't care about:
- I don't care which format wins, as long as we still have high def DVDs when the dust settles.
- I don't care what the first generation players will or not do, since I will not be buying a first generation player.
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:01 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by SLedford
I am curious - how many people will end up reading this discussion? One of the moderators should be able to provide the number of people viewing the thread. I suspect that the numbers are small. At least not large enough to justify the heat and venom I am seeing in the thread.

A few observations:
- The existing HD-DVD players AND the to be released BD-DVD players are first generation. There will be problems that will be corrected in subsequent releases.

- HD-DVD is still a newborn baby and BD-DVD hasn't been born yet. Statistics are meaningless till we have some more history under our belt.

- Continuing my baby analogy, the chances of either of these formats growing up to adulthood is probably slim. The biggest factor working against them is the fact that only 15% or so of the households have HD televisions. The second nail in the coffin is this stupid format war.

- A lot of what is being heatedly argued over is of interest only to a narrow segment of this forum. I don't have a 1080p television, it has a DVI connection, my reciever doesn't have a HDMI connection. Most of this forum (which is probably technologically ahead of the general population) is not really affected AT THIS TIME by 1080p or the new sound options.

Here is what I care about:
- When will someone come out with a reasonably priced universal player, or when will the war be over so I can buy high def DVDs instead of regular DVDs?
- Will I get a high def picture on my DVI set if the flag is eventually turned on by the studios?

Here is what I don't care about:
- I don't care which format wins, as long as we still have high def DVDs when the dust settles.
- I don't care what the first generation players will or not do, since I will not be buying a first generation player.
Sorry, sir. This thread is for fools only. No common sense and important questions allowed.
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:24 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLedford
I am curious - how many people will end up reading this discussion? One of the moderators should be able to provide the number of people viewing the thread. I suspect that the numbers are small. At least not large enough to justify the heat and venom I am seeing in the thread.
376 views - 297th on a list of 518 threads in this part (High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource > High Definition Hardware > High Definition DVD Players >) of the forum - Blu-Ray player: will it sale? dontknowjack posts 38 --- views 376
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Sorry, sir. This thread is for fools only. No common sense and important questions allowed
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:42 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLedford
Will I get a high def picture on my DVI set if the flag is eventually turned on by the studios?
This one can be answered right now without much difficulty. As long as the DVI port on your TV is HDCP compliant, (meaning that it's not just a generic DVI port for display from a PC, for instance) then you'll be able to display HD movies at full resolution from either HD-DVD or BR whether the Image Constraint Token is enabled or not. All you'll need is a DVI to HDMI adapter, which you can pick up for $25 at Radio Shack.
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:45 PM   #41
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I have a question. People keep saying that these HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players are "first generation" and will have problems. Is that true of all technological things out there? Will every machines that first come out will always have problems? I would've thought the companies that create and release these things would have throughly researched it enough to release it without problem. They will not let it out if it was going to have problems. Especially living in the 21st century I thought that would be true. Why is it assumed these machines will have problems when it first comes out? I just don't understand it.
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:56 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberry
OK- this seems like a shift in gear from your previous response from the topic:

It's a little misleading to say that because a given player doesn't decode an audio format that it doesn't support it- it's not like it won't still pass it through to your A/V recvr.
To ME, that is a big point of distinction, since there are abosolutely NO receivers that CAN decode this YET, or until sometime into 2007 I imagine at the earliest. Has anyone seen a press release that ANY receiver mfg are in the process of making receivers with the new HD decodes yet? I haven't heard of ONE press release stating this, and I have been spending too much time checking into it on the forums and there has been NONE reported. They most likely WILL do it, but no one knows WHEN they will and what that price will be, when they do.

This means the advanced HD audio formats will be useless in the BD players even IF they come on the BD movie/music discs. The BD spec does not require ANY HD audio soundtracks/decoders, so this IS a big deal to ME, and many others that have HT sound systems. AFAIK, the first BD discs will not have them on them, but even if they DID, they would only mean that at some future point IF/WHEN the hardware comes that can decode them THEN those HD soundtracks will be useable.

With HD-DVD players you can at least use DD+ NOW at only a $500.00 investment in equipment for the player only. BD will require a higher cost than just the 200-300% increased player cost to hear this HD audio tracks sometime in the FUTURE.

Quote:
Yes, I'm aware that only expensive A/V recvr's. will handle the new audio formats- that will change with time, though- and there will be BR players that offer built-in decoding, it's just that Sony/Matsushita aren't mandating it.
It only seems fair if you are confining the debate to "here and now", how can you insert that there "WILL be BD players with the decoders built-in"? I too think they MIGHT/SHOULD include the decoders, but I think they are left out because then these first BD players would cost 300-400% more than HD-DVD players instead of the current 200-300% they are now and would be pricing themselves out of the market, if they are not already. I think Revolve is saying that on paper the BD specs are great, but what is being delivered is a far cry from the promised specs of what they COULD be. If the war goes on long enough they WILL most likely meet their potential, it is just WHEN they will. How many years will it take? Who knows.

Quote:
What's funny is that you and LG got off onto this tangent because you were talking about the features of the players, and said that 1080p being absent from the HD-DVD side has little impact, because most people don't have a display that can take full advantage of it, and then went on to talk about the new Audio formats as if there are any more home theater enthusiasts out there that have the speakers and amps to take full advantage of them regardless of whether or not their given player can perform the decoding.
I think this shift happened when player to player/spec to spec comparisons started being made. I feel that they all spill together myself, since all this together makes one player more desired than the other. I feel 1080i w/o 1080p output is not a big deal other than bragging rights for all the reasons discussed. maybe 0.2% of current displays can use it, and it will be at least several years before 1080p inputs will even reach 50% of the HDTV market.

To ME, I want what I can use for the next several years NOW more than something else that MAY be better in the future. For $500.00 I get excellent PQ unavailable before in my home NOW, and better SQ than ANYONE has had before in their home NOW, and I do not have to buy any other equipment (other than the HD-DVD player for $500.00) to get it NOW.

Blu-ray on the other hand, will cost $1,000-1,800.00 NOW for probably equal PQ, announced BD players will have less SQ NOW, and to get the better SQ LATER, I would most likely have to spend at least $1,000.00 (maybe $2k+) MORE next year when the new receivers are available.

To me, it is a no brainer since I personally feel that the SQ gets me into the movie more than the PQ. That's why I had great (to me) HT sound long before I bought a HDTV.

In regard to the PS3, sure it has the potential to increase the number of BD players in the home, but there are some problems with looking at this as a huge benefit. I think the following are the limits to this being as big a deal as has been made:

1. I would GUESS, conservatively that less than 1/3 of these will even be in homes that have ANY HDTV nevermind hooked up to one. In houses with 1 HDTV in the main viewing I doubt people will want to fight between movies and games with their kids.

2. They will be very stripped down BD players without HD audio decoders and limited features in PQ & SQ. If not, who would pay a minimum of $400.00+ more over them for a exclusively BD player? If they are fairly full featured AND have the most advanced gaming, doesn't this say the BD player only pricing is gouging the public given the much lower price of the PS3 even taking into account a $300 loss per PS3 that Sony will eat?

3. Even IF the PS3 is a decent BD player, how hard will it be to get one? I imagine even at the record high pricing level they will be as hard to buy for just the initial gaming fanatics, nevermind having people trying to buy them for just/mostly movies too.

At least everyone is being more civil here now. Hopefully it will stay that way since this is not our actual products making or breaking us.
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Old 05-24-2006, 02:56 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberry
Actually- you first claimed that there was nothing on Sony's site about True HD and seemed quite happy to leave it at that- then you changed your tune only after being pressed.
Oh yeah, Where?

<Wrong again - the Sony does DD+ (per the site) and also claims to do DTS-HD but does not handle TruHD according to the specs. Furthermore, the Bluray specs allow players to simply "play" DD+ and DTS-HD by extracting only the DD and DTS legacy core - which is hardly all that "advanced".>

Don't you ever admit that you were wrong? (It's OK, you know... try it)

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That's the funny thing about insider info in this industry- it has a tendency to be unreliable, especially when it's in conflict with published reports from highly visible online news sources. If I had a nickel for every time I'd seen bold predictions and assumptions at AVS turn out to be garbage, I'd buy one of these players this year.
Where do you think the 6,000 number and the 10,000 number came from? The 25,000 was just more recent. (Go on, you can say it just once)

Quote:
Look- you can pretend to be some great "teacher" if it makes you feel better- but all I'm seeing out of you is an early adopter that rushed out and bought an A1, and is now willing to do whatever he has to in order to justify his purchase both to himself and others. Yes- some of what you post is factual, but it's mixed in with assumptions and predictions and "insider info"- the problem is that you present it all the same way- as if it's fact. Not good.
I didn't ask for a fight - all I did was post a correction to a couple of pretty simple errors - and we've now had how many posts back and forth to show that I was correct - and now you're going to hold it against me?
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Old 05-24-2006, 03:02 PM   #44
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It's a little misleading to say that because a given player doesn't decode an audio format that it doesn't support it- it's not like it won't still pass it through to your A/V recvr.
Good point - actually it IS like they won't be able to pass it thru to an A/V Rcvr, because none of the HD DVD or BD 1st Gen players have HDMI 1.3, which is required to pass this on, even if an A/VR could decode it.

That is exactly why it is important to be able to decode it in the player for the next year or so.
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Old 05-24-2006, 03:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by PFC5
With HD-DVD players you can at least use DD+ NOW at only a $500.00 investment in equipment for the player only. BD will require a higher cost than just the 200-300% increased player cost to hear this HD audio tracks sometime in the FUTURE.
For all we know, that "some time in the future" may only be a few months from now. We only have the full spec sheet for the Samsung and the Sony as of right now, is that correct? There are BR players yet to be released this year from Pioneer, Panasonic, Philips, LG, Sharp and Mistsubishi, and a newer Samsung hybrid as well. We can speculate about what features they'll have, but we won't know until we know. Right now, we don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5
I too think they MIGHT/SHOULD include the decoders, but I think they are left out because then these first BD players would cost 300-400% more than HD-DVD players instead of the current 200-300% they are now and would be pricing themselves out of the market
Absolutely- I agree. Cost is definitely the major factor for Sony and Samsung leaving native decoding support for the new audio codecs out of their initial players. Cost is also HD-DVD's biggest advantage- and could well be the determining factor in this thing- I'm not shy about pointing this out. What's killing me is that these early A-1 adopters that have sprung up around here recently refuse to acknowledge the idea that the BR camp has things going for it as well. The BR camp has more studio muscle behind it, a lot more manufacturing support behind it, and, probably most importantly, brand recognition. Wait a few months until all of the BR manufacturers have players out in the marketplace. Look at the stand-alone player market and think of it in terms of advertising budget- Toshiba and Sanyo are basically going head-to-head with an 8-headed marketing monster, and they can't outspend them all. There's a real chance that this could end up meaning that a year from now we'll have a general public that's been much more exposed to BR than they have to HD-DVD. You may not think that this matters, but it does. When it comes to the big national brands, the ones that spend more on advertising tend to record better sales than the competition. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it is a very strong trend.

That's it- nothing more, nothing less. Doesn't mean that BR will win out, but it is something that Toshiba will have to find a way to overcome, much as the BR camp will have to find a way to get people to pay for their more expensive technology vs. that of HD-DVD, or to even take the leap up from standard DVD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5
I think this shift happened when player to player/spec to spec comparisons started being made. I feel that they all spill together myself, since all this together makes one player more desired than the other. I feel 1080i w/o 1080p output is not a big deal other than bragging rights for all the reasons discussed. maybe 0.2% of current displays can use it, and it will be at least several years before 1080p inputs will even reach 50% of the HDTV market.
I agree with you that not many people can benefit from 1080p output right now- I just don't think that any more people can benefit from the new audio codecs- not without making serious upgrades to their speaker systems and amps. That may not be the case for you, but you're the exception to a trend. The same could be said for someone who just spent a ton of money on an HD display that accepts 1080p 24 input.
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