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Simple question... is upscaling worth it?

imanta
03-10-2007, 01:53 AM
So we have a really nice high-end Sharp LCD and I was at Costco today and was taken with the Sony Upscaling DVD player. Before I get all excited I really want to know is all the upscaling hype really worth it. It is full HDMI and should integrate well, but is it really going to look any different?

We do need a new DVD player, so even if they upscaling isn't worth it are there really any downsides?

Thanks.

BobY
03-10-2007, 10:30 AM
Only you can decide is something is worth it, but here are the facts:

1) Any display you could use the Sony DVD player with will upscale SD images on it's own--it doesn't need the player to upscale.

2) In some cases, the scaler in a DVD player may do a better job than the scaler in the display. You can only judge that by looking at it for yourself.

3) Whether it's "worth it" depends on how much better the upscaled player output looks compared to non-upscaled and how much more the upscaling player costs than a regular DVD player.

4) Generally there aren't any downsides to an upscaling player, although in some cases there are problems getting the aspect ratio of SD content to display properly. I've heard of people having problems with displays (Sony in particular), which lock-out the various screen options (stretch, zoom) when displaying HD signals from HDMI sources. They assume that any signal coming from HDMI at 1080i or 720p is a real HD signal (which are all widescreen) and they end up distorting the aspect ratio of SD content upscaled to 1080i or 720p. Since the various screen modes are locked out, you can't correct the problem. Make sure you try it out with letterbox and full-screen DVD's to make sure they can be set to display properly.

maicaw
03-10-2007, 01:36 PM
YES Simple question... is up-scaling worth it?.There are many different and useful flags and other bits of information - besides the actual video that are encoded into the Mpeg data on the DVD - (inter-frame) motion vectors probably being the most important - -
The upscaler in the DVD player has access to all of that data - and good ones like Sony, Oppo, Denon use it to visible advantage-when up-scaling the 480 signal to 1080 (IMO 720 up-scaling doesn't look nearly as good as 1080)
On the other hand -
When the DVD is decoded to 480p and then sent to the HDTV as an uncompressed 480p video signal - all of that useful information has been removed and the HDTV must guess when doing the 480p (uncompressed video) to 1080 conversion -what mathematical acrobatics the (DVD mastering) encoder employed in constructing the highly compressed MPeg2 data stream on the DVD - The mastering encoder actually employs a "auditing" decoder and looks at it's output and modifies the encoding parameters -"on the fly"- what DCT compromises it considers likely to produce the optimal final uncompressed version of the original video - so the upstream DVD data has those parameters embedded in the stream - the uncompressed (HDMI) data does not -
Curiously -
The vociferous opinion on this forum SHOUTS- up-scaling players are useless :rolleyes: -
(e.g. You can't "create" higher definition than 480p)--

------Unless you have a Toshiba HDDVD player - ----
then - it is the Holy Grail and Sliced bread of "SDDVD high Definition":bowdown: -

Other forums seem to be more cognizant - and receptive - of the technological advantages of up-scaling DVD decoders compared to the up-scaling video processors in the HDTV

Buy the Sony player - If it doesn't look better sending 1080 to your set than outputting 480p -give it back to Costco - I'm 10:1 you'll see the difference -particularly in the shadows and compare the detail of moving objects - 480p tends to smudge the contrast of moving objects (faces) for about ¼-½ second and then recovers the detail - up-scaled SD and HDDVD minimizes this compared to regular 480p up-scaled in the HDTV IMO

For what it's worth - I have a Toshiba XA1 and an Oppo 971 (besides an old unused Samsung 841) variously feeding a 34"XBRCRT and a new 52" Sharp 120~ refresh LCD -

I think the Oppo (HDMI) give the best SD DVD 1080 picture (better than the up-scaling of the XA1 or the internal upscaling of the 120~ Sharp - from a well encoded (high bit-rate SD-DVD (meaning usually a Super-bit SDDVD)-

I even have a DVHS recorder that up-scales VHS tapes to 480p (HDMI) - sometimes with surprisingly good results:p

suzbwise
03-10-2007, 03:13 PM
I guess I'll jump into this and add my few cents. . .

We have an LG upconverting DVD player - we can choose to play in 480p or 720p (IMO 720progressive looks better than 1080interlaced) - I'm sure there are better upconverters that will do 1080p (yes?) - we bought the DVD player before we upgraded to a 1080p LCD tv.

Anyway, we see a remarkable difference - especially with newer DVDs. Some of the older ones still look great on a large screen, but there is not much gain in the upconversion. We just leave it set for 720p for everything.

End result - we are *very* happy with our upconverting DVD (didn't want to invest in BluRay or HDDVD just yet - I'm watching the prices on players that do it all!) We only spent about $100, so it was a little more than just a regular DVD player - I'd say it's worth it.

(That's worth a few cents, eh?)

- Suzanne.

PS - Remember you will only get the upconverting if you use an HDMI cable - that's a little extra money, if you don't have one yet. We connected our digital cable box with component cables, which works great. (Especially since we didn't need the audio - we go right to our sound system for TV and use the sound system PLUS the TV's audio for DVDs.)

BobY
03-10-2007, 08:08 PM
Well, some of the upscalers in DVD players utilize the encoding information, others don't and are just interpolators hanging on the output--particularly the cheap ones.

Suzbwise-

Just for the sake of clarity, since you bought your DVD player before you bought an HD display, are you saying you see a remarkable difference between the output upscaled by the DVD player versus the output upscaled by the display, or just between SD and upscaled SD?

PFC5
03-11-2007, 01:11 PM
YESThere are many different and useful flags and other bits of information - besides the actual video that are encoded into the Mpeg data on the DVD - (inter-frame) motion vectors probably being the most important - -
The upscaler in the DVD player has access to all of that data - and good ones like Sony, Oppo, Denon use it to visible advantage-when up-scaling the 480 signal to 1080 (IMO 720 up-scaling doesn't look nearly as good as 1080)
On the other hand -
When the DVD is decoded to 480p and then sent to the HDTV as an uncompressed 480p video signal - all of that useful information has been removed and the HDTV must guess when doing the 480p (uncompressed video) to 1080 conversion -what mathematical acrobatics the (DVD mastering) encoder employed in constructing the highly compressed MPeg2 data stream on the DVD - The mastering encoder actually employs a "auditing" decoder and looks at it's output and modifies the encoding parameters -"on the fly"- what DCT compromises it considers likely to produce the optimal final uncompressed version of the original video - so the upstream DVD data has those parameters embedded in the stream - the uncompressed (HDMI) data does not -
Curiously -
The vociferous opinion on this forum SHOUTS- up-scaling players are useless :rolleyes: -
(e.g. You can't "create" higher definition than 480p)--

------Unless you have a Toshiba HDDVD player - ----
then - it is the Holy Grail and Sliced bread of "SDDVD high Definition":bowdown: -

Other forums seem to be more cognizant - and receptive - of the technological advantages of up-scaling DVD decoders compared to the up-scaling video processors in the HDTV

Buy the Sony player - If it doesn't look better sending 1080 to your set than outputting 480p -give it back to Costco - I'm 10:1 you'll see the difference -particularly in the shadows and compare the detail of moving objects - 480p tends to smudge the contrast of moving objects (faces) for about - second and then recovers the detail - up-scaled SD and HDDVD minimizes this compared to regular 480p up-scaled in the HDTV IMO

For what it's worth - I have a Toshiba XA1 and an Oppo 971 (besides an old unused Samsung 841) variously feeding a 34"XBRCRT and a new 52" Sharp 120~ refresh LCD -

I think the Oppo (HDMI) give the best SD DVD 1080 picture (better than the up-scaling of the XA1 or the internal upscaling of the 120~ Sharp - from a well encoded (high bit-rate SD-DVD (meaning usually a Super-bit SDDVD)-

I even have a DVHS recorder that up-scales VHS tapes to 480p (HDMI) - sometimes with surprisingly good results:p

I never knew this, so maybe there is "something" to the upscaling being done in the DVD player. :eek:

Thanks maicaw!

daleb
03-11-2007, 03:28 PM
I think the Oppo (HDMI) give the best SD DVD 1080 picture (better than the up-scaling of the XA1

I thought this initially, but after more viewing of my SDs on the XA1 I don't agree. Not a huge diff, but the ones I watch on the XA1 seem to have less variation from one SD DVD to another than was the case with the Oppo. Unless a particular disk is exceptionally good or bad.

joey hd loving
03-11-2007, 04:48 PM
I thought this initially, but after more viewing of my SDs on the XA1 I don't agree. Not a huge diff, but the ones I watch on the XA1 seem to have less variation from one SD DVD to another than was the case with the Oppo. Unless a particular disk is exceptionally good or bad.
i disagree got a denon 3930 and what the upscaler can do for u its ..................1 word perfect




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soo its deff worth it tha upscaler

suzbwise
03-11-2007, 04:53 PM
Suzbwise-

Just for the sake of clarity, since you bought your DVD player before you bought an HD display, are you saying you see a remarkable difference between the output upscaled by the DVD player versus the output upscaled by the display, or just between SD and upscaled SD?

Sorry about that - here's my experience:

Started with all standard def stuff - tv, dvd player, etc - had cable box with digital channels and HD, so we bought LCD tvs.

The smaller one is a 26" Sharp Aquos - we are very pleased. Of course, it immediately made standard def (SD) look great, and high def (HD) is awesome! However, we had to set the cable box to only use 480p or 720p. (It would try all resolutions by default, so 480i looks worse until you choose 480p - progressive scan.)

For the larger tv, a 37" HP (LC3760N) - that looked great too (except we had color adjustment issues - more on that later.) We played DVDs (the old payer) and movies looked fantastic! (NOTE - neither set will 'upconvert'. I know some Sony models do, as well as a Mitsubishi, but most tvs do not.)

Since we didn't have a DVD player for the smaller tv, we shopped around a bit and found 'up-converting' players at resonable prices to use on the larger set. We chose the LG because it can play so many formats, including DVDs we burn...

Anyway, we connected the DVD player with composit cables, since we had those already - just to see how it worked. We found it would only play 480p unless we used an HDMI cable - once we used that cable, the player will upconvert to 720p (or 1080i, but I prefer 720p.) So watching the same movie in 720p, instead of 480p, is *really great* - especially with newer movies.

Then there was the HP color problem. We couldn't tone it down at all. We got glowing (or nuclear!) or B&W. Ultimately, we bought a 42" Sony with 1080p (but did not get the BR2 or BR3 which, I understand, processes all signals and upconverts to 1080p - those were too pricey for our budget.)

So, at the end of the day, progressive scan is twice as good as interlaced (standard def); the more pixels the better (480p, 720p, 1080p); DVDs look amazing - upconverting even more so - now we can't wait for more HD tv channels and other stuff in 1080p! (Not ready to spring for HD DVD or BluRay yet.)

By the way, my brother (with all standard def stuff) absolutely LOVES his HD projector. He uses that for presentations from his laptop. Now he connects it to the laptop, which plays the DVDs, and projects onto a white sheet (stretched over his bookcase.) He gets 1080p and says it is crystal clear up to 96" diagonal!! Now *that's* home theater!! (about $2,000)

BobY
03-12-2007, 10:41 AM
Suzbwise-

Actually, both your Sharp Aquos and your HP LC3760N *do* upconvert SD.

*All* fixed pixel displays (LCD, Plasma) must upconvert lower resolution signals to match the native resolution of the display (I believe both of those displays are 1366 x 768 pixels). They also convert any interlaced signal to progressive.

In your case, the DVD player is upconverting 480i (720 x 480 pixels) to 720p (1280 x 720 pixels), then your display is upconverting the 720p to 1366 x 768 pixels. On your 1920 x 1080 display, you should get a better picture by setting the DVD player output to 1080i, as this will avoid forcing the display to upconvert 720p to 1920 x 1080. The display will show the image as 1080p. I suspect that you would pretty much get the same results by setting the DVD player to 480i and letting the display upconvert it to 1920 x 1080 progressive (providing you use the HDMI or Component Video connections).

You said you were using Composite Video before you had the upconverting player. More than likely the big improvement you saw has more to do with using the HDMI connection instead of the far inferior Composite Video connection. A similar improvement could probably be achieved using Component Video, which can carry either 480i or 480p, but most upconverting DVD players will only output 720p and 1080i over HDMI.

Anyhow, I'm glad you're happy with your setup, but when changing multiple variables, be careful what variables you attribute the improvements to.

Daleb-

The inconsistency you were seeing might relate to what Maicaw was talking about--the Oppo upscaler uses the embedded information on the disc (which will be disc dependent and therefore inconsistent), while perhaps the Toshiba doesn't use the embedded information but uses a more "generic" upscaler that works strictly with the decompressed image and therefore works consistently on any disc.

daleb
03-12-2007, 11:12 AM
Daleb-

The inconsistency you were seeing might relate to what Maicaw was talking about--the Oppo upscaler uses the embedded information on the disc (which will be disc dependent and therefore inconsistent), while perhaps the Toshiba doesn't use the embedded information but uses a more "generic" upscaler that works strictly with the decompressed image and therefore works consistently on any disc.

It may be generic, but does quite an incredible job for just a standard feature IMO.

joey hd loving: What is there to disagree about? I was not even using a Denon player in my comparison.

ja2935
03-12-2007, 11:12 AM
Good job guys - a very interesting and informative thread. Such a change from some of the current vindictive ones!

BobY
03-12-2007, 12:02 PM
Daleb-

I didn't mean "generic" in a bad sense, just that it handles the majority of discs equally well.

Most manufacturers and consumers prefer consistency to absolute quality. When Phillips first opened their TV manufacturing facility in the US, they found they were having more complaints on US-built sets for picture quality issues, despite the fact that the US-built sets had measurably higher absolute picture quality. When they finally got to the bottom of the issue, they discovered that the European-built sets were adjusted consistently to "typical" specs (to maximize the yield of shippable sets), while the US-built sets were further being "tweaked" by the production workers to look as good as they possibly could. That, however, varied from set to set and production run to production run, so consumers were seeing differences between their sets and the sets in stores and complaining.

Phillips had the US facility adjust the sets they built to the same standards as the European sets (so they could freely substitute when necessary) and despite having measurably lower PQ compared to the former "tweaked" sets, the complaints went away and Phillips was praised by dealers and consumers for solving the problem.

You may be reacting to the same thing. Your perception is the Toshiba is better because it's upconversion is good and consistent, while the Oppo (which may be better on specific discs on an absolute basis) may be inconsistent through no fault of it's own (other than by choosing an upscaling approach that is dependent on the disc itself, which is out of Oppo's control).

daleb
03-12-2007, 03:24 PM
Daleb-

I didn't mean "generic" in a bad sense, just that it handles the majority of discs equally well.

Most manufacturers and consumers prefer consistency to absolute quality. When Phillips first opened their TV manufacturing facility in the US, they found they were having more complaints on US-built sets for picture quality issues, despite the fact that the US-built sets had measurably higher absolute picture quality. When they finally got to the bottom of the issue, they discovered that the European-built sets were adjusted consistently to "typical" specs (to maximize the yield of shippable sets), while the US-built sets were further being "tweaked" by the production workers to look as good as they possibly could. That, however, varied from set to set and production run to production run, so consumers were seeing differences between their sets and the sets in stores and complaining.

Phillips had the US facility adjust the sets they built to the same standards as the European sets (so they could freely substitute when necessary) and despite having measurably lower PQ compared to the former "tweaked" sets, the complaints went away and Phillips was praised by dealers and consumers for solving the problem.

You may be reacting to the same thing. Your perception is the Toshiba is better because it's upconversion is good and consistent, while the Oppo (which may be better on specific discs on an absolute basis) may be inconsistent through no fault of it's own (other than by choosing an upscaling approach that is dependent on the disc itself, which is out of Oppo's control).


I did not take it that way. It is an accomplishment to handle the variation present in the DVD world, and reproduce it with consistency as you so well explain.

Similar analogy could be applied to the 970H and 981/971H Oppo players. The 970 being more 'generic' in it's processing and the other two being more a 'tweaker's player'. The additional tweaking afforded with the Faroudja process as implemented in the Oppo Digital can yield some very good results, again dependent on the original material.

And maybe with more tweaking I could equal the Tosh or maybe even better it on occasion, but granted, I don't want or need that degree of involvement for every movie I want to watch in SD.

SegueImaging
03-12-2007, 04:19 PM
Ok! To decide which is better than the other, how does one force a display to execute the up-convert job (rather than the DVD player doing the job)?

SegueImaging
03-12-2007, 04:21 PM
Ok! To decide which is better than the other, how does one force a display to execute the up-convert job (rather than the DVD player doing the job)?

maicaw
03-12-2007, 05:03 PM
Ok! To decide which is better than the other, how does one force a display to execute the up-convert job (rather than the DVD player doing the job)?set the output of the player to 480p rather than 1080 or 720 - RT*M to see which button and menu to use.

18 is # 1
03-15-2007, 12:52 AM
Ok! To decide which is better than the other, how does one force a display to execute the up-convert job (rather than the DVD player doing the job)?

You can't force your display, but you can force your input...
I found a visable difference as well!

fiestaMojo
03-19-2007, 11:36 AM
a dumb (I think) question - are there any upscaling DVD players which use component video out?

maicaw
03-19-2007, 12:10 PM
...I even have a DVHS recorder that up-scales VHS tapes to 480p (HDMI) - sometimes with surprisingly good results:pJust want to correct and add to that that statement - it's 480i on HDMI and 480p on Component - works superb for hand drawn animated features IMO
I had an very old Fantasia VHS tape and the animated parts looked quite good using 480i HDMI (digitized by the player) - so I stuck my Beauty and the Beast in and WOW - - on the 52" 1920x1080 Sharp LCD - it looked like a DVD at the very least no jaggies, judder, halos, dot crawl etc. and great color resolution

I'm gonna dig thru those old Disney (hand drawn) VHS tapes and see what else I discover thru the "magic of VHS HDMI conversion and competent deinterlacing in the HDTV.

BobY
03-19-2007, 12:34 PM
FiestaMojo,

Yes, but I forget which ones. There aren't many and some require you to know the special secret code that let's you do it.

You could search the archives at this forum or maybe someone else here knows off the top of their head.

There is no technical reason why all players couldn't upscale over Component Video--preventing it is strictly a copy protection scheme. The HDMI ports use HDCP protocol to prevent digital copies, but there is no way to prevent analog copies and I guess the studios don't want you to make copies of upscaled DVD's that might look better than theirs :D

18 is # 1
03-20-2007, 10:49 AM
Fiesta,

The Oppo 970 has a firmware hack available to allow component upscaling at 720p and 1080i. I use it and save my HDMI for my DVR.
Works Great!

Rick-F
03-20-2007, 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicaw
I think the Oppo (HDMI) give the best SD DVD 1080 picture (better than the up-scaling of the XA1


I thought this initially, but after more viewing of my SDs on the XA1 I don't agree. Not a huge diff, but the ones I watch on the XA1 seem to have less variation from one SD DVD to another than was the case with the Oppo. Unless a particular disk is exceptionally good or bad.
__________________
Sony KDF-55WF655, Outlaw pre/pro, B&K amp., M&K 5.1 system, Plauteau stands, Audiosource 100X1 amp with buttkickers Ideal Lume ambient lamp, Kimber speaker cables, Bluejeans interconnects, Toshiba X-A1 HD DVD player
----------------------------------
Are you using the Sony KDF-55WF655 to judge the 1080 picture? You really shouldn't -- it is not a 1080P display . . .

suzbwise
03-21-2007, 11:49 AM
Suzbwise-

Actually, both your Sharp Aquos and your HP LC3760N *do* upconvert SD.

*All* fixed pixel displays (LCD, Plasma) must upconvert lower resolution signals to match the native resolution of the display (I believe both of those displays are 1366 x 768 pixels). They also convert any interlaced signal to progressive.


BobY - I disagree with you!!! While you are correct that my sets have higher native resolution than SD (one is 1366x768, the other is 1920x1080), they DO NOT upconvert anything. They display whatever resolution is being *sent* to them, up to their best resolution. If I have my cable box set to 480i (SD), that's all I get - only it is larger and spread out over the larger screen. That's why so many people start out being disappointed with their new sets. Once they change the input - to a progressive scan player, for example - which instantly makes the image *twice* as good! - or if setting the cable box to 480p or 720p - that will change the image quality.

I also disagree with you as to the interlaced to progressive 'conversion'. It's true that a digital set does not have to interlace the image (remember the flicker, especially when filming an old TV set?) but there is a world of difference between seeing an image at 480i and 480p; however, it is *totally* dependent upon the input!

suzbwise
03-21-2007, 12:05 PM
On your 1920 x 1080 display, you should get a better picture by setting the DVD player output to 1080i, as this will avoid forcing the display to upconvert 720p to 1920 x 1080. The display will show the image as 1080p. I suspect that you would pretty much get the same results by setting the DVD player to 480i and letting the display upconvert it to 1920 x 1080 progressive (providing you use the HDMI or Component Video connections).


===============
Again, I disagree! While it may be true for some sets, this is definitely NOT the case with any (of the three) that I tested. (Sharp, HP, Sony). The image looks *much* better in 480p vs 480i; looks *much* better in 720p vs 480p; but does NOT look better in 1080i vs 720p. In my case, I do not have an HDDVD nor a BluRay, so I have nothing that will send an input of 1080 (even though my set can display 1080p.)

Also, I think you are confusing the 'native resolution' with what you actually get to see. If an input (such as a cable box) is set to 480, the LCD will adjust it's mode to display that low resolution (just spread out.) If an input is high resolution (high definition, HD) then the LCD will change modes to accommodate *that* resolution. There is no 'up-converting' happening, however.

BobY
03-21-2007, 12:17 PM
If that's how your displays work, they are broken :D

All fixed-pixel HD displays (LCD, Plasma) use interpolation to upconvert or downconvert any signal that is not the same resolution as their native resolution (the actual, physical, fixed number of pixels on the panel itself). They have to, or they would not be able to display it.

If you took an SD signal of 720 x 480, the only size you could "blow it up to" without using interpolation is 1440 x 960 (2X) or some other simple multiple of 720 x 480. Upconverting using interpolation is the same process used by upconverting DVD players, although some use more sophisticated algorithms which preserve edge details that can be "smoothed over" with simple interpolation.

An upconverted SD signal still won't look as good as a true HD signal, where the image was captured with higher resolution and therefore has more fine details.

Virtually all fixed-pixel displays are progressive, they will de-interlace an interlaced signal into a progressive image about as well as any progressive scan DVD player will. Progressive scan DVD players do not have higher resoltuion than interlaced (they both produce a 720 x 480 pixel image).

I suspect the reason people notice a big difference between interlaced and progressive scan DVD players when viewed on a fixed-pixel display is that they hook up their interlaced DVD players using Composite Video, which has the worst quality of all the connections, but they have no choice with their progressive scan DVD player other than to hook up using the dramatically higher quality Component Video or HDMI connections (as Composite Video and S-Video do not support progressive scan).

suzbwise
03-21-2007, 01:24 PM
If that's how your displays work, they are broken

All fixed-pixel HD displays (LCD, Plasma) use interpolation to upconvert or downconvert any signal that is not the same resolution as their native resolution. They have to, or they would not be able to display it.

If you took an SD signal of 720 x 480, the only size you could "blow it up to" without using interpolation is 1440 x 960 (2X) or some other simple multiple of 720 x 480. Upconverting using interpolation is the same process used by upconverting DVD players, although some use more sophisticated algorithms which preserve edge details that can be "smoothed over" with simple interpolation.


Oh gee I don't want to argue with you you seem like a very smart (and polite!) guy. . . I have to disagree, again, though. In one way, we are saying the same thing a 'conversion' has to take place to make the input appear across the screen in order to use all those pixels. I still maintain there is no 'up' converting happening on the set (unless you have a very expensive Sony, for example, that will truly process the image and improve it.) The 'conversion' will simply spread the image across the screen. One example of this: if a computer program outputs at 640x480 (such as an old game) the display will either use a small window of 640x480 or, if you want it to spread across a display having a 'native resolution' of 1280x1024, the image will have crude edges it won't be any smoother or clearer just larger.

Another example is to tune to an HD program. Notice that many of the commercials are shown in SD the difference in quality is readily seen. In both cases, the image fills the screen, but the HD has clear, crisp edges while the SD has crude, 'clunky' edges and many artifacts. Now if I had invested twice the money, I could have purchased the Sony XBR3 which includes an expensive processor for those more sophisticated algorithms!

PFC5
03-21-2007, 04:03 PM
suzbwise:

Sorry but you are wrong, and it has nothing to do with it being made by Sony or any other mfg. Fixed pixel displays have only ONE resolution. That is why they are called "FIXED" pixel displays. LCD panels ARE fixed pixel displays and as such, MUST convert everything to THAT fixed pixel resolution. ALL fixed pixel displays have the electronics to convert all signals to the native resolution. The differences you are noticing is HOW they do it. Some have lousy electronics that do it, and others have excellent electronics to do this. That is why you pay more for some LCD panels over others. It is not the ONLY reason you can pay more but it contributes to that additional cost. I think there are only 3-4 mfg of the LCD panels and it is the electronics that make the most difference in how good that panel looks.

When you have a upscaling SD DVD player that does a better job than your display, THEN you WILL see an improvement by having the player do the upscaling instead of a cheaper LCD (or any other pixel pixel display) doing it.

Trust me, BobY is one of the smartest guys on this site when it comes to this type of discussion so hopefully you will realize that you are mistaken or were given the wrong info by someone (maybe BB/CC salesmen?). Either way, he is correct and you are wrong about this. I am not trying to make you feel bad or get you angry, but if I told you that mice are bigger than dogs what would you say?

What is IS, and if you do not want to believe it then more power to you.

Rick-F
03-21-2007, 04:43 PM
PFC5: "Sorry but you are wrong, and it has nothing to do with it being made by Sony or any other mfg. Fixed pixel displays have only ONE resolution. That is why they are called "FIXED" pixel displays. LCD panels ARE fixed pixel displays and as such, MUST convert everything to THAT fixed pixel resolution. ALL fixed pixel displays have the electronics to convert all signals to the native resolution."

YES, PFC5-- this why all SD contents look the same as HD content!! Give us a break here . . .

18 is # 1
03-22-2007, 04:53 PM
YES, PFC5-- this why all SD contents look the same as HD content!! Give us a break here . . .

They do look the same... on teny tiny sets!

PFC5
03-22-2007, 06:14 PM
PFC5: "Sorry but you are wrong, and it has nothing to do with it being made by Sony or any other mfg. Fixed pixel displays have only ONE resolution. That is why they are called "FIXED" pixel displays. LCD panels ARE fixed pixel displays and as such, MUST convert everything to THAT fixed pixel resolution. ALL fixed pixel displays have the electronics to convert all signals to the native resolution."

YES, PFC5-- this why all SD contents look the same as HD content!! Give us a break here . . .

No because upscaling a SD source does not add original content but an algorythm is used to interpolate the extra pixels. In other words, it makes data up to add those extra pixels.

You also took my comment out of context about SD vs HD. Go back and read what he said THEN you should understand what I meant.

suzbwise
03-27-2007, 12:10 AM
PFC5 -

You are so funny!

(And if *you* tell me that mice are bigger than dogs, I'd say that you need "better electronics"!!)

PFC5
03-27-2007, 12:48 PM
lol :D

Lee Stewart
04-01-2007, 11:05 AM
PFC5: "Sorry but you are wrong, and it has nothing to do with it being made by Sony or any other mfg. Fixed pixel displays have only ONE resolution. That is why they are called "FIXED" pixel displays. LCD panels ARE fixed pixel displays and as such, MUST convert everything to THAT fixed pixel resolution. ALL fixed pixel displays have the electronics to convert all signals to the native resolution."

YES, PFC5-- this why all SD contents look the same as HD content!! Give us a break here . . .

Please tell me what SD source you are using to get SD content to look as good as HD? I really want to know, cause whatever you are using. . I WANT ONE TOO!

SD - 360,000 pixels

HD - 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 pixels.

unotis
04-01-2007, 12:44 PM
They do look the same... on teny tiny sets!

LOL! :D

Lee Stewart
04-01-2007, 01:33 PM
LOL! :D

I already have a 5" color TV . . . I want what he has!:hithere:

BobY
04-01-2007, 03:50 PM
Uhm, I think Rick-F was being sarcastic, but he didn't understand PFC5's point...

Anyhow, Bruford says (well at least he used to say) if you take a DVD that was "Mastered in HD" and play it on an upscaling player it looks the same as HD. Well, at least on a display where you can't tell the difference :D.

kegobeer
04-01-2007, 04:04 PM
Anyhow, Bruford says (well at least he used to say) if you take a DVD that was "Mastered in HD" and play it on an upscaling player it looks the same as HD. Well, at least on a display where you can't tell the difference :D.

Shhhhh! We don't want to get him started again!

Lee Stewart
04-01-2007, 06:13 PM
Shhhhh! We don't want to get him started again!

Geez . . DON'T do that!

dukefreak12
05-06-2007, 05:54 PM
Fiesta,

The Oppo 970 has a firmware hack available to allow component upscaling at 720p and 1080i. I use it and save my HDMI for my DVR.
Works Great!

This happens to be a problem for me right now. I bought a samsung upconverting DVD player. The problem is my HDTV, like almost all the others, only has 1 HDMI input and I am using that for my HD receiver.

It kinda stinks but unless I want to switch the HDMI all the time, I am forced to use component for my HDTV watching:(

Also one question. I was under the impression that widescreen DVDs would fill the whole screen on a 16:9 asoect ratio TV. Why doesnt it?? I mean I still have black bars across the top, and my TV is WIDESCREEN.:what:

18 is # 1
05-07-2007, 12:37 AM
This happens to be a problem for me right now. I bought a samsung upconverting DVD player. The problem is my HDTV, like almost all the others, only has 1 HDMI input and I am using that for my HD receiver.

It kinda stinks but unless I want to switch the HDMI all the time, I am forced to use component for my HDTV watching:(

Also one question. I was under the impression that widescreen DVDs would fill the whole screen on a 16:9 asoect ratio TV. Why doesnt it?? I mean I still have black bars across the top, and my TV is WIDESCREEN.:what:
It has to do with the aspect ratio of the indvidual disc. Search for aspect ratios to find a more detailed explanation. You may want to look into manual and auto HDMI switchers.

sasngang
06-04-2007, 08:41 AM
Do I need an Upscaling receiver to get the most from our Optima HD70 projector???? Or will the Upscaling in the projector do the same job? I would like to upscale all of our video sources to 720p at the projector. As the system is now, I notice that the projector will resize any of our images, but there is considerable fuzziness. Is that because the projector is using an inferior scaler? Will a higher end AV Receiver do a better job in the upscaling process?

We are putting together our 1st HD theater in our new home. Starting out with a dedicated 13 x 20 room, wired for 7.1 sound and a projector. Already have Optima HD70 projector (720p). Need receiver to put it all together...

The AVRs that I'm looking at are the Yamaha RX-V2700 (does upscaling) OR Denon RXV3806 (does not upscale).

Balance of system is: Infinity Kappa 6's for mains, Infinity minuettes for surrounds and center, DIY sub, Pioneer SACD/DVD, HD cable box (time warner), and a sony hi-fi VCR.

Blow_Ray
09-01-2007, 07:51 PM
I agree with suzbwise
People are starting to find out... to get an up conversion you need a good 720p up-converting player... and a TV that has good scailer! You need both working for you, like a Sony, Panny or Poineer! Trust me on this one. If you have just the player in 720 it won't look as good if your set does not have a fixed pixel resolution, and the picture won't look HD if you have a fixed pixel display and a DVD player in 480p. I have done both scenarios.
You need both working for you plus the RIGHT DISKS!
Especially if your player is in 720p and you have a 768p set. The DVD player is converting it to 720p and then the set is taking the 720p and scaling it to 768p with the sets up converter. You need to upscale the signal twice.
Disks that are not transfered in HD will never upconvert. They were transferred from early generation digital copy processing.
Please read my latest post on how to get HD quality from todays Anamorphic disks!

http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=47927

Blow_Ray
09-02-2007, 03:35 PM
Please see my post

http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=50040