HD-DVD to launch on time.

strawberry · 02-17-2006, 12:56 PM

It's a strange and funny feeling to be continually backing up HD Guru, (or whatever his user name is this month...), but it appears that the delay in finalizing the AACS spec. is not going to alter Toshiba's plans for a March launch. The players won't have a full feature set right away, but there's just no going back- the launch has to happen on schedule, and Toshiba knows it.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/02/17/to...yers_in_march/

LordGamer · 02-19-2006, 10:08 AM

Wow, after reading the article, Toshiba maybe doing more damage than good by essentially rushing their product out the door.

Toshiba is sacrificing a great deal in quality and compatibility, just to say they launched first. I'm not saying the Blu-ray launch will be free of errors, but coming out the gate first with a clearly unfinished product, is not a smart move for Toshi. The lack of some key features and more than likely compatibility issues, will leave a bad taste in the mouths of many consumers.

The people picking HD players up at launch are far from mainstream folk. They're tech-ies...and they have a higher standard of quality than the average Jack or Jill.

To summarize the article, the HD-DVD players will be lacking full iHD functions, 1080p support, and arguably most importantly, the new audio codecs from Dolby. When the $500 tag for the HD-A1 was announced, I said to myself, I might have to consider supporting both formats. However, the more I read about the launching HD-DVD players, the more it appears I would be shelling out $500 for a half-@ss product.

Improvements are inevitable and again, I'm sure BR won't be perfect, but why drop $500+ on a product you know now is unfinished. And were not talking significant improvements a year plus away, but probably months (maybe only weeks).

The HD-DVD camp reeks of desperation. With the severe cut in pricing to rushing a format out the door (and for what, a month or so head start), Toshiba's rushed actions might come back to haunt them.
-----

Edit... I mean d@mn...
Just as skillfully placed beside Toshiba's HD DVD tour locations, in its press release this morning, is the following language: "Firmware upgrade required for full interactive features. Because HD DVD is a new format, certain disc, digital connection and other compatibility issues are possible. If consumers experience compatibility problems, they should contact Toshiba Customer Service."
...Toshi themselves are telling you, they fudged you.

Taken from a engadget article, which I strongly agree with...
While Toshiba isn't supplying any details about the required upgrade, it looks like the company is more concerned about meeting its ship date (and getting an edge on Blu Ray) than it is about getting all of HD DVD's features in place from the start. Toshiba had better hope the list of missing features isn't too long, or they may regret being first to market.

DTV TiVo Dealer · 02-19-2006, 11:53 AM

I am surprised to read your post. I do not think anyone buying the either HD-A1 or the HD-XA1 HD DVD player will miss the interactive features that are not fully operable anyway. Especially since all upgrades will be effortlessly received via the broadband connection.

Do you think any one of my hundreds of customers who ordered the HD DVD players would prefer to wait to have the device fully featured? Early adopters are eager and happy to get more HD content and to begin enjoying it as soon as possible. Toshiba is definitely doing the right thing by not disappointing the hard core techies and getting the general market advantage by getting their product in the market before BD.

Being a Toshiba selected HD DVD player authorized dealer I have a vested interest in Toshiba delivering on their previously announced schedule and as a HD enthusiasts I am personally looking forward to watching HD DVD movies and streaming Yahoo and STARZ Internet HD PPV movies in my personal home theater system.

BTW, the two front USB ports as designed for HD gaming.

-Robert

LordGamer · 02-19-2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer

I am surprised to read your post. I do not think anyone buying the either HD-A1 or the HD-XA1 HD DVD player will miss the interactive features that are not fully operable anyway. Especially since all upgrades will be effortlessly received via the broadband connection.

Do you think any one of my hundreds of customers who ordered the HD DVD players would prefer to wait to have the device fully featured? Early adopters are eager and happy to get more HD content and to begin enjoying it as soon as possible. Toshiba is definitely doing the right thing by not disappointing the hard core techies and getting the general market advantage by getting their product in the market before BD.

Being a Toshiba selected HD DVD player authorized dealer I have a vested interest in Toshiba delivering on their previously announced schedule and as a HD enthusiasts I am personally looking forward to watching HD DVD movies and streaming Yahoo and STARZ Internet HD PPV movies in my personal home theater system.

BTW, the two front USB ports as designed for HD gaming.

-Robert

Lets be clear on something, Toshiba d@mn sure isn't doing this for the fans / tech-ies and we're not just talking about missing an interactive menu here or there. Furthermore, the full list of "compatibility issues" isn't known and may not simply be fixed via a broadband connection. The most distrubing thing to me, is the lack of the new Dolby audio codecs.

The only thing Toshiba has on its side is the price. So, they are trying to gain an advantage by rushing their product to the market...which will probably only gain them a couple months of a headstart. It wouldn't be so bad if there were other companies creating HD-DVD players, but it's basically only Toshiba and only those two models.

Mark my words, if Sony and the rest of the BR camp are able to release players at a similar pricing structure with more complete features and Toshi still only has the bare bones models, 2006 will go to team BR.

Your pick... $500 bare bones HD player with limited movie library or $700 (I believe BR player will drop by launch) HD player with more features and bigger title selection. I don't believe the people pre-ordering the Toshiba are so much tech heads as they are HD fans that want a dirt cheap player. And if there are tech-ies that are picking them up, best believe they are either supporting both or willing to settle for the Toshiba player now and get something better shortly later.

gpt · 02-19-2006, 06:14 PM

Only two channels of lossless Dolby.
Only 1080i.
Less than 50% of movies available for playback.

99.00 would be too much imo.

BobY · 02-19-2006, 08:35 PM

I don't have a dog in this fight as I have no plans to buy *any* HD player for several years, but the 1080i issue is a non-starter.

Of all of the Blu-Ray players listed for Q1 on the Blu-Ray website, only the Samsung supports 1080p and, as the owner of other Samsung products that have been rushed to market, I would strongly caution--they usually have serious, obvious bugs.

I think it's very likely that by the time other 1080p Blu-Ray players hit (Sony's not until summer!), that there will also be 1080p HD-DVD players.

It appears the cheap Toshiba player is a stripped-down version of a higher-end unit that *does* have the omitted functionality, so the consumer can choose whether they want a lower price or more features. I'm not sure that will be a successful sales strategy, but it has worked for others...

BobY · 02-19-2006, 09:05 PM

I also noticed in a number of places that Samsung announced at CES only last month that the BDP-1000 would only support 1080i and that 1080p was being dropped to get the product to market sooner. Does anyone know if that is the case? Or are they perhaps going to upconvert 1080i to 1080p (using their existing 1080p upconverting technology from their non-Hi-Def players) instead of displaying true 1080p from the source?

µCOM-4 · 02-20-2006, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpt

Only two channels of lossless Dolby.
Only 1080i.
Less than 50% of movies available for playback.

99.00 would be too much imo.

Stop trolling...nobody said you have to buy one. Regardless, Toshiba will likely be able to sell every unit they make.

The first DVD player available to the North American market didn't support 480p, didn't have component output and cost $500.

BTW are there ANY HDTVs on the market that support 1080p input?

dontknowjack · 02-20-2006, 03:43 AM

Do everyone here think that it is safe to buy HD-DVD player? If one format won't win out for at least several years I wouldn't mind buying one right now. But if Blue Ray wins out as early as end of this year or beginning of next year I would rather wait. What do you guys think?

SLedford · 02-20-2006, 07:06 AM

I think it will take two Christmas shopping seasons to sort out, but that is simply my guess. Here is how I see it:

- The first season is not impressive for either format. Crowds around the displays at Best Buy, etc., but not a lot of buyers. This will cause both formats to put on a strong advertising blitz in 2007.

- The second season is still not strong, but by this time there will be a leader and the #2 format will fold.

Keep in mind that this is nothing but a guess on my part. There is so much money (and pride) sunk into these two formats that I don't see anyone folding before the first Christmas season ends. Also, as of right now, there are NO PRODUCTS AVAILABLE for either format. A lot can happen, such as:

- Issues with the early High-Def players
- Long delays in getting BD into the market
- The realization on the part of many high def tv owners that the connections on their expensive televisions may not allow a full high def DVD picture.
- Further changes by Hollywood as their security encryption is broken in the first two months by a teen in Norway.
- Confusion by consumers as hardware manufacturers continue to sell players that "upscale to a full 1080P". Why pay $500 - $700 for a new format when they can pay $190 and get "the same picture" with their existing DVDs?
- Price comparisons with standard DVD. New release at Best Buy for standard DVD = $16, for HD/BD-DVD $30. Gee, wonder which will be an easier sell?

Sadly (because I don't have the budget for it) I have always been an early adopter. Was one of the first to get a home computer, DVD player, etc. But I have gone from enthusiastic about high def DVD to just somewhat interested. I will NOT be an early adopter here.

Chris Gerhard · 02-20-2006, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLedford

- Confusion by consumers as hardware manufacturers continue to sell players that "upscale to a full 1080P". Why pay $500 - $700 for a new format when they can pay $190 and get "the same picture" with their existing DVDs?
- Price comparisons with standard DVD. New release at Best Buy for standard DVD = $16, for HD/BD-DVD $30. Gee, wonder which will be an easier sell?

I think the potential market for the new formats clearly understands the difference between upscaled DVD and High Definition. These products are not going to interest the mass market at this time since software availability is so limited. I agree that the average consumer won't have a clue what these new formats are capable of.

Chris

LordGamer · 02-20-2006, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by µCOM-4

Stop trolling...nobody said you have to buy one. Regardless, Toshiba will likely be able to sell every unit they make.

The first DVD player available to the North American market didn't support 480p, didn't have component output and cost $500.

BTW are there ANY HDTVs on the market that support 1080p input?

Come on, man... You telling someone else to stop "trolling" is like Michael Jackson telling priests to leave boys alone.

Before I get into my point, to answer your question, yes...there are HDTVs that able to accept and display 1080p (Westinghouse has two models available now).
---

Ok, here's my point... This isn't about the lack of 1080p support, because as others stated, some BR players won't be able to handle 1080p either.

Toshiba is stating themselves that both of these products are going to lack functionality that is key to their product and set by their own standards. I keep seeing people trying to play uCOM vs LordGamer III: The Hidden Gold, in Dolby TrueHD and being upset when they realize it doesn't work. Or trying to access menu options and getting error messages and/or glitches (hell, some of the options won't be there at all).

I agree completely with your statement (the first wave of DVD players weren't progressive and lacked certain features), but this is a different case. We're not talking about features that will be added next year, but ones that are available now or within a couple months, that these players will be lacking.

crazyal · 02-20-2006, 01:00 PM

It sounded to me that the Toshiba's players will be able to accpet a firmware upgrade once everything is finalized. If it's just a matter of popping in a data cd or connecting to the internet to download a patch to flash your bios then Toshiba's not loosing by putting them in the stores early.

LordGamer · 02-20-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyal

It sounded to me that the Toshiba's players will be able to accpet a firmware upgrade once everything is finalized. If it's just a matter of popping in a data cd or connecting to the internet to download a patch to flash your bios then Toshiba's not loosing by putting them in the stores early.

Which I agree and believe will be the case for some of the features (I believe it will be via an internet connection). I guess the biggest thing, which I don't believe will be upgradeable, is the lack of the new Dolby codecs and technology. Picture and sound are equally important, especially when you're dealing with movies. But we also don't know the extent of the compatibility issues.

Also, it's just so half-@ssed. Toshiba is basically throwing out a product they know is incomplete just to get a couple months of a lead over Sony.

DTV TiVo Dealer · 02-20-2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyal

It sounded to me that the Toshiba's players will be able to accpet a firmware upgrade once everything is finalized. If it's just a matter of popping in a data cd or connecting to the internet to download a patch to flash your bios then Toshiba's not loosing by putting them in the stores early.

Correct and it looks like their won't be anything missing from Toshiba's first production other than future interactive features not yet developed. Here's an article in MAC world http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index...e&NewsID=13889

-Robert

02-17-2006, 12:56 PM	#1
strawberry HD is the Lord. Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS Posts: 1,635	HD-DVD to launch on time. It's a strange and funny feeling to be continually backing up HD Guru, (or whatever his user name is this month...), but it appears that the delay in finalizing the AACS spec. is not going to alter Toshiba's plans for a March launch. The players won't have a full feature set right away, but there's just no going back- the launch has to happen on schedule, and Toshiba knows it. http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/02/17/to...yers_in_march/ __________________ Home Theater Setup ISF-Calibrated Hitachi 57S500 HDTV Denon 2807 AVR 7.1 JBL Venue Series Speaker System Toshiba HD-A1 PS3 60 Gig Xbox 360 Premium Moxi BMC 9022 DVR Logitech Harmony 880

02-20-2006, 07:06 AM	#10
SLedford HD Fan Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 1,023	Two years (two Christmas seasons) to sort out I think it will take two Christmas shopping seasons to sort out, but that is simply my guess. Here is how I see it: - The first season is not impressive for either format. Crowds around the displays at Best Buy, etc., but not a lot of buyers. This will cause both formats to put on a strong advertising blitz in 2007. - The second season is still not strong, but by this time there will be a leader and the #2 format will fold. Keep in mind that this is nothing but a guess on my part. There is so much money (and pride) sunk into these two formats that I don't see anyone folding before the first Christmas season ends. Also, as of right now, there are NO PRODUCTS AVAILABLE for either format. A lot can happen, such as: - Issues with the early High-Def players - Long delays in getting BD into the market - The realization on the part of many high def tv owners that the connections on their expensive televisions may not allow a full high def DVD picture. - Further changes by Hollywood as their security encryption is broken in the first two months by a teen in Norway. - Confusion by consumers as hardware manufacturers continue to sell players that "upscale to a full 1080P". Why pay $500 - $700 for a new format when they can pay $190 and get "the same picture" with their existing DVDs? - Price comparisons with standard DVD. New release at Best Buy for standard DVD = $16, for HD/BD-DVD $30. Gee, wonder which will be an easier sell? Sadly (because I don't have the budget for it) I have always been an early adopter. Was one of the first to get a home computer, DVD player, etc. But I have gone from enthusiastic about high def DVD to just somewhat interested. I will NOT be an early adopter here.

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02-19-2006, 10:08 AM	#2
LordGamer Lord of Gaming Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,788	Wow, after reading the article, Toshiba maybe doing more damage than good by essentially rushing their product out the door. Toshiba is sacrificing a great deal in quality and compatibility, just to say they launched first. I'm not saying the Blu-ray launch will be free of errors, but coming out the gate first with a clearly unfinished product, is not a smart move for Toshi. The lack of some key features and more than likely compatibility issues, will leave a bad taste in the mouths of many consumers. The people picking HD players up at launch are far from mainstream folk. They're tech-ies...and they have a higher standard of quality than the average Jack or Jill. To summarize the article, the HD-DVD players will be lacking full iHD functions, 1080p support, and arguably most importantly, the new audio codecs from Dolby. When the $500 tag for the HD-A1 was announced, I said to myself, I might have to consider supporting both formats. However, the more I read about the launching HD-DVD players, the more it appears I would be shelling out $500 for a half-@ss product. Improvements are inevitable and again, I'm sure BR won't be perfect, but why drop $500+ on a product you know now is unfinished. And were not talking significant improvements a year plus away, but probably months (maybe only weeks). The HD-DVD camp reeks of desperation. With the severe cut in pricing to rushing a format out the door (and for what, a month or so head start), Toshiba's rushed actions might come back to haunt them. ----- Edit... I mean d@mn... Just as skillfully placed beside Toshiba's HD DVD tour locations, in its press release this morning, is the following language: "Firmware upgrade required for full interactive features. Because HD DVD is a new format, certain disc, digital connection and other compatibility issues are possible. If consumers experience compatibility problems, they should contact Toshiba Customer Service." ...Toshi themselves are telling you, they fudged you. Taken from a engadget article, which I strongly agree with... While Toshiba isn't supplying any details about the required upgrade, it looks like the company is more concerned about meeting its ship date (and getting an edge on Blu Ray) than it is about getting all of HD DVD's features in place from the start. Toshiba had better hope the list of missing features isn't too long, or they may regret being first to market. __________________ LordGamer Profile - George Carlin, R.I.P. 06.22.08 HD Qualifications... -- Westinghouse 47" 1080p LCD (LVM-47w1) -- Scientific Atlanta HD Receiver & DVR (8300HD), Comcast -- Sony Playstation 3 -- Microsoft Xbox 360 Last edited by LordGamer; 02-19-2006 at 10:18 AM.

02-19-2006, 11:53 AM	#3
DTV TiVo Dealer ValueElectronics.com Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Scarsdale, NY Posts: 200	I am surprised to read your post. I do not think anyone buying the either HD-A1 or the HD-XA1 HD DVD player will miss the interactive features that are not fully operable anyway. Especially since all upgrades will be effortlessly received via the broadband connection. Do you think any one of my hundreds of customers who ordered the HD DVD players would prefer to wait to have the device fully featured? Early adopters are eager and happy to get more HD content and to begin enjoying it as soon as possible. Toshiba is definitely doing the right thing by not disappointing the hard core techies and getting the general market advantage by getting their product in the market before BD. Being a Toshiba selected HD DVD player authorized dealer I have a vested interest in Toshiba delivering on their previously announced schedule and as a HD enthusiasts I am personally looking forward to watching HD DVD movies and streaming Yahoo and STARZ Internet HD PPV movies in my personal home theater system. BTW, the two front USB ports as designed for HD gaming. -Robert

02-19-2006, 06:14 PM	#5
gpt High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 390	Only two channels of lossless Dolby. Only 1080i. Less than 50% of movies available for playback. 99.00 would be too much imo.

02-19-2006, 08:35 PM	#6
BobY What's all this, then?... Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,197	I don't have a dog in this fight as I have no plans to buy any HD player for several years, but the 1080i issue is a non-starter. Of all of the Blu-Ray players listed for Q1 on the Blu-Ray website, only the Samsung supports 1080p and, as the owner of other Samsung products that have been rushed to market, I would strongly caution--they usually have serious, obvious bugs. I think it's very likely that by the time other 1080p Blu-Ray players hit (Sony's not until summer!), that there will also be 1080p HD-DVD players. It appears the cheap Toshiba player is a stripped-down version of a higher-end unit that does have the omitted functionality, so the consumer can choose whether they want a lower price or more features. I'm not sure that will be a successful sales strategy, but it has worked for others...

02-19-2006, 09:05 PM	#7
BobY What's all this, then?... Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,197	I also noticed in a number of places that Samsung announced at CES only last month that the BDP-1000 would only support 1080i and that 1080p was being dropped to get the product to market sooner. Does anyone know if that is the case? Or are they perhaps going to upconvert 1080i to 1080p (using their existing 1080p upconverting technology from their non-Hi-Def players) instead of displaying true 1080p from the source?

02-20-2006, 03:43 AM	#9
dontknowjack High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 949	Do everyone here think that it is safe to buy HD-DVD player? If one format won't win out for at least several years I wouldn't mind buying one right now. But if Blue Ray wins out as early as end of this year or beginning of next year I would rather wait. What do you guys think?

02-20-2006, 01:00 PM	#13
crazyal Smarter than the ave bear Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,312	It sounded to me that the Toshiba's players will be able to accpet a firmware upgrade once everything is finalized. If it's just a matter of popping in a data cd or connecting to the internet to download a patch to flash your bios then Toshiba's not loosing by putting them in the stores early.