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misinformation

ilovehddvd
02-06-2008, 11:35 AM
I am amazed daily by how much imissinformation there is out there about HD DVD and Blu-ray. Well, mostly Blu-ray. I was researching some facts about Blu-ray on Blu-ray.com (http://www.blu-ray.com). I searched on the page for "profile" to see what the page said about profiles - here is the result:
What video codecs will Blu-ray support?

MPEG-2 - enhanced for HD, also used for playback of DVDs and HDTV recordings.
MPEG-4 AVC - part of the MPEG-4 standard also known as H.264 (High Profile and Main Profile).

Nice, huh? My favorite was the the answer about the name:

Why the name Blu-ray?

The name Blu-ray is derived from the underlying technology, which utilizes a blue-violet laser to read and write data. The name is a combination of "Blue" (blue-violet laser) and "Ray" (optical ray). According to the Blu-ray Disc Association the spelling of "Blu-ray" is not a mistake, the character "e" was intentionally left out so the term could be registered as a trademark.

The correct full name is Blu-ray Disc, not Blu-ray Disk (incorrect spelling)
The correct shortened name is Blu-ray, not Blu-Ray (incorrect capitalization) or Blue-ray (incorrect spelling)
The correct abbreviation is BD, not BR or BRD (wrong abbreviation)

Why not say, Blu-ray does not hav ethe right to use the name DVD, so it had to invent its own moniker.

funny stuff.

Nikopol
02-06-2008, 11:45 AM
I am amazed daily by how much imissinformation there is out there about HD DVD and Blu-ray. Well, mostly Blu-ray. I was researching some facts about Blu-ray on Blu-ray.com (http://www.blu-ray.com). I searched on the page for "profile" to see what the page said about profiles - here is the result:
What video codecs will Blu-ray support?

MPEG-2 - enhanced for HD, also used for playback of DVDs and HDTV recordings.
MPEG-4 AVC - part of the MPEG-4 standard also known as H.264 (High Profile and Main Profile).

[...]


I donīt quite get it. Blu-ray does use MPEG2 and MPEG4 (AVC) and h264 has "High Profile and Main Profile" . I guess there is VC1 missing. Why is this information not correct?

Or did you expect to find something about the "profiles". Did you search for "Bonus View" and "BD Live", they tend to call 1.1 and 2.0 that.

LazerGuided
02-06-2008, 12:32 PM
VC1 is used in HD DVD.

mschupp
02-06-2008, 12:39 PM
VC1 is used in HD DVD.VC1 is also supported by Blu Ray.

Vortex3D
02-06-2008, 12:42 PM
VC1 and AVC are both used on Blu-ray movies. Both are based on MPEG4/x264 but anyone knows if either is more efficient than other? Since HD DVD uses almost entirely VC1, maybe the movie studio simple port the same encoding to Blu-ray version? It could be because movies exclusive to Blu-ray in US do sell as HD DVD version in other countries.

Vortex3D
02-06-2008, 12:44 PM
Another possible reason why Blu-ray isn't using DVD in the name is to reduce the confusion with the SD DVD. HD DVD already having this problem because there have been non-technical buyers who bought the HD DVD version (not combo) thinking it's compatible with upscaling DVD players.

ilovehddvd
02-06-2008, 01:31 PM
Another possible reason why Blu-ray isn't using DVD in the name is to reduce the confusion with the SD DVD. HD DVD already having this problem because there have been non-technical buyers who bought the HD DVD version (not combo) thinking it's compatible with upscaling DVD players.

I doubt it. Blu-ray physically cannot support combo discs because of the fab process, so there would be no instance where confusion is likely. I admire the backhanded smack at combo discs though :)

This (http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/) is who owns the Trademark and licenses the use of the DVD logo I use in my avatar ... :what:

LazerGuided
02-06-2008, 01:47 PM
Another possible reason why Blu-ray isn't using DVD in the name is to reduce the confusion with the SD DVD. HD DVD already having this problem because there have been non-technical buyers who bought the HD DVD version (not combo) thinking it's compatible with upscaling DVD players.

Honestly that is their fault. If you don't have an HD DVD player or Blu-ray why the hell would you think it would work in your regular DVD player or even your upconverter. I mean really it does says HD DVD and Blu-ray right on the case. What SD DVD player or SD DVD upconverter says it can play HD DVD or Blu-ray? None of them.

Yes I know some HD DVD's are comboed w/ the SD DVD version. Still if you don't see that, then that means it is just HD DVD and or Blu-ray. Very simple. People need to open their eyes. If they don't that is their fault and they deserve it. Sorry, but it is true.

Vortex3D
02-06-2008, 04:37 PM
For us who understand the differences between hidef and SD, it's obvious to us.

My neighbor and parents have the same confusion even after I explained to them that HD DVD is not SD DVD. My neighbor even insisted that I put a HD DVD movie into his upscaling DVD player because he couldn't understand why upscaling DVD player with HDMI can't play HD DVD. My parents simply thought the "DVD" in HD DVD name means able to play the "SD version".

We can laugh that they are stupid, but for someone who's just not technical enough, it is very confusing. To them, the physical disc looks the same between HD DVD and DVD. It's not like VHS and DVD. Both are physically very different to non-technical users.

ilovehddvd
02-06-2008, 05:35 PM
For us who understand the differences between hidef and SD, it's obvious to us.

My neighbor and parents have the same confusion even after I explained to them that HD DVD is not SD DVD. My neighbor even insisted that I put a HD DVD movie into his upscaling DVD player because he couldn't understand why upscaling DVD player with HDMI can't play HD DVD. My parents simply thought the "DVD" in HD DVD name means able to play the "SD version".

We can laugh that they are stupid, but for someone who's just not technical enough, it is very confusing. To them, the physical disc looks the same between HD DVD and DVD. It's not like VHS and DVD. Both are physically very different to non-technical users.

I have seen the same thing. So my pitch is to get an HD DVD player to upconvert your DVDs and then with the free movies they get a taste. like crack, the first hits free ...

DOnt forget, people still think DVD stands for Digital Video Disc ... it initially stood for Digital VERSITLE DISC.

LazerGuided
02-06-2008, 05:39 PM
People need to educate them selfs and if they wont someone should. If they don't understand it after that then maybe this isn't something they should get into.

gosmosis
02-06-2008, 06:14 PM
I have seen the same thing. So my pitch is to get an HD DVD player to upconvert your DVDs and then with the free movies they get a taste. like crack, the first hits free ...

DOnt forget, people still think DVD stands for Digital Video Disc ... it initially stood for Digital VERSITLE DISC.

Well, let me go one step further. Most people (outside this forum) have no clue that DVD stands for anything. They view DVD as a symbol, not individual letters. Doesn't make them stupid...they just don't care. This may be why many people may think the HD DVD should work in any player. My parents (mid 70's) have no idea that CD stands for compact disc. To them, it's a symbol of the "system" No one calls them compact discs...just CD.:rolleyes:

eapleitez
02-06-2008, 06:35 PM
Deleted post

LazerGuided
02-06-2008, 09:20 PM
In the end it all comes down to if your not going to educate yourself then deal with the consequences.

Or have someone teach you and if you still don't get it then maybe this new stuff isn't for you.

BobY
02-07-2008, 04:42 PM
Well, that's the beauty of the HD DVD TWIN disc.

If you put it in a DVD player, it plays in SD, if you put it in an HD DVD player, it plays in HD.

In either case it goes in label side up.

That's not too hard to understand for anybody.

LazerGuided
02-07-2008, 05:40 PM
Well, that's the beauty of the HD DVD TWIN disc.

If you put it in a DVD player, it plays in SD, if you put it in an HD DVD player, it plays in HD.

In either case it goes in label side up.

That's not too hard to understand for anybody.

Yes but not every title is like that. Also why would you buy anything HD DVD period even if it did have the SD DVD version on it if you didn't have an HD DVD player. I mean...

1. They cost more

2. You run into the problem like I stated above not every title is dual format.

Again it comes down to stupidity and people not being educated. Even when people are educated they can be stupid.

Don't buy a dual format disc unless you have both formats. Just get the SD DVD version and be done with it. Unless you have an HD DVD player then buy an HD DVD version or dual format version. But don't buy an HD DVD version or HD DVD/DVD version if you don't have an HD DVD player.

PFC5
02-07-2008, 11:45 PM
Yes but not every title is like that. Also why would you buy anything HD DVD period even if it did have the SD DVD version on it if you didn't have an HD DVD player. I mean...

1. They cost more

2. You run into the problem like I stated above not every title is dual format.

Again it comes down to stupidity and people not being educated. Even when people are educated they can be stupid.

Don't buy a dual format disc unless you have both formats. Just get the SD DVD version and be done with it. Unless you have an HD DVD player then buy an HD DVD version or dual format version. But don't buy an HD DVD version or HD DVD/DVD version if you don't have an HD DVD player.

People that want to upgrade to HDM at soon point might want to have both options available to them and might pay a couple of bucks more on a new release to get that option. It is mostly only new day/date releases that are a combo disc, the price difference is not that great.

For combos to fully work they need to be prices very close to the same price as the SD DVD version. this pricing would make large inroads into HDM and actually help HDM become more than a niche market.

LazerGuided
02-08-2008, 10:09 AM
People that want to upgrade to HDM at soon point might want to have both options available to them and might pay a couple of bucks more on a new release to get that option. It is mostly only new day/date releases that are a combo disc, the price difference is not that great.

For combos to fully work they need to be prices very close to the same price as the SD DVD version. this pricing would make large inroads into HDM and actually help HDM become more than a niche market.

Ok it is like this.

We have an employee who is a moron. He just bought Devil May Cry 4 the Collectors Edition for the PS3. However he doesn't have a PS3 currently and never has. He bought it because he will eventually get a PS3 and wanted the collectors edition because he was afraid they would run out and he would never be able to get one. Now why the hell would you buy a video game for a console you don't even have. Yes you may be getting one, but he doesn't know when he is. It could be a week, month, year, decade, whatever. It is like teasing yourself, why do it.

Anyways why would someone buy a combo HD DVD / DVD if they don't have the HD DVD player. Sounds pointless to me. Yeah they can still watch the SD DVD on their DVD player, but it just seems stupid to buy HD DVD and not being able to watch it.

BobY
02-08-2008, 11:33 AM
I wasn't talking about the combo discs--they are literally an SD DVD glued on the back of an HD DVD (something that Blu-Ray still can't do, though).

The TWIN disc is a multi-layer disc with SD layers and HD layers. It looks like a conventional DVD, with a label on one side. When you put it in an SD player, the player reads the SD layers, when you put it in an HD DVD player, the player reads the HD layers. It's goof-proof. It will work for anyone who knows how to use a DVD player.

Adding an additional layer to the disc costs significantly less than bonding another disc on the back and the projections are that it would ultimately cost at most a little more than a conventional DVD in high volume production.

Although there are currently one or two dual-layer TWIN discs on the market, the triple-layer TWIN discs have only been approved for production and none are shipping yet.

This would be a futures thing. For slightly more than an SD DVD, you could get a TWIN disc that would play in your HD DVD player and any SD DVD players you also have (kid's room, bedroom, portable player, car/van/SUV player, computer, etc.). Or you can start building toward an HD library even if you don't have an HD DVD player yet.

It hasn't happened yet--it may never happen at this point--but one thing I do know is that it is physically impossible to do with Blu-Ray discs and that's a big oversight which, in my opinion, will always limit Blu-Ray disc sales. I don't see many consumers buying anything other than "must have" movies on Blu-Ray, knowing they will have to buy it on DVD as well in order to use it elsewhere.

LazerGuided
02-08-2008, 12:43 PM
Ok I will say it again....

If you do not have an HD DVD player why they hell would you buy an HD DVD or even an HD DVD / DVD combo disc.

If you don't have an HD DVD player don't buy an HD DVD period, even if it is the combo disc. Worth less when you can get the SD version on a single disc for much less and it will be the same quality as the SD version on the combo disc.

BobY
02-08-2008, 05:19 PM
Did you read my post at all?

Again, I'm not talking about combo discs, I'm talking about TWIN discs.

The reason you would buy one is because it would cost no more than a
DVD, it would play like a DVD, with no concerns or issues regardless of what type of player you put it in and you could start building a library of HD discs for the day you do decide to get an HD DVD player.

The point of the TWIN would be to phase out conventional DVD and only release films in the future in TWIN format, so that studios, retail stores, rental shops, etc., only need to manage, inventory and stock one type of disc to serve both the existing (and likely long-lived) DVD market and the potentially growing HD market. This alone would save everyone involved lots of money--whether they would pass it on to consumers, who knows, but they could.

edders
02-08-2008, 05:59 PM
or stupider, just don't get the Op's point at all. Don't understand why Blu-Ray or BD is so darn funny.

I do think Sony missed out on naming it something which really educates the public as to the data storage capability attainable with Blue Ray Lasers. My acronym would have sounded really Powerful and Irresistible: "BRUTA"
It kind of goes along with their "BRAVIA" line of TV's. Just imagine owning a BRAVIA which is playing a BRUTA movie...sounds good huh?

What does BRUTA stand for? (Blue Ray Up The Arse). :haha:

Ed

ps: Your REALLY don't want to know what BRAVIA stands for...

ppss: Sorry Sony advocates I just could not resist the opportunity to make a joke out of it, don't take it personal. Think this whole HD-DVD and BD thing needs a little lightening up now and then. The good news is that the pharmacy just called and my meds are back in stock.

edders
02-08-2008, 06:05 PM
BD supporters don't feel I am picking on just them, and to maximize hate mail:

Toshiba could have named their format "Tooshie Disk." That way, if it becomes obsolete one could always use the supplied double layer disk sleeve to wipe their...

Now have we all lightened up a bit?

Ed

LazerGuided
02-08-2008, 06:06 PM
Did you read my post at all?

Again, I'm not talking about combo discs, I'm talking about TWIN discs.

The reason you would buy one is because it would cost no more than a
DVD, it would play like a DVD, with no concerns or issues regardless of what type of player you put it in and you could start building a library of HD discs for the day you do decide to get an HD DVD player.

The point of the TWIN would be to phase out conventional DVD and only release films in the future in TWIN format, so that studios, retail stores, rental shops, etc., only need to manage, inventory and stock one type of disc to serve both the existing (and likely long-lived) DVD market and the potentially growing HD market. This alone would save everyone involved lots of money--whether they would pass it on to consumers, who knows, but they could.

Ok what the hell is the difference between an HD DVD / DVD combo disc and a twin disc?

Twin Disc as your putting it is the same damn thing as an HD DVD / DVD combo disc. So please explain if you mean something else.

Why start an HD DVD collection before you can actually watch it in HD DVD or Blu-ray for that matter? It is pointless. Stupid people buy content before they have something to play it on.

You didn't start buying CD's before you had a CD player of any kind did you? If you did sorry your stupid then.

Your point is worthless and not valid. My point is valid and worthwhile. Sorry but why buy something when you can't use it. Yeah you can watch the SD DVD version ok cool. But if you had just bought the SD DVD version instead of a Combo HD DVD / DVD or Twin Disc as you put it you would save yourself a lot of money.

Also it brings up the point of ok you want HD DVD but you don't have a player but your going to start your collection anyways. All the money you waste on the titles could be money spent on the player itself.

Example: lets say I have an HDTV buy no Blu-ray or HD DVD player or content just yet.

I decide to purchase some HD DVD's without having a player to play them on. All the money spent on those HD DVD's could have been spent on buying the player instead.

BobY
02-08-2008, 11:25 PM
Try reading my post. Or any of my previous posts. I can see why you don't understand the point--you've made up your mind on the subject and aren't interested in facts or information.

I'll make this simple:

1) I explained what the TWIN disc is. It's a multilayer disc with SD and HD layers, just like a multi-layer DVD. It's not a Combo disc, which is an SD disc glued to the back of an HD disc. A TWIN would be no more expensive than a typical DVD in large volume production.

2) It plays just like a DVD, you put it label side up in a player and it just plays, regardless of whether it's a DVD player or an HD DVD player.

3) The industry could stop making DVD's and only make TWINs, as it would allow them to serve both DVD and HD markets with the same product, greatly reducing inventory costs for everyone involved.

People would buy TWIN discs because:

1) It costs no more than a DVD.

2) New releases would only be available on TWINs and not on DVDs, which would be phased out.

3) For those who someday plan to upgrade to HD, they have already started building their HD library for no more cost than DVD and they will not need to repurchase any of these discs. And they will play in every different player they have regardless of whether it's HD or SD.

Your examples are non-sequitors. Of course you wouldn't buy CD's or DVD's before you had a CD or DVD player--you couldn't play the discs at all. A TWIN disc is perfectly usuable in the DVD player someone already has.

You seem to be hung up on a baseless assumption--these discs will cost a lot more than DVD's. That may be true of Combo discs (which also have the problem of which side you place up in the player and no label), but it would not be the case with TWIN discs.

PFC5
02-09-2008, 01:35 AM
Ok what the hell is the difference between an HD DVD / DVD combo disc and a twin disc?

Twin Disc as your putting it is the same damn thing as an HD DVD / DVD combo disc. So please explain if you mean something else.

Why start an HD DVD collection before you can actually watch it in HD DVD or Blu-ray for that matter? It is pointless. Stupid people buy content before they have something to play it on.

You didn't start buying CD's before you had a CD player of any kind did you? If you did sorry your stupid then.

Your point is worthless and not valid. My point is valid and worthwhile. Sorry but why buy something when you can't use it. Yeah you can watch the SD DVD version ok cool. But if you had just bought the SD DVD version instead of a Combo HD DVD / DVD or Twin Disc as you put it you would save yourself a lot of money.

Also it brings up the point of ok you want HD DVD but you don't have a player but your going to start your collection anyways. All the money you waste on the titles could be money spent on the player itself.

Example: lets say I have an HDTV buy no Blu-ray or HD DVD player or content just yet.

I decide to purchase some HD DVD's without having a player to play them on. All the money spent on those HD DVD's could have been spent on buying the player instead.

BobY explained this very well, but left out one additional piece. Warner stated that SD DVD sales are dropping BECAUSE of the HD formats because they do not want to buy a SD DVD just to replace it again with a HD version so they just rent the SD DVD for now and wait. Studios do not like this as they make more money on SD DVD disc sales than all other revenue (i.e. theater sales, HDM sales, download sales) they have combined.

By offering a TWIN disc on new releases for the same rpice as a new release SD DVD, they can keep everyone happy and no need to stop buying movies because they will not be obsolete when the consumer moves to HD media. They will already OWN it for the same price. They can even put the extras only on the HD side to "help" people decide to change sooner to HDM after enough time passes and the studios then get the more secure HDM over the already easily broken CSS on SD DVD. Summary:

1. Studios win because they get the Home Video movie sales back on track without the consumer afraid to buy a SD DVD because it is also a HD DVD too and will not have to be replaced.

2. Studios also save by having ONE package for their movies instead of multiple packages that must be kept/assembled seprately on different lines.

3. Retailers are happy because they save the shelf space now used for HDM to be put to better use, simpler movie ordering when only ONE disc type gets ordered so no over/under stocks for changing demand, AND they get THEIR home video sales back instead of Netflix, etc getting the additional rentals.

4. Rental companies now only have to stock ONE disc format for movies that EVERYONE can play and rent. Also saving more shelve space and simpler movie ordering when only ONE disc type gets ordered so no over/under stocks for changing demand.

5. Consumers benefit because they can go back to feeling comfortable buying movies again without all the confusion and worries about having to replace the movies again. They get piece of mind AND they get a future bonus if/when they decide the time is right for THEM to move to HDM.

This really isn't that hard to see IF you are willing to look beyond the format war and just look at it from the consumers' perspective. You are ARE a consumer before a format fan right? ;) :hithere:

LazerGuided
02-09-2008, 08:30 AM
Yeah and how far off are from this Twin Disc idea? Seems pretty flimsy to me right now. Almost something of the future not possible.

Also if these Twin Discs as you put them have both the SD DVD and HD DVD version on them how can a regular DVD player play it? How does it pick which version is which? Unlike a combo disc where one side is one and the other side is the other if these Twin Discs are both formats on one disc one side how does a DVD player pick the DVD version and how does an HD DVD player pick the HD DVD version? Or is this something in the menus that you would pick?

And no I haven't made up my mind, you just didn't explain it clearly what you were saying and it seemed you were getting things confused here.

Ok but it still comes down to a couple things then...

1. Your still buying an HD DVD or Blu-ray disc before you have a HD DVD or Blu-ray player, so why buy it if you don't have the player all the money spent on the content could have been spent on the player. What if you don't plan on moving to HD DVD or Blu-ray? Why buy something your not going to use. Also I don't see where your coming from on it would cost the same as a regular DVD. Bullshit, it is basically like a combo disc just on one of of the disc. There are still two different formats, it would cost the same.

2. A combo HD DVD / DVD is perfectly suitable in someones DVD player. However it comes down to why by it if you cannot watch the HD version. Save your money and buy the player then the content. Oh also I own a few combo discs and they are perfectly labeled as to which side is the HD DVD and which side is regular DVD.

3. Ok so why buy a Twin Disc if you cannot watch the HD version? Why buy a current combo disc if you cannot watch the HD version? Pointless IMO and stupid. So either waste your money on something you cannot watch in HD or buy the player first then the content.

Yeah all my points come down to the same thing and it is true why buy if it cannot watch the HD version. WHY? Don't give me this bullshit about starting your collection. That just isn't going to cut it.

Also your going to have to show me proof that these "TWIN DISCs" are just as cheap as a DVD is. Because for some reason I know this isn't true. It is basically the same concept as a combo disc just both formats are on one side of the disc. So the only difference is it is one sided. Still there are two formats on it. Thusly it is going to cost the same price.

wvradicalman
02-09-2008, 09:29 AM
This whole HD-HD DVD argument is similar to the audio Hybrid SACD. That has a layer that plays on CD players and also SACD tracks, usually both stereo and multichannel. A few companies issue only one version (PentaTone and Channel, for instance) whereas others still double inventory (Telarc) releasing both a CD and a Hybrid SACD, much as the video companies are releasing different versions. It seems that the public simply cannot accept two formats being combined. If the price is the same, they would be getting more for their money, but seem to choose to view it as getting something they don't want. The only way this dual type of disc will be successful is if the studios only release once version. You want "American Gangster" you buy the combo disc, whether you play SDs or HD DVDs, cause it is the only version and you want that title.

I think it's myopic and intelligence challenged to think that way about dual format titles, but it's the way people think, and having one version is the only solution.

Rad B

PFC5
02-09-2008, 05:51 PM
Yeah and how far off are from this Twin Disc idea? Seems pretty flimsy to me right now. Almost something of the future not possible.

Also if these Twin Discs as you put them have both the SD DVD and HD DVD version on them how can a regular DVD player play it? How does it pick which version is which? Unlike a combo disc where one side is one and the other side is the other if these Twin Discs are both formats on one disc one side how does a DVD player pick the DVD version and how does an HD DVD player pick the HD DVD version? Or is this something in the menus that you would pick?

And no I haven't made up my mind, you just didn't explain it clearly what you were saying and it seemed you were getting things confused here.

Ok but it still comes down to a couple things then...

1. Your still buying an HD DVD or Blu-ray disc before you have a HD DVD or Blu-ray player, so why buy it if you don't have the player all the money spent on the content could have been spent on the player. What if you don't plan on moving to HD DVD or Blu-ray? Why buy something your not going to use. Also I don't see where your coming from on it would cost the same as a regular DVD. Bullshit, it is basically like a combo disc just on one of of the disc. There are still two different formats, it would cost the same.

2. A combo HD DVD / DVD is perfectly suitable in someones DVD player. However it comes down to why by it if you cannot watch the HD version. Save your money and buy the player then the content. Oh also I own a few combo discs and they are perfectly labeled as to which side is the HD DVD and which side is regular DVD.

3. Ok so why buy a Twin Disc if you cannot watch the HD version? Why buy a current combo disc if you cannot watch the HD version? Pointless IMO and stupid. So either waste your money on something you cannot watch in HD or buy the player first then the content.

Yeah all my points come down to the same thing and it is true why buy if it cannot watch the HD version. WHY? Don't give me this bullshit about starting your collection. That just isn't going to cut it.

Also your going to have to show me proof that these "TWIN DISCs" are just as cheap as a DVD is. Because for some reason I know this isn't true. It is basically the same concept as a combo disc just both formats are on one side of the disc. So the only difference is it is one sided. Still there are two formats on it. Thusly it is going to cost the same price.

So you didn't even read my post huh?

FYI, There are already several Dual Layer TWIN discs out there and they have worked perfectly and as designed. The first layer is the SD DVD version so that is what the SD DVD player sees and reads. All the HD DVD players were designed for this TWIN format so they read the flag stating it IS a TWIN disc and automatically either read the HD DVD layers.

Again. TWIN discs ALREADY EXIST and are on the market and work fine. It is just the Triple layer discs that have not been released yet.

So if a car company charges the same money for the current year model that they charged for the last year model but add a new standard feature you won't buy the car if you do not need the feature right away or think you will never need it?


This is not a hard concept to understand if you want to try to understand it. Many people without kids see no need for either combos or TWIN discs because they are looking only at THEIR personal usage instead of how MANY people could use/benefit from combo/TWIN discs. It is for transitional purposed so that there is a bridge between SD players which are rampant in most houses and the currently much more expensive (but dropping fast for HD DVD) HD players so that you can STILL watch a movie anywhere you already have a SD DVD player and still watch it in HD in any room you can afford to have a HD setup.

I have 5 bedrooms, 4 laptops, 4 computers, and 3 portable DVD players that ALL have SD DVD. Without combo/TWIN discs, I am either limited to where I can watch a movie I buy in HD, or I just buy the SD DVD so I can watch them in the bedrooms, in the cars, or on a plane where there nothing to do but WAIT for the flight/trip to be over.

Like many other parents here and elsewhere that have kids, we do not buy HD movies for the kids since they do not have a HD setup in their bedrooms. THIS is how combo/TWIN discs can expand HDM out of niche status. Until HD player prices drop enough to replace all the SD DVD players in a house, HDM will not move beyond niche without a transition discs such as a combo/TWIN disc.

Why is that hard to understand? I can understand many things that do not effect me personally, but it seems those who hate combo discs cannot do the same thing. :banghead:

LazerGuided
02-09-2008, 10:10 PM
So you didn't even read my post huh?

FYI, There are already several Dual Layer TWIN discs out there and they have worked perfectly and as designed. The first layer is the SD DVD version so that is what the SD DVD player sees and reads. All the HD DVD players were designed for this TWIN format so they read the flag stating it IS a TWIN disc and automatically either read the HD DVD layers.

Again. TWIN discs ALREADY EXIST and are on the market and work fine. It is just the Triple layer discs that have not been released yet.

So if a car company charges the same money for the current year model that they charged for the last year model but add a new standard feature you won't buy the car if you do not need the feature right away or think you will never need it?


This is not a hard concept to understand if you want to try to understand it. Many people without kids see no need for either combos or TWIN discs because they are looking only at THEIR personal usage instead of how MANY people could use/benefit from combo/TWIN discs. It is for transitional purposed so that there is a bridge between SD players which are rampant in most houses and the currently much more expensive (but dropping fast for HD DVD) HD players so that you can STILL watch a movie anywhere you already have a SD DVD player and still watch it in HD in any room you can afford to have a HD setup.

I have 5 bedrooms, 4 laptops, 4 computers, and 3 portable DVD players that ALL have SD DVD. Without combo/TWIN discs, I am either limited to where I can watch a movie I buy in HD, or I just buy the SD DVD so I can watch them in the bedrooms, in the cars, or on a plane where there nothing to do but WAIT for the flight/trip to be over.

Like many other parents here and elsewhere that have kids, we do not buy HD movies for the kids since they do not have a HD setup in their bedrooms. THIS is how combo/TWIN discs can expand HDM out of niche status. Until HD player prices drop enough to replace all the SD DVD players in a house, HDM will not move beyond niche without a transition discs such as a combo/TWIN disc.

Why is that hard to understand? I can understand many things that do not effect me personally, but it seems those who hate combo discs cannot do the same thing. :banghead:

Still it is going to cost the same as a HD DVD / DVD combo disc no matter what. Also prove to me, show me proof of these Twin Discs. You say they already exist show me one. Prove to me that they are on the market. I have never seen them or heard of them, however that doesn't mean they don't exist. But your still going to have to show me one in existence. Also you will have to prove to me that they cost the same as the regular SD DVD version too.

I seriously don't plan on buying many cars in my lifetime. I am 24 and have only had two. While many other people my age have gone through many more then that. I had a 1995 now I have a 1999. And until this 1999 craps out I don't plan on buying a newer car. Plus I wouldn't buy a brand new car either. Even if it did or didn't have a new feature. Also there are only a few features on a car I would want anyways. I wouldn't buy a new car just because they put a Blu-ray player or HD DVD player in it. Nor would I if they put a regular DVD player in it. Something I don't need or want in a car.

Things I want in a car
1. Leather
2. MP3 capable headunit, built in or after market connectivity. A CD player isn't even needed for me, since I only listen to MP3's.
3. Turbocharged/Supercharged engine or just a powerful engine in general.
4. Automatic, can't drive stick and don't plan on learning either.
5. Sunroof

Also if it was possible and they made them... I would only buy HD DVD's or Blu-ray discs with just the movie on them. I don't need all this extras crap. I never watch the extras so why should I have to pay for them. They should come out with ones with just the movie on them.

Transition my ass. If someone wants to bridge the gap they are going to buy an HD DVD player or Blu-ray player. Buying Twin Discs or HD DVD / DVD combo discs aren't going to bridge any gap. Because the people are going to are going to say exactly what I have been saying. Why buy it if I cannot watch both versions now. So instead of spending all my money on combo discs and Twin Discs I will buy the player I want then buy the content. Also what if they buy these Twin Discs and HD DVD / DVD combo discs and never upgrade to HD anything. They are spending all this money for nothing when they could have just bought the SD DVD version for much less.

I get your point about them being on different layers and all ok so what it is still basically a COMBO disc. Just that it doesn't have two different sides. Ok fine, but there is still an HD version on it which is going to cost more then the SD version that is on it as well. So in reality it will cost the same as an HD DVD / DVD combo disc. There is no way it could cost less or for that matter much less. I will give you a small degree of difference but seriously it cannot cost significantly less then an HD DVD / DVD combo costs currently.

---------------------------------------------

Ok so I did GOOGLE search. Found an article. Don't know how good of a source it is but it is a jumping point on my point.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/03/20/first-hd-dvd-dvd-twin-disc-hits-u-s-in-june-along-with-new-hdi/

"Add one more dual format disc type to the pile, as Bandai Visual will bring the HD DVD/DVD Twin disc to the U.S. June 26, with the release of its bestselling OVA Freedom, and will also be one of the first releases to include HDi network capabilities."

V ^ Mind you that is from, March 20th, 2007. As well as the comment below. ^ V

"The SRP for Freedom Vol.1 (of 6) is $39.99 and while we don't know much about the series beyond its mix of CGI and 2D animation, it does heavily represent that most holiest of foods, ramen."

*$39.99, that seems just as much as a HD DVD or Blu-ray title is now. Even more then most titles. That is the same price if not more then many HD DVD, Blu-ray and HD DVD / DVD combo discs.

You may and they may consider it a transitional piece, but in reality it isn't.

*Also it seems that there was and possibly still is a problem with these playing in an SD DVD player.

They talk about low cost, but don't show anything for it. However what is above is proof enough that yeah they cost the same if not more. Even if it was a while back. It wasn't that far back.

PFC5
02-10-2008, 08:16 AM
Correct that those Freedom discs are priced high. Anime is a niche market for consumers so they charge more for them usually from what I have seen. They are very big in Japan and some members here are fans of it, but I have never even seen an anime disc and have no interest in it myself.

TWIN discs are said to cost less to mfg than combos because they do not need dual stampers for them. All current SD DVD/HD DVD lines can do them with a small amount of modification and do not need a new line like BD discs need.

I think you took the car analogy too far in your analysis. It was just an example about how people do not skip buying something because it has something they do not need presently, but does not cost more to get it. I have only bought ONE new car myself and i now buy cars that are 1-2 years old because I get them for half price and they are a better deal. Cars are not an investment but rather a money pit that goes down in value, save for the rare cars that after many years start to go up in value. ;)

Glad you did some research yourself on the TWIN discs, so you now know they DO exist. I am surprised you didn't already know that since we HAVE had a few threads on it here already.

LazerGuided
02-10-2008, 09:31 AM
However you still haven't proven to me other then this Anime disc that regular movies exist on this Twin Disc. Show me an example other then Anime. Please.

Also like I said before I would never buy a brand new car period. I know better then that.

BobY
02-10-2008, 05:53 PM
Just out of curiosity, do you ever read the posts you reply to?

Or does it just annoy you that someone replied to your questions that you didn't really want answered because you've already made up your mind as to what the answer is?

I've said multiple times now the TWIN disc is a futures thing and what it would take for it to be successful. The Anime TWINs on the market are only dual-layer, so they don't have enough storage for both the SD and HD version of a typical movie. There are no more expensive to produce than standard dual-layer HD DVD. They work just fine.

I do hope you realize the manufacturing costs of optical discs have almost nothing to do with what they sell for. The retail price reflects the profit they want to make based on the volume they expect to sell.

If you're in the market for a car, new or otherwise, I challenge you to find one that has only the features you want and none you don't care about. If it doesn't cost you any more to get extra features included you don't care about, are you saying you wouldn't buy the car just on principle?

Every day, thousands and thousands of consumers buy cars with option packages that have the options they want and a bunch they don't care about or may not even want, because it's the only way to get the options they do want. Even if they could special order the car with only the options they want, they would find it's more expensive than getting the option package or negotiating for a car that's already on the dealers lot.

I've ended up with alloy wheels, a 6-disc CD changer and a trailer towing package thrown in for free on cars I've bought because the car was on the lot, the dealer wanted to sell it and I wasn't willing to pay any extra for those features.

The SACD example that was offered doesn't really apply, because consumers had no desire whatsover to upgrade their CD player to an SACD player. They didn't even know what SACD was. Consumers are already cognizant of HD and upgrading to HDTV's in large numbers (even if they are not currently watching HD content).

BobY
02-10-2008, 06:11 PM
Oh, I also have to add that consumers have been buying DVD's with Full-Screen on one side and Widescreen on the other (apparently without complaint) for years.

Why would a consumer who didn't want the Widescreen version buy the disc? Why would a consumer who didn't want the Full-Screen version buy the disc? I guess you'll have to ask the millions of people who have done so...

wvradicalman
02-10-2008, 08:42 PM
The SACD example that was offered doesn't really apply, because consumers had no desire whatsover to upgrade their CD player to an SACD player. They didn't even know what SACD was. Consumers are already cognizant of HD and upgrading to HDTV's in large numbers (even if they are not currently watching HD content).[/QUOTE]


Actually there were as lot of people waiting for the SACD format...and that is why it is a successful niche format today. The general public didn't want anything better than CD in the same way that the general public doesn't want anything better than SD DVD. The discs that were full screen on one side and widescreen on the other were successful because those titles were only sold that way. That's my point. No dual format discs, flipper or not, will sell until it is the only version. The one and only. By the way, the initials for general public are G. P. which is music is a grand pause. Sort of fits, doesn't it?

BobY
02-10-2008, 09:32 PM
I agree the TWIN could only be successful if movies are only released in that format. I've said that several times. The point is, it's actually possible with HD DVD and impossible with Blu-Ray because the shallow data depth of the HD layers in Blu-Ray would cause insurmountable interference with the SD layers--they could never be read reliably by existing SD DVD players.

I'm not sure SACD could even be considered a successful niche format--for the last two years the RIAA couldn't even track sales because they were so low. Even if it can be considered a successful niche audio format, that level of "success" would be the kiss of death for HDM. It costs far more money to produce an HD movie than an audio disc. Specialty audio discs could sell in the thousands of units and still be profitable for a small record label, but those kinds of numbers can't be profitable for any movie studio.

The general public may not want anything better than DVD right now, but there's no disputing they are buying HDTV's big time and it won't be long until there are many tens of millions of HD ready consumers out there, something that never happened with SACD.

LazerGuided
02-10-2008, 09:43 PM
Still comes down to if that was the only format available and you didn't want to upgrade to HD anything why buy something you cannot watch.

Why should I be forced to buy something I wont and or cannot use?

Your right I wouldn't be able to find a car most likely with just those features. However I sure as hell wouldn't buy a brand new car if I could get a year or more older. Also most cars that are older even by a year are cheaper then a brand new car. As soon as you drive it off the lot it goes down in value.

Would I not buy a car because it doesn't come with leather, damn straight I wouldn't buy a car new or used if it didn't have leather. Even if it was my dream car I wouldn't buy it if it didn't have leather. Would I not buy a car because it doesn't have a sunroof? You better damn well believe I wouldn't. My first car didn't have a sunroof and it sucked, my second car does and I would never go back. By the way my first car was handed down to me I had no choice in it.

PFC5
02-10-2008, 09:57 PM
Still comes down to if that was the only format available and you didn't want to upgrade to HD anything why buy something you cannot watch.

Why should I be forced to buy something I wont and or cannot use?

Your right I wouldn't be able to find a car most likely with just those features. However I sure as hell wouldn't buy a brand new car if I could get a year or more older. Also most cars that are older even by a year are cheaper then a brand new car. As soon as you drive it off the lot it goes down in value.

Would I not buy a car because it doesn't come with leather, damn straight I wouldn't buy a car new or used if it didn't have leather. Even if it was my dream car I wouldn't buy it if it didn't have leather. Would I not buy a car because it doesn't have a sunroof? You better damn well believe I wouldn't. My first car didn't have a sunroof and it sucked, my second car does and I would never go back. By the way my first car was handed down to me I had no choice in it.

You didn't answer his direct question about the car if it was used.

Let me ask you this.

If you saw a used car for the right price that you liked, and it had the options you had to have to buy it, but it also had other options you don't need.

Would you STILL buy it even though it had extra options you didn't need or wouldn't use?

LazerGuided
02-10-2008, 10:59 PM
You didn't answer his direct question about the car if it was used.

Let me ask you this.

If you saw a used car for the right price that you liked, and it had the options you had to have to buy it, but it also had other options you don't need.

Would you STILL buy it even though it had extra options you didn't need or wouldn't use?

Depends... Possibly not. There are other factors that would need to be taken in consideration. Mileage, condition of the car, etc... Also it depends on what those options are. I mean if they are stupid options that I know I will never use why buy the car if I wont use them. Just like if I wasn't going to upgrade to HD or Blu-ray why buy a combo disc or a twin disc if I am not going to use only but part of the disc. Why be forced to buy something I wont use or cannot use.

PFC5
02-11-2008, 01:07 AM
Depends... Possibly not. There are other factors that would need to be taken in consideration. Mileage, condition of the car, etc... Also it depends on what those options are. I mean if they are stupid options that I know I will never use why buy the car if I wont use them. Just like if I wasn't going to upgrade to HD or Blu-ray why buy a combo disc or a twin disc if I am not going to use only but part of the disc. Why be forced to buy something I wont use or cannot use.

Please re-read my hypothetical situation again and forget about HDM. If you liked the car otherwise and the price was right, etc, etc, would you NOT buy it because it had mirror lights (again a hypothetical example) if that was something you wouldn't ever need.

Think outside what your argument was and just think about cars in that situation please.

LazerGuided
02-11-2008, 07:52 AM
Please re-read my hypothetical situation again and forget about HDM. If you liked the car otherwise and the price was right, etc, etc, would you NOT buy it because it had mirror lights (again a hypothetical example) if that was something you wouldn't ever need.

Think outside what your argument was and just think about cars in that situation please.

If you don't like my answer then go fly a kite. I answered it, end of discussion.

unotis
02-11-2008, 08:19 AM
PFC5 and BobY, you both might as well give up trying to have a logical discussion with this member, he knows he is out gunned and refuses to respond directly to the question and he doesn't seem to even read or comprehend the replies you both have posted.

Maybe it's not his fault, maybe he has trouble with reading and comprehension, because all of your replies have been very clearly worded and well written and still he seems to not understand. :confused:

Rick-F
02-11-2008, 08:53 AM
I certainly would buy a USED Combo or Twin disc-- if were about the same price (pennies) as the single format I wanted . . .

BobY
02-11-2008, 09:37 AM
Fuck off you kiss up son of a bitch. Why don't you mind your own fucking business.

How about this. No I wouldn't buy that car. No, that better for you FUCKS?

Also you know I am right in that why buy something if your not going to use it. If your not going to go HD why be forced to buy it? You shouldn't have to be. Just like I shouldn't be forced to buy movies with extras in them. I have to currently, but I shouldn't have to.

Also you know I am right in saying why buy something in HD if you don't have HD. Yeah you maybe planning on going HD and lets say you are, but until then you don't have anything HD so why by the content in HD when you cannot watch it. Save your money and buy the equipment first, then the content.

Also you truly haven't proven that twin discs can be cheaper. Ok made the same with the same machines doesn't make them cheaper, there is still an HD version and SD version. It is going to cost the same and I'd like you to prove me wrong, but you haven't yet. All you have is speculation. No actual proof. If you can prove that these "TWIN DISCS" will cost exactly as much as a regular DVD then ok, but you can't.

We don't need to prove anything. This is a hypothetical situation as the TL TWINs are not on the market yet. You asked why someone would buy them and we answered it.

The answers are completely reasonable and if you believe consumers would balk at buying something and getting additional features they didn't need without having to pay any more money, we have so far cited cars and Full-Screen/Widescreen combo DVD's as examples that prove most consumers just don't share your opinion.

What difference does it make whether you would buy a new car or not or what features you consider a must-have? That has nothing to do with this discussion. Obviously if the TL TWINs never come to market or they are overpriced, consumers won't buy them. Your question wasn't how likely that was to happen, but why anyone would buy them and we answered. If you don't understand the answers or don't agree with them, you don't need to call us names.

unotis
02-11-2008, 09:40 AM
Fuck off you kiss up son of a bitch. Why don't you mind your own fucking business.

How about this. No I wouldn't buy that car. No, that better for you FUCKS?


Again, you did not reply to his question int he form he presented it and if you are incapable of holding an intelligent well thought out discussion please do not lower the forum by resorting to foul language.

If you want to continue to be a valued member of the forum, you need to grow up a little bit.

LazerGuided
02-11-2008, 10:28 AM
Again, you did not reply to his question int he form he presented it and if you are incapable of holding an intelligent well thought out discussion please do not lower the forum by resorting to foul language.

If you want to continue to be a valued member of the forum, you need to grow up a little bit.

And you need to get off your high horse and step down from your podium. Your not someone with authority on this board so don't try and tell me what I can and cannot do. Also if I get banned from this board it isn't the end of the world. There are other forums out there and also most likely I can come back to this board by just making another user name if this current one is banned. If they IP ban me I can still come back via Proxy Servers if I wanted to. So don't threaten me.

I answered his question. I answered it again. No I wouldn't buy the car. Also in any event the car comments have been stupid and pointless in this thread. So why go on with them. Just drop the subject.

He has some points and I have some points. Both are valid. However he hasn't truly answered my question either about proving that they will cost less. Because guess what he can't prove that. All he can go on is that they are saying this and that, when in reality they are going to cost just as much as an HD DVD / DVD combo disc cost now or even just a plain old HD DVD or Blu-ray. There are still two formats on one disc thusly it is still going to cost more even if the production of said disc is the same as a SD DVD.

Also the link I provided to the Anime Twin Disc does say it is HD. Thusly they are making them with HD content at least in some degree. That Twin Disc costs basically $40 which is more then most HD DVD / DVD combo discs, HD DVD's and Blu-rays. Ok yeah Anime is a niche market, even still it proves that they cost more.

Also if you don't have anything to add to the conversation other then your opinions and bullshit why don't you just leave. Or are you one of those band wagon guys that has to jump on every time.

However I am done talking about it now.

BobY
02-11-2008, 11:22 AM
Sigh.

You didn't start out asking us to prove what they would cost. No one can "prove" that at this point. All one can do is look at the facts and extrapolate. HD DVD is cheaper to produce than Blu-Ray, Multi-layer discs are cheaper to produce than combo discs, prices drop drastically in high volume production and it was the intent of the DVD Forum to design them so they would ultimately be as cheap to produce as multi-layer DVD's currently are.

You started out asking why someone who didn't have an HD DVD player would buy them and we answered it. If your question was why would someone who didn't have an HD DVD player buy them if they were a lot more expensive than DVD's, the answer is they wouldn't buy them.

You're welcome to believe they will cost a lot more, but that doesn't negate our answers, which are based on our unprovable assumptions, not your unprovable assumptions.

unotis
02-11-2008, 12:30 PM
BobY, forget it he doesn't listen or probably doesn't want to.

PFC5
02-11-2008, 06:30 PM
The sad thing is that it really didn't NEED to come down to this name calling. LASERGUIDED has usually been a good and decent poster, so I will not hold this outburst against him for future opinion.

I guess it is just better to drop this as we are at an impasse. Too bad this had to happen though. :banghead: