Is now a good time to buy HD DVD players?

I've largely avoided the format wars for years not preferring one over the other but I was wondering that with the demise of HD DVD, wouldn't that mean those good HD DVD movies and players would go head first to the bargain bins? I was wondering then if it makes for a great deal to start stocking up on those backlogs of HD DVD movies.

I also worry about support too and probably that Toshiba and co will ignore repair requests. So, I'm hoping to feel the pulse on how realistically good it is to start grabbing those.

Most of the folks I ask simply laugh at HD DVD and say Bluray beat HD DVD, yadda yadda yadda, bicker, bicker. I'm hoping to get something informative info and I think this is the right place to do that.

Cheers.

If you don't own either, I wouldn't recommend buying HD DVD now. You'd be better off buying Blu-ray.

It's certainly up to you but with some of the deals available for the players which make excellent upscaling DVD players if nothing else and places like deep discount that sell inexpensive HD-DVD discs it's a minor investment to see what HDM is all about. So if for nothing else, a nice upscaling DVD player can be had for a reasonable price, example - http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=209112684&adid=17653&dcaid=17653

I agree with Loves if your looking for a cheap way into it, it is not a bad way to go. You can get the player he listed for $70 and is a decent upscale DVD player as well. You can still find tons of HD DVD's at places likes Frys.com and deepdiscount.com starting at around $5 a pop. I have stocked up on quite a bit of the $10 HD DVD's (some even combos) Fry's even had the 360 HD DVD addon for $39. But once the well dries up that will be it. BD players are now a respectable price as well and can be had as low as $250. And the $199 player is just around the corner and an be rented at blockbuster and such. So something to think about.

I think now is a great time to pick up inexpensive HD DVD players and inexpensive HD DVD's. I sure wouldn't own HD DVD instead of Blu-ray and I sure wouldn't buy the product expecting an increase in value, despite the low current prices, I expect future prices to be even lower with some rare exceptions. I have purchased several HD DVD players at very low prices and now own over 200 discs and just plan to keep the format and use it. Not many people want to deal with having the format and most fans of HD media really only want Blu-ray at this point since having two players hooked up and discs that don't play in the main player isn't an attractive option. Some HD DVD owners have decided on having hardware redundancy in the closet and others have decided to dump their players and software, but the dumping option would likely mean not getting much now if they have waited this long.

Chris

First of all, thank you all for your thoughts. Seeing as my brother picked up the Samsung HT-BD2 Bluray Player and home theater system, I'm not totally going to miss bluray disc playback since I can always go to his place to watch. Which I think updates the scenario a bit. I'm still interested in picking up HD DVDs as an inexpensive plunge into HDM. The way I see it, I could own some of the movies in HD-DVD and not bother owning the Bluray one. Oh, and seeing that my brother tried to play some movies and got the nice "Your player is Profile 1, this feature requires Profile 2" message, I'm not exactly keen on getting BD movies yet. I do suppose that BD problem is for another forum and thread discussion.

Keep your opinions coming and thanks again.

First of all, thank you all for your thoughts. Seeing as my brother picked up the Samsung HT-BD2 Bluray Player and home theater system, I'm not totally going to miss bluray disc playback since I can always go to his place to watch. Which I think updates the scenario a bit. I'm still interested in picking up HD DVDs as an inexpensive plunge into HDM. The way I see it, I could own some of the movies in HD-DVD and not bother owning the Bluray one. Oh, and seeing that my brother tried to play some movies and got the nice "Your player is Profile 1, this feature requires Profile 2" message, I'm not exactly keen on getting BD movies yet. I do suppose that BD problem is for another forum and thread discussion.

Keep your opinions coming and thanks again.

I have both and I sure wouldn't want just HD DVD now, even if my brother had a Blu-ray player. The Profile 2.0 issue doesn't mean anything to me, if you want the Profile 2.0 features, be sure to get a Profile 2.0 Blu-ray player. If you don't, get a bargain Profile 1.1 or Profile 1.0 player. If you never want to rent an HD disc and don't care no new releases will be offered on HD DVD then the lack of Blu-ray isn't as big a deal, but only owning HD DVD doesn't sound much of a deal to me in any event. The better format is the format that continues to be on store shelves, that opinion is based on owning both formats for quite a while.

Chris

I agree with Chris to a point, you forgot there are three formats, dvd is not dead yet and has a long way to go before it does. For me as with many, cost is the issue really. Once a decient Blu player drops below the 200 mark youll see a serge in sales, albeit a small one though. And Im not talking 199 either. And I would bet you wont see a big lift in movie sales at that point either, cds learned the selling points and when the Blu discs hit 12 bucks, they will nail the coffin shut.
But, untill then if your unhappy with or just need a new dvd player, you will not find a better one at upconverting, plus you get the added bonus of the HD discs. Im not sure how its a bad deal. You could waste just as much getting a dvd only player. Its really a no brainer. Or, if you have the money, you could invest 3-8 times as much into blu plus still 20+ per disc.........your call bud....it was easy for me.

Those are fair points. DVD does have some ways to go and it's true that picking up an HD-DVD player makes for a good upscaling DVD player with the added bonus on playing HD-DVD movies. I think it's a good deal, but I guess the question of hardware support is going to be a tough one.

Nice opinions and many thanks to all of you.:)

but I guess the question of hardware support is going to be a tough one.

That's exactly right. Just keep in mind, that as you pick up really good bargins on HD DVD movies, I don't believe they are manufacturing the players anymore. So in the event that your HD DVD player craps out and can't be repaired or replaced, you will still have a nice collection of HD DVD movies, but nothing to play them on.

Just something to think about.

That's exactly right. Just keep in mind, that as you pick up really good bargins on HD DVD movies, I don't believe they are manufacturing the players anymore. So in the event that your HD DVD player craps out and can't be repaired or replaced, you will still have a nice collection of HD DVD movies, but nothing to play them on.

Just something to think about.

That's exactly why I wouldn't recommend buying into it now. If you had a lot of movies and bought a backup player..etc then buying additional movies isn't much of a risk.

Buying a new player and starting a collection is more risky. I just don't think it makes sense to start collecting something that is already outdated.

My best recommendtation if you must have something would first be to buy the PS3 - Its profile 2.0. Or if that's too much, get an HD DVD player and rent them. That's the lowest risk and worst case you have a nice upconverting player.

Yeah. You get what you paid for. It's certainly a catch 22 kind of situation. I think I'll sit and think about it more before taking a plunge. Upconverting standard DVD hasn't made me a believer though, seeing Spider-man on normal DVDs on the BD player a day ago. It just didn't look good. I don't think HD DVD players can make it dramatically better, unless I'm making a gross assumption.

Yeah. You get what you paid for. It's certainly a catch 22 kind of situation. I think I'll sit and think about it more before taking a plunge. Upconverting standard DVD hasn't made me a believer though, seeing Spider-man on normal DVDs on the BD player a day ago. It just didn't look good. I don't think HD DVD players can make it dramatically better, unless I'm making a gross assumption.

You'd be surprised. The A2, A20, A35, and XA2 are still considered high end upconvert players and are often comparable with the 970-80 series of Oppos. My A2s even upconvert slightly better than my PS3.

From what I have seen and read, BD players tend to not be as good as upscaling players excluding the the few with high end chips in them like the REON. Is it by design that they make the SD playback not as good as they could? I don't know, but my HD DVD players do a better job with upscaling than either my Sharp SAL BD player and the PS3 according to what I see with both watching movies or running test screens.

I do not think buying into HD DVD now is a great idea because of the diminishing supply of HD DVD players which will constantly decrease going forward. Sure you can get HD DVD movies real cheap so you can build a collection fast for a low cost compared to BD, but what happens when the players are not available to buy to watch those movies?

The only way it would make sense (IMO) to buy into HD DVD now would be if you have Netflix you can watch HD DVD movies but even that supply is dwindling. Or plan on the cost of TWO HD DVD players so you have a backup player to watch those cheap HD DVD movies you buy for more years.

If you're near a Frys store there is quite a lot of HD-DVD disks on sale now from $3 to $11.

From what I have seen and read, BD players tend to not be as good as upscaling players excluding the the few with high end chips in them like the REON. Is it by design that they make the SD playback not as good as they could? I don't know, but my HD DVD players do a better job with upscaling than either my Sharp SAL BD player and the PS3 according to what I see with both watching movies or running test screens.


I find it mildly surprising that HD DVD players handle it better, although I guess with Toshiba focusing on upconversion, it shouldn't be shocking. In theory though, isn't that just a BD player firmware upgrade away from a fix?

I find it mildly surprising that HD DVD players handle it better, although I guess with Toshiba focusing on upconversion, it shouldn't be shocking. In theory though, isn't that just a BD player firmware upgrade away from a fix?

It is possible that firmware updates could make Blu-ray players better upscaling DVD players. In the cases where a given player underperforms compared to other players using the same MPEG decoding, deinterlacing, and upscaling chips, I would say it is probable a firmware update could improve performance if that aspect of the player's performance was addressed. Personally, owning several Blu-ray players and several HD DVD players, I find all of them do a good job and the differences are not anything like some here indicate. I would rely on an independent site that does objective testing before subjective hearsay at these sites in any event. The highest rated true HD player as far as DVD performance tested to date at Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity is the Samsung BD-P1200 Blu-ray player. I own it and with the original firmware, it was excellent. Subsequently Samsung made DVD performance lesser rather than better by firmware updates, although at version 2.4, the issues appear to have been solved but I am not using it for DVD currently. The best DVD player tested to date period by the same site is the Oppo DV-983H and Oppo plans to release a Blu-ray player using the same chips and that might be the best when it happens.

I currently use the Samsung BD-P1400 for primary Blu-ray playback and the Toshiba HD-A30 for HD DVD and primary DVD playback. I have watched a couple of DVD's using the BD-P1400 and I couldn't tell any difference, neither could my girlfriend, but I wouldn't expect her to notice anything. She can usually determine whether we are watching Blu-ray or DVD, but beyond that, differences aren't apparent to her.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=0&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0

I will say that the HD DVD players I own do a great job with DVD and some models are very inexpensive now and for those that don't mind having multiple players connected, can certainly be used for that purpose without complaint. Still, I would never want to have HD DVD instead of Blu-ray, regardless if some HD DVD players do a better job with DVD than some Blu-ray players.

As PFC5 indicates, DVD performance with Blu-ray players isn't a big concern, after all, it is the Blu-ray aspect that has the potential for profits and that is the major concern. It might be the manufacturers are content with acceptable, not the best possible, DVD performance. Oppo won't have that goal and will try to offer best yet performance for both formats and other formats as well.

Chris

You'd be surprised. The A2, A20, A35, and XA2 are still considered high end upconvert players and are often comparable with the 970-80 series of Oppos. My A2s even upconvert slightly better than my PS3.

I agree. My HD-E1 (european A2) is much better than anything i have ever managed to do with my htpc for dvd playback. I can't even come close to it with the ffdshow+descaler upscaling on the htpc. Though it is not perfect for me, there are some de-interlacing problems with video sourced PAL material and i think the sharpening is increasing/pronouncing the halos, i have only a very small desire to get better upscaling than what i currently have with the E1.

I get better pq from my htpc for HDM than from my E1 btw, so i don't think my htpc setup is completely fubar (as a possible explanation for the below-par upscaling)

This has all been quite interesting. I did drop by video stores the other day and apparently, nobody sells HD DVDs here. That does simplify the problem even further. lol.

In any case, I think upconversion ought to be included in tv sets, not players.

I'll probably take the plunge on bluray when prices get a little bit more reasonable.

HD DVDs are pretty much only online, but they usually only cost less than $10.00, and many times under $5.00 sometimes. It can be a cheap way to build a HDM library, but it would be important IMO, to get a backup player in case the other one breaks IF you buy a large library of these cheap titles.

This has all been quite interesting. I did drop by video stores the other day and apparently, nobody sells HD DVDs here. That does simplify the problem even further. lol.

In any case, I think upconversion ought to be included in tv sets, not players.

I'll probably take the plunge on bluray when prices get a little bit more reasonable.

Upconversion is included in all HDTV's but there are reasons having the player upscale provides better results, even if the scaling chips used are the same. I certainly prefer having my DVD player do the scaling and have read a technical analysis of why the results are better. Reasonable depends on one's perspective. Right now, profit margins are slim and the biggest selling Blu-ray player, the PS3, is sold at considerably less than it costs to make. My opinion is that prices are very reasonable.

Chris

Upconversion is included in all HDTV's but there are reasons having the player upscale provides better results, even if the scaling chips used are the same. I certainly prefer having my DVD player do the scaling and have read a technical analysis of why the results are better.


Would you happen to have a link ready? I'd be very interested to read this myself. :)


Reasonable depends on one's perspective. Right now, profit margins are slim and the biggest selling Blu-ray player, the PS3, is sold at considerably less than it costs to make. My opinion is that prices are very reasonable.

Chris

Well, I know that BD players aren't as pricey as they once were, at the same time, I'm still waiting for it to get a little cheaper. I know that the PS3 is perhaps the ideal player, but I'd like to see bluray players have more consistency with the features. There's so many of them, BD Live, profile 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 and what not. You have to read all of these things just to figure out what your player can or cannot do. Why not just have players that can do all of them and spare me the headache? lol :lol:

Would you happen to have a link ready? I'd be very interested to read this myself. :)



Well, I know that BD players aren't as pricey as they once were, at the same time, I'm still waiting for it to get a little cheaper. I know that the PS3 is perhaps the ideal player, but I'd like to see bluray players have more consistency with the features. There's so many of them, BD Live, profile 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 and what not. You have to read all of these things just to figure out what your player can or cannot do. Why not just have players that can do all of them and spare me the headache? lol :lol:

There is a thread at AVSForums that is a good place to start, this forum doesn't allow links to AVSForums. It is under standard definition DVD players and is titled:

A Primer on DVD in a High-Def world; or How Much is that Scaler in the Window?


It would have been nice if all Blu-ray players immediately had the ability to handle all features on all discs but the timing of the Blu-ray launch made that not possible. Still, the PS3 can now decode all audio codecs and is Profile 2.0 and outputs 1080/24p and represents about 90% of players in service. The player does everything I could ask for. When you compare that to DVD that took years to offer players that could do everything, Blu-ray has done amazing in that regard. If you don't care about the features requiring Profile 2.0, the Profile 1.1 players are a great value so I find no reason to complain about any of it really. I have Profile 1.0 players, they play the movie just fine. People complain about the issue, it is so insignificant in my opinion, but I guess if I didn't follow this stuff so closely, it might be something I would find issue with as well.

Chris

I read the thread, Chris. It's a great read, definitely recommended. And I realize that whether or not the upscale player does things effectively depends over all on the setup of the entire system. On a standard 480i DVD and have the player upconvert... much of it depends on whether or not the (HD) tv has to do anything with the image feed, which could result in picture detail loss. Very interesting read definitely. :)

And right now, I think I'll pass on HD DVD. The investment of HD DVD players and movies versus the risks and dying format does not make sense. Getting two players also does not necessarily solve it, because nothing prevents the back up player from dying too.

Just the other day I took the dust away from an old trusty VCD player I have and while it still plays, the tray mechanism started to choke and cough. Reminded me of my old Betamax, and my old VHS AND my old Laser Disc players. Old, worn... and choking. It's a good thing I didn't own any laser discs or I'll have some pretty large frisbees to throw. I think, at the end of the day, HD DVD is just not worth it. It would probably have made more sense to buy one if Tosh turned HD-DVD as a totally freely licenseable format for manufacturers to build so those Chinese manufacturers can build those "All-in-ones" CD/DVD/HD-DVD/cassette tapes/BD players. hahaha.

First of all, thank you all for your thoughts. Seeing as my brother picked up the Samsung HT-BD2 Bluray Player and home theater system, I'm not totally going to miss bluray disc playback since I can always go to his place to watch.

For me, that's all the more reason to get blu-ray instead. You can share discs. I kind of hate that there's a bunch of movies I own on blu-ray and would want to show my sister but cannot because she doesn't have a blu-ray player. I also own some HD DVDs and it's the same story... sucks that I can't share them with her without bringing a player over.

If you buy an hd dvd player to upscale DVDs, then it's not a crazy idea as long as you're not paying too much for the player. If you do this and get a blockbuster.com account and rent HD DVDs, that should actually work out very well for you. if you can find other sources for rentals, that's gravy. I just thinking buying new hd dvds is a bad idea; even so there's 1 or 2 I cant resist (mallrats, hot fuzz) if I can find them at Fry's at the right price. (still waiting for $4).

For me, that's all the more reason to get blu-ray instead. You can share discs. I kind of hate that there's a bunch of movies I own on blu-ray and would want to show my sister but cannot because she doesn't have a blu-ray player. I also own some HD DVDs and it's the same story... sucks that I can't share them with her without bringing a player over.

Frankly, I don't think my brother is looking forward to that. He likes to flaunt his system. I'm sure he'll be looking to call me to watch with him on his system.


If you buy an hd dvd player to upscale DVDs, then it's not a crazy idea as long as you're not paying too much for the player. If you do this and get a blockbuster.com account and rent HD DVDs, that should actually work out very well for you. if you can find other sources for rentals, that's gravy. I just thinking buying new hd dvds is a bad idea; even so there's 1 or 2 I cant resist (mallrats, hot fuzz) if I can find them at Fry's at the right price. (still waiting for $4).

Well, I guess picking one up as a cheap upscale player is not out of the realm of reason. Still, that means you have only 5 years of repair support from Tosh. That's not much of time.

I think the fear of HD DVD players 'crapping out' is quite exaggerated. If you use the player for HD DVD only and you only have, say 100 movies (which is a lot from a closed inventory of about 500 movie titles), that player is probably going to outlast you. If not, then bust out the spare, that's what it's for, but even worse case scenario you'll be able to find players on ebay for all eternity if you need one. I bought a nice LD player several months ago for $15 plus $30 shipping, they are still easy to get and here we are 10 years after the format died. On top of that there's a good chance that we will see a few (high end probably) players with HD DVD playback included down the road.

So my advise would be, if you want to buy into HD DVD, the titles are dirt cheap, you can find 100s online for under 10 bucks. But if you do, then just buy a second player to put in the closet.

Currently that is correct and the same was true for CDs and DVDs. When it comes to BD/HD DVD both use a 405nm Blue (actually violet) laser. The differing track pitch of the Blu-ray disc makes its pickup apertures differ; 0.65 for HD DVD vs. 0.85 for Blu-ray. So the two pickups are technically incompatible despite using lasers of the same type.

The combo solution utilized a diffraction plate by Ricoh between the laser and the lens to adjust the light beam so it focuses on the proper potion of the disc. The same plate is also used to provide CD and DVD playback functionality because CDs and DVDs, like BD and HD DVD, use the same type of laser (in this case red), but at a differing level 780 nm for CDs and 625nm for DVDs. Thus the plate can be used in current BD Players to provide functionality for BD, CD and DVD using the two lasers (red and Blue) with one lens.

Being propriety and expensive it is not used for anything except Combo Players even though it is a useful and practical device for CD and DVD playback as well. As prices for diffraction plates of this type drop it will behoove manufacturers to utilize this type of system instead of the current one where two lasers and two lenses are used because it will reduce manufacturing costs.

Then it is simply a matter of software.

This one (http://sellout.woot.com/Default.aspx?WootSaleId=6700&ts=1222453866&sig=da4415ff5c11a3fe) might be a good backup.