NASCAR- Making this up as they go?

Seems like every year they change the chase rules. They want to make things more exciting, OK, but what's the deal with them not throwing the yellow at Daytona when 90% of the field is crashing? Did they want the young "marketable" guy to win, as opposed to the semi-retired Mark Martin? I know NASCAR's #1 product is marketing, but the arbitrary and random way they run the sport is getting old.

The crash was BEHIND the leaders. It in no way affected their abilityto race for the checkered flag. They only had about 1000 yards to go.

Yes I believe everyone was rooting for Mark Martin to win but IF theyahd thrown the yellow, I believe millions of people would have cried "Foul . . .they gave the race to MM. . .it was a token win"

Sort of like what happened when Paul Newman won the Best Actor Award for THE COLOR OF MONEY. . . no real acting . . .a bad movie, . . . but he had lost so many times in the past when maybe he should have won that they decided he is an award winning actor. . .give him the damn award.

After that incredible finish to the Craftsman Truck race, NASCASR made a good decision in my opinion. Everyone was on their feet to watch and cheer the winner.

As an avid watcher of NASCAR, nothing more boring than watching the winner of a race cross the finish line 10 seconds ahead of #2.

That is why my primary passion is Drag Racing where inches and 1/1000 of a second can decide the winner.

Oh and by the way . . . having HD cameras INSIDE the cars is unbelievable!!!!

A 500 mile race was decided by 2 feet, want more do ya want???

A 500 mile race was decided by 2 feet, want more do ya want???

I want F1 to start up again rather than this good old boys crap LOL. I can just hear it now that Toyota is in teh series and they finnished so poorly all teh good southern boys that cried about them getting into the sport are now laughing and saying the all mighty I told you a jap manufacturer couldn't hang with the big boys. Please F1 start your season earlier....

You know, I had a really hard time figuring out which car was a Toyota, and which was a Ford, and which was a Chevy.

You know they all look the same to me.

And what kind of a powerplant were those Toyota's running?

Wasn't aware the that Toyota was available with a small block V-8 with a four barrel carb for induction.

Due to the rules of NASCAR, anyone can get in (manufacturer wise) and about the only part of the car that has anything to do with that manufacturer . . . is their name on the door.

Same thing in Drag Racing. Toyota is now involved as a team sponsor on a Funny Car . . . with no Toyota parts on it . . .same as all the other cars. The lift up body does look "a little" like a Toyota . . .but only dead on.

I don't know what southern boys you are talking about. The southern boys inside NASCAR are all excited about Toys being in the races. They realize that Toy cars will bring a lot of new excitement to the series. And as Darrell says, the Toys (Camery) are the only cars in the race that are built in the USA!

I don't know what southern boys you are talking about. The southern boys inside NASCAR are all excited about Toys being in the races. They realize that Toy cars will bring a lot of new excitement to the series. And as Darrell says, the Toys (Camery) are the only cars in the race that are built in the USA!

There was a big thing on wind tunnel one night after Toyota announced that thye were going to be running the series and Despain was flooded with phone calls and e mails and so on from disgruntled fans in the south about how they shouldn't be able to join the ranks as they were not an American car company and crap like that. One thing Toyota has shown me over the years of racing watching F1 is that they have tonnes of money to throw at it and never really produce much for all that money spent. F1 is a prime example they keep spending and spending they have the largest budget in F1 over 800 mil a season I think it was quoted at and they still haven't done squat in the series.

Judging by the reaction at the race and what I hear in Houston, those were not NASCAR fans so much as Toy haters. But we shall see over this season, I guess.

DSNY:

One thing Toyota has shown me over the years of racing watching F1 is that they have tonnes of money to throw at it and never really produce much for all that money spent. F1 is a prime example they keep spending and spending they have the largest budget in F1 over 800 mil a season I think it was quoted at and they still haven't done squat in the series.

Sounds like your favorite Manufacturer isn't doing well and you wish they would do better.

You know, I had a really hard time figuring out which car was a Toyota, and which was a Ford, and which was a Chevy.

You know they all look the same to me.

And what kind of a powerplant were those Toyota's running?

Wasn't aware the that Toyota was available with a small block V-8 with a four barrel carb for induction.

Due to the rules of NASCAR, anyone can get in (manufacturer wise) and about the only part of the car that has anything to do with that manufacturer . . . is their name on the door.

Same thing in Drag Racing. Toyota is now involved as a team sponsor on a Funny Car . . . with no Toyota parts on it . . .same as all the other cars. The lift up body does look "a little" like a Toyota . . .but only dead on.
Hell yea bro...I think it was like '68 when they released their first,a 3.0L V8,then in '69 I believe it bacame the 5.0L that some 20 years later would go into the Lexus LS 400. I believe currently they are using a 5.9L for the Nascar series...not a huge Nascar fan but I do follow some maybe if im wrong Im sure a more devoted fan will correct mehttp://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/112_0701_nascar_toyota/photo_05.html

Complete with Holley/Demon 4 barrel.

If this is so and they are using there own long block as Ford and Chevy and Dodge do then great.

I wish them good luck.

DSNY:

One thing Toyota has shown me over the years of racing watching F1 is that they have tonnes of money to throw at it and never really produce much for all that money spent. F1 is a prime example they keep spending and spending they have the largest budget in F1 over 800 mil a season I think it was quoted at and they still haven't done squat in the series.

Sounds like your favorite Manufacturer isn't doing well and you wish they would do better.

Actually I hate Toyota and I hate NASCAR I am a Ferrari Fan in F1 and Corvette and Caddy and BMW in Le Mans series racing those are the only types of auto racing I even consider to be good racing. All roadcourses no ovals where all you do is turn left all day atleast in Cart the majority of the races are road/street courses unlike IRL and Nascar. I mean how good do you really have to be to turn left all afternoon honestly. No offense to the nascar fans but I just can't call it racing when you drive in circles making the same left tun and never have to trun right or throw in a hairpin or chicane etc.

Hey my passion is Drag Racing - no turning at all!

Hey my passion is Drag Racing - no turning at all!

Atleast in dragracing it takes the measure of the man behind the wheel and his reaction time bad reaction time = you go home I commend them it isn't an easy thing to do to be on the tree as close to perfect every pass and home your car doesn't let you down in the 8 seconds or less depending on your class and bracket.

I hear you F91. I thought they got rid of "racing back to the line ", a few years ago. Is there a little known rule that says "not including the last lap". the purpose of the caution flag to to slow the competitors down due to potential for disaster. Although throwing the yellow may not have affected the outcome of the top 2, what about the 40 cars behind them that it would have been saved by the caution?

here is a suggestion. When you have a green white checkered finnish, drop the bottom 33 cars, send the to the garage. the top ten can race the final three laps "clean", just the way the chase happens at the end of the year. whichever make the rules the same throughout the event. Dont make exceptions just to suit the situation.

But that might not be good for ratings, which is what sports is really about.

I have to chime in about NASCAR guys. Look at my avatar (Tony Stewart for those of you who can't tell) and you'll se a REAL race car driver. Not just NASCAR but every car he get's into. Championship winner in just about every form of raceing. (IRL, Sprint, Nascar etc...) Now THAT'S a RACE CAR driver.

Actually I hate Toyota and I hate NASCAR I am a Ferrari Fan in F1 and Corvette and Caddy and BMW in Le Mans series racing those are the only types of auto racing I even consider to be good racing. All roadcourses no ovals where all you do is turn left all day atleast in Cart the majority of the races are road/street courses unlike IRL and Nascar. I mean how good do you really have to be to turn left all afternoon honestly. No offense to the nascar fans but I just can't call it racing when you drive in circles making the same left tun and never have to trun right or throw in a hairpin or chicane etc.
Then obviously you don't know much about the cars setups and really racing in general.

I have to chime in about NASCAR guys. Look at my avatar (Tony Stewart for those of you who can't tell) and you'll se a REAL race car driver. Not just NASCAR but every car he get's into. Championship winner in just about every form of raceing. (IRL, Sprint, Nascar etc...) Now THAT'S a RACE CAR driver.

Actually I cheer for TS when he runs the Le Mans races I still can't believe he left open wheel racing mind you he was running IRL another circle group.

More $$$ in NASCAR and he won in every other class he's ever raced in. More than likely another challenge for him. He'll drive anything if he gets a chance to.

Then obviously you don't know much about the cars setups and really racing in general.

How can you take it seriously when they are using outdated technology (still running a carb) and have only just swithced to unleaded fuel. Come on lets see some real technical innovation try running some fuel injection maybe try running the actual body from the stret car they are supposed to represent. How about more than 2 roadcourse events a season to give it some credability.

How can you take it seriously when they are using outdated technology (still running a carb) and have only just swithced to unleaded fuel. Come on lets see some real technical innovation try running some fuel injection maybe try running the actual body from the stret car they are supposed to represent. How about more than 2 roadcourse events a season to give it some credability.
NASCAR is SUPPOSEDLY trying to keep the cost down for race teams. Fuel injection will never happen. I agree about the bodies of the cars. It got totally out of hand. NASCAR used to years ago, give them some room...but not anymore. Wait until the run the CAR OF TOMORROW! Which in my estimation is a joke. They'll look nothing like what they look like now. I don't like the idea...and not sure the drivers like the idea either but the way it looks...that's the way NASCAR is going. It's going to be like the IROC series soon. They should let the teams come up with inovations on there own...and believe me, if NASCAR would let them do things there own way....the teams would.

I agree about the technical stuff FI will never happen and it is to bad because it should same with many other technical advancements with FI you can then get data management like many other series so you can adjust things as you go with the motor it will give you more control of things but NASCAR couldnt handle that

I'm not sure what is better about fuel injection for NASCAR racing. The cars won't go any faster or be any quicker. NASCAR limits the speed to what they consider a safe range anyway. Seriously, how would FI help?

I'm not sure what is better about fuel injection for NASCAR racing. The cars won't go any faster or be any quicker. NASCAR limits the speed to what they consider a safe range anyway. Seriously, how would FI help?

It will give the engineers more control over the engine and the ability to adjust it during a race with the engine management system. The electronics would be beneficial for qualifying and during a race.

But how will that help them if all teams have it? Will they use less gas? Will they be safer? Will engines last longer? Will they go faster yet be safer? And how does that translate to the fan enjoyment? I still don't get it.

But how will that help them if all teams have it? Will they use less gas? Will they be safer? Will engines last longer? Will they go faster yet be safer? And how does that translate to the fan enjoyment? I still don't get it.

The engine management system can be tuned during the race just like in F1 for fuel mileage etc it gives teams and drives more control over the motor and how it is performing. You can then have your Crew Cheif relay messages to the driver like in F1 about how the engine is runnign for better performance etc it gives you more ability to tune during a race I mean it could be the smallest of margins for a better car.

Sounds like someone who being an F1 fan just does not understand NASCAR and would like to have NASCAR morph into F1 with full bodies. I won't dwell on what makes NASCAR a popular form of racing any more than drag racing, but will say the rules, track makeup and advertising possibilities in the USA is what makes NASCAR what it is today. Enjoy F1 and let NASCAR fans have their races is what I would say.

Sounds like someone who being an F1 fan just does not understand NASCAR and would like to have NASCAR morph into F1 with full bodies. I won't dwell on what makes NASCAR a popular form of racing any more than drag racing, but will say the rules, track makeup and advertising possibilities in the USA is what makes NASCAR what it is today. Enjoy F1 and let NASCAR fans have their races is what I would say.

No way Nascar could never be F1 and vice cersa I just find Nascar has gotten away from the fans and what they like and they need more technical innovation with the cars I mean every other form of racing including motorcycle racing has engine management and traction controll etc it is time they came into the future and use some technology.

NASCAR does not agree.

No suprise they like to live in the past using old technology.

It is just a difference of opinion. You didn't really give any reason on how the NASCAR races could be improved. Engine management is just not something that will improve a NASCAR race. They don't care about performance of the cars beyond allowing them to go 200mph or so. It is not like F1. It just isn't. There are no restrictor plate races in F1. Not sure how FI with engine management would work to get the equlivalent of restrictor plates. Don't like restrictor plates and think they are stupid? Don't take the time to watch, I guess, but that's NASCAR.

NASCAR is much more about other things than car peformance anyway and if you are not a NASCAR fan you just will never get it, imo.

Horse racing has just got to be technology nighmare for you.

It is just a difference of opinion. You didn't really give any reason on how the NASCAR races could be improved. Engine management is just not something that will improve a NASCAR race. They don't care about performance of the cars beyond allowing them to go 200mph or so. It is not like F1. It just isn't. There are no restrictor plate races in F1. Not sure how FI with engine management would work to get the equlivalent of restrictor plates. Don't like restrictor plates and think they are stupid? Don't take the time to watch, I guess, but that's NASCAR.

NASCAR is much more about other things than car peformance anyway and if you are not a NASCAR fan you just will never get it, imo.

Horse racing has just got to be technology nighmare for you.

Not a horse racing fan either LOL.

I'm a Stewart fan too. I just think NASCAR has gotten away from it's paint rubbin', fist fightin', Balls out past to try and appeal to everyone and it ain't workin.

I'm a Stewart fan too. I just think NASCAR has gotten away from it's paint rubbin', fist fightin', Balls out past to try and appeal to everyone and it ain't workin.

You are correct a couple of my uncles were die hard NASCAR fans and with all they all hate the way the series is going they to wish they would incorporate some updated technology to the cars and make them actually use the body that is on the street car not what they currently use.

Horse racing has just got to be technology nighmare for you.

Ha, I was going to do a post about the ancient technology in horse racing and track & field competition.

From what I have read. the upgrade to Fuel Injection would allow more . .ahem . . ."creative tuning"

There is a famous story from years ago about Smokey Unik being called out for a rule infraction concerning his gas tank and the amount of gas it would hold. NASCAR removed the gas tank from the car . . .
and Smokey DROVE the car back to the garage sans gas tank, which was over a mile away!

A straight carb can be torn down very quickly and measured to see if a team has "exceeded the specs"

It's more about the drivers then it is about the cars and this is the manufacturers fault which dates back to 1969 when the Dodge Charger Daytona came onto the track.

Someone said, I think it was Buddy Baker, on the episode of American Musclecar titled "Winged Warriors" that those Daytona's and Superbirds were hitting 250 MPH on the straights of the super speedways.

It was Goodyear who told NASCAR . . "our tires are only good for 220 MPH . . .someone is going to kill himself with a blowout at 250 MPH!"

The open wheeled cars can get away with it due to the airflow all around the tire which at those speeds has a cooling effect but NASCAR has a fully enclosed tire and that heat really builds up.

I believe NASCAR has tried to level the playing field so much that all you have to do is watch the first 15 minutes of the race and the last 15 minutes.

Wonder if the will reserect the Trans Am series with Chrysler and Chevy bringing out new "pony cars". THAT series in my opinion was the most exciting ever to watch. Saw three races at "The Glen"

I was just on TSN and they are saying Nascar is touting the CAR OF TOMORROW all I noticed in difference is the new front clip similar to what the Le Mans cars run and the new adjustable rear spoiler not much of a car of tomorrow from my standpoint LOL. It looks more like they are trying to copy the Touring car championships in Germany and Austrailia I love the Australian supercar series.

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/nascar/news_story/?ID=197166&hubname=auto_racing-nascar

The "chin" spolier will allow less wind resistance (wind will go over the car as opposed to under the car which can lift the car at the speeds that travel at.

The rear spoiler adds the Vettical "fins" on the sides to add more stability at high speed. The greatest benefir of the "winged wonders" was not the height of the spoiler, but the "sail panels" on the sides that gave the greatest benefit. All the spoiler did was to add downforce . . .but if you can control DF, you are will cut through the wind better and handle better in the curves.

Most of the improvements are safety related and cannot be seen without a "cutaway" car.

The front spoiler may also cut down on "bump drafting" as from all the adjustments you can see, knock it out of whack a bit and you fall behind.

It is just a difference of opinion. You didn't really give any reason on how the NASCAR races could be improved.

test #1

Engine management is just not something that will improve a NASCAR race. They don't care about performance of the cars beyond allowing them to go 200mph or so. It is not like F1. It just isn't.

test#2

There are no restrictor plate races in F1. Not sure how FI with engine management would work to get the equlivalent of restrictor plates. Don't like restrictor plates and think they are stupid? Don't take the time to watch, I guess, but that's NASCAR.

test #3

NASCAR is much more about other things than car peformance anyway and if you are not a NASCAR fan you just will never get it, imo.

test#4

Horse racing has just got to be technology nighmare for you.

test#5

Getting back to the "chin" spoiler. I've heard one (not that there aren't others) reason the drivers have a concern with the car of tomorrow IS whith the "chin" spoiler. They are concerned that it won't take much of a "bump" to take it out of commision. As it is now, on many tracks, they can almost tear the whole front end off the car's and still go back and race fairly well. Still not sure if that will be the same with the new car's.

Getting back to the "chin" spoiler. I've heard one (not that there aren't others) reason the drivers have a concern with the car of tomorrow IS whith the "chin" spoiler. They are concerned that it won't take much of a "bump" to take it out of commision. As it is now, on many tracks, they can almost tear the whole front end off the car's and still go back and race fairly well. Still not sure if that will be the same with the new car's.

I believe the chin spolier will end bump drafting. Too easy to knock it out of alignment. . . which is not a bad thing as bump drafting causes too many accidents.

Getting back to the "chin" spoiler. I've heard one (not that there aren't others) reason the drivers have a concern with the car of tomorrow IS whith the "chin" spoiler. They are concerned that it won't take much of a "bump" to take it out of commision. As it is now, on many tracks, they can almost tear the whole front end off the car's and still go back and race fairly well. Still not sure if that will be the same with the new car's.

Well the ALMS cars do not suffer to much from this issue and they run them on some pretty suspect tracks like Sebring and Daytona. The LMP cars do but not the GT cars.

I was watching the Gaternationals this past weekend and was thinking just how powerful those Top Fuel motors really are. In comparison, An entire NASCAR small block V8 engine (800 HP) is less than one single cylinder of a TF 500 ci ,Blown and Injected, running on 85% Nitro, Engine.

I was watching the Gaternationals this past weekend and was thinking just how powerful those Top Fuel motors really are. In comparison, An entire NASCAR small block V8 engine (800 HP) is less than one single cylinder of a TF 500 ci ,Blown and Injected, running on 85% Nitro, Engine.
Ive seen some numbers that run some crazy notions behind a top fuelers engine
They said that it burns 1.98 gallons of fuel per minute...a 747 burns 2.1 or something along them lines. The magnetos used in them cars put out the same voltage a standard shop welder. Some crazy ish like that...I'll look for the link as to show the actual numbers. At the end they did this "scenario" where yur driving along at 200mph...youre heading towars the start line of a 1/4 mile track an at the instant you pass the tree the top fueler takes off.........he passes you before you hit the traps:eek:

Did anyone see the Australian GP race over the weekend the cars are running a 19K RPM redline and are only 2.4 litres of displacement making close to 900 HP and no turbo.

Both true stories . . and both insane stories, when you think about just what some engine mechanics and parts designers are able to do with, when it is all torn down to the block . . is a a motor designed for a passenger vehicle.

8000 HP motors! . . . . . 19,000 RPM 2.4 ltr engines!

Both true stories . . and both insane stories, when you think about just what some engine mechanics and parts designers are able to do with, when it is all torn down to the block . . is a a motor designed for a passenger vehicle.

8000 HP motors! . . . . . 19,000 RPM 2.4 ltr engines!

Yep and @ 2.4 litres V8 32 valve and only 95 kilos in weight and 19,000 RPM is on the low side many of the F1 engines are running 21K plus RPM relines.

I'd prefer that it wasn't a spam thread. I did see the car of tomorrow on TV last night. Kind of an upright, not really slick looking car. Looked OK with the factory paint jobs, but not too great in primer.

I'd prefer that it wasn't a spam thread. I did see the car of tomorrow on TV last night. Kind of an upright, not really slick looking car. Looked OK with the factory paint jobs, but not too great in primer.

I still laugh at the title CAR OF TOMORROW maybe if tomorrow was 10 years ago LOL. Sorry I just don't get Nascar and their OLD technology.

I still laugh at the title CAR OF TOMORROW maybe if tomorrow was 10 years ago LOL. Sorry I just don't get Nascar and their OLD technology.

Another bump to get rid of porn

Another bump to get rid of porn


And another

one more

still going

Ok just hopping in on teh fun

BUMP BUMP

2 things- I was hoping that Gordon would wreck himself and Johnson and do those CoT look slow, or what?

2 things- I was hoping that Gordon would wreck himself and Johnson and do those CoT look slow, or what?


They look retarted to be honest they really need an overhaul of the entire series to mimick more of the AMLS series cars. Or maybe just maybe go back to the actual production cars they are supposed to resemble.

My son really likes the new cars, the spoiler mostly. Kind of gives them a rice burner look if you ask me!

My son really likes the new cars, the spoiler mostly. Kind of gives them a rice burner look if you ask me!


LOL kids eh I am not a big fan of the ricers especially the movie the slow and the tedious. I prefer American Le Mans and the Australian superca series and the touring car championships in England. My favourite is F1 and Moto GP I mean look at all that technology even in the bikes hell an AMA superbike now has more technology in it than the average NASCARP.

I used to be a big IMSA fan back in the day. Loved the Castrol Jags and the Nissan was very, very fast.

I used to be a big IMSA fan back in the day. Loved the Castrol Jags and the Nissan was very, very fast.


I agree the Nissa was a beast to race against from all I remember from watching them race. See if Nascar wants to have a car of tomorrow then make it a true car of tomorrow and not a mock up of what they are trying to imply as being a charger or fusion or camry or impala they aren't fooling anyone and the technology used under the skin is to damn old to be called anything of tomorrow. Start using composite bodies instead of sheetmetal make the car look like a true car of tomorrow instead of pretending it is based on a production car that still has more technology packed under it's hood than anything on a nascar grid.

Interesting side note- ISC-NASCAR was attempting to get the State to pay for half of a Track to be located about 2 miles from my house. Lot's of local opposition, this has been going on for 2 years now. ISC announced Monday that it is pulling out of the Kitsap county site. Even though I like NASCAR, I'm glad to see them pull the plug. I'm not in to paying for France to get another yacht.

Interesting side note- ISC-NASCAR was attempting to get the State to pay for half of a Track to be located about 2 miles from my house. Lot's of local opposition, this has been going on for 2 years now. ISC announced Monday that it is pulling out of the Kitsap county site. Even though I like NASCAR, I'm glad to see them pull the plug. I'm not in to paying for France to get another yacht.


Maybe something that would help Nascar would be to run on roadcourses and stop with all the crappy cookie cutter circle track crap. Let the drivers actually drive and turn left and right to see who the best DRIVER is and test the DRIVERS skill what a novel idea.

Maybe something that would help Nascar would be to run on roadcourses and stop with all the crappy cookie cutter circle track crap. Let the drivers actually drive and turn left and right to see who the best DRIVER is and test the DRIVERS skill what a novel idea.

Nascar runs two road course each year (Watkins Glen & Infineon). More have been suggested but there are not many venues that would be able to support the monster of logistics that is NASCAR.
Although many tracks appear to be "Cookie Cutter", no more than two of each are simular in any way. A good example is Texas and Atlanta. Although these are the two fastest and appear to be the same (1.5 mi., 24/5 degree banking), drivers say that they race very differently and those that race well on one frequently don't on the other.
An additional problem is how to construct new tracks. We don't want another Talladega (one is enough) or another Bristol. Road courses do not have the variety of uses that a speedway offers and thus potential to earn more. What configuration for a new track is the real conundrum.
One last note, the yachts bought from new facilities will belong to ISC boss Bruton Smith, not Bill France.

Nascar runs two road course each year (Watkins Glen & Infineon). More have been suggested but there are not many venues that would be able to support the monster of logistics that is NASCAR.
Although many tracks appear to be "Cookie Cutter", no more than two of each are simular in any way. A good example is Texas and Atlanta. Although these are the two fastest and appear to be the same (1.5 mi., 24/5 degree banking), drivers say that they race very differently and those that race well on one frequently don't on the other.
An additional problem is how to construct new tracks. We don't want another Talladega (one is enough) or another Bristol. Road courses do not have the variety of uses that a speedway offers and thus potential to earn more. What configuration for a new track is the real conundrum.
One last note, the yachts bought from new facilities will belong to ISC boss Bruton Smith, not Bill France.

Funny you mention that our road courses up here get far more use from all forms of racing than our ovals. As for NASCAR using more roadcourses try using Laguna they pack that place for the Moto GP events I think they sait it was almost 200 thousand people last year for the race. Try Barber that would be another great venue and Miller motorsports out west would be another great roadcourse. Then you can see who the real drivers are and who the circle jerks are in the series. I just don't think the Nascar boys could handle racing on tracks like this it would be to much pressure you know turning left and turning right LOL.


Links to the circuits.
http://www.millermotorsportspark.com/home.php

http://www.barbermotorsports.com/

http://www.laguna-seca.com/

Nascar runs two road course each year (Watkins Glen & Infineon). More have been suggested but there are not many venues that would be able to support the monster of logistics that is NASCAR.
Although many tracks appear to be "Cookie Cutter", no more than two of each are simular in any way. A good example is Texas and Atlanta. Although these are the two fastest and appear to be the same (1.5 mi., 24/5 degree banking), drivers say that they race very differently and those that race well on one frequently don't on the other.
An additional problem is how to construct new tracks. We don't want another Talladega (one is enough) or another Bristol. Road courses do not have the variety of uses that a speedway offers and thus potential to earn more. What configuration for a new track is the real conundrum.
One last note, the yachts bought from new facilities will belong to ISC boss Bruton Smith, not Bill France.

I would lump Charlotte and Vegas in with Texas and Atlanta....Chicago and Kansas seem very similar also...California and Michigan very similar tracks.

The difference in the tracks with similar layouts is usually the surface. That doesn't translate very well to the viewer, who sees another cookie cutter track. The "new" NASCAR fan doesn't care about the different bank angles or whether the surface is concrete, they want the action that NASCAR has promised and that hasn't panned out lately, outside of the last few laps at Daytona. BTW, France or Smith ain't gettin' rich off of my taxes, they took their ball and went home.

The difference in the tracks with similar layouts is usually the surface. That doesn't translate very well to the viewer, who sees another cookie cutter track. The "new" NASCAR fan doesn't care about the different bank angles or whether the surface is concrete, they want the action that NASCAR has promised and that hasn't panned out lately, outside of the last few laps at Daytona. BTW, France or Smith ain't gettin' rich off of my taxes, they took their ball and went home.

I watched wind tunnel with Dave Despain the other niht and they had the promoter for the Texas race on and he was urging people to come out to the race. HE said he had been getting e mails and letters that ticket prices were to high his answer to them was this. Well the parking is free and you can bring your own cooler for snacks and if you do buy things here they are the cheapest of all the races LOL. Yep that is going to convince a family to drop 4+hundred dollars on tickets because they can park for free and bring their own drinks and snacks LOL.

It'll be interesting to see if they sell out, attendance and ratings continue to slide.

It'll be interesting to see if they sell out, attendance and ratings continue to slide.


That is because people have finally realized the racing really ISN'T that good and the so called car of tomorrow is OLD technology they need to adapt a better strategy and series direction as the one they are using now just isn't working that well any longer.

It'll be interesting to see if they sell out, attendance and ratings continue to slide.

Ratings were artificially boosted last year by the Olympics (i.e. races following immediately after).

Then you can see who the real drivers are and who the circle jerks are in the series. I just don't think the Nascar boys could handle racing on tracks like this it would be to much pressure you know turning left and turning right LOL.


I'm with you. My guy is too young to realize that right turns are wrong, thus does very well on road courses. Don't forget it was the IRL boys screaming that Texas was too fast...

I'm with you. My guy is too young to realize that right turns are wrong, thus does very well on road courses. Don't forget it was the IRL boys screaming that Texas was too fast...


I am not a fan of the IRL and boy Georges racing series I prefer CART as they run primarily on roadcoarses and street courses. Look at Rahal he and his son are aspiring to make it to F1 so his son went to CART as they run roadcoarses and gives him a better shot at gaining the abilities he needs to make it to F1. Honestly IRL and CART should join up again and make 1 great series rather than the 2 mediocre series they currently are.

I am not a fan of the IRL and boy Georges racing series I prefer CART as they run primarily on roadcoarses and street courses. Look at Rahal he and his son are aspiring to make it to F1 so his son went to CART as they run roadcoarses and gives him a better shot at gaining the abilities he needs to make it to F1. Honestly IRL and CART should join up again and make 1 great series rather than the 2 mediocre series they currently are.I was at TMS when CART cancelled the race 1 hour before start because of vertigo being experienced by drivers from going "too fast". Not a pretty site,angry fans would be an understatement. I too would like to see these two become one.The IRL........:(

I was at TMS when CART cancelled the race 1 hour before start because of vertigo being experienced by drivers from going "too fast". Not a pretty site,angry fans would be an understatement. I too would like to see these two become one.The IRL........:(


I agree the IRL is not a great series at all.

I used to watch open wheel when they were one. I switched to NASCAR because the organization has more integrity and they make the racing as fan friendly as possible.

P.S. More drivers switch from open wheel to NASCAR than vice-versa...

I used to watch open wheel when they were one. I switched to NASCAR because the organization has more integrity and they make the racing as fan friendly as possible.

P.S. More drivers switch from open wheel to NASCAR than vice-versa...


Because most Nascar drivers couldn't excell in open wheel racing. Where as most open wheel racers have no real problems in Nascrash case in point JP Montoya.

Because most Nascar drivers couldn't excell in open wheel racing. Where as most open wheel racers have no real problems in Nascrash case in point JP Montoya.

Just the opposite, I don't know of any sucessful NASCAR drivers that went to Indy or F1. And few open wheel CART or F1 have had real sucess in Nascar, case in point Robby Gordon, Mario Andretti, Al Unser, A J Foyt, etc..
To quote Days of Thunder "...these cars are twice as heavy with a tire half as wide"

Just the opposite, I don't know of any sucessful NASCAR drivers that went to Indy or F1. And few open wheel CART or F1 have had real sucess in Nascar, case in point Robby Gordon, Mario Andretti, Al Unser, A J Foyt, etc..
To quote Days of Thunder "...these cars are twice as heavy with a tire half as wide"

Days of Thunder ugh I hated that movie I think it was Tom that killed that movie for me LOL. As for open wheelers look at Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart and Juan Montoya he allready has a win this season. Robby Gordon was only a mediocre open wheeler and Andretti well he was decent in cart but was well short of a star in F1.

I'm still waiting for that list of sucessful NASCAR drivers that left for CART/F1.....

Buddy Baker didn't know that Monte Carlo wasn't a Chevy...
David Pearson thought Grand Prix was a Pontiac....

If Chrysler starts making the new Challanger and Chevy makes the new Camaro - what are the chances of seeing American Trans Am racing once again?

I'm still waiting for that list of sucessful NASCAR drivers that left for CART/F1.....

Buddy Baker didn't know that Monte Carlo wasn't a Chevy...
David Pearson thought Grand Prix was a Pontiac....

That was my point there was not one Nascar driver that was ever successful in F1 or cart for that fact other than TS and he drove IRL if memory serves. The Nascar drivers know left turns and couldn;t handle the multitude of right hand corners and the technology they would be faced with or the G forces thier bodies would sustain.

If Chrysler starts making the new Challanger and Chevy makes the new Camaro - what are the chances of seeing American Trans Am racing once again?

That would be great to see let them have at it on the road courses around the US and Canada I bet Ron Fellows would be in there like a dirty shirt. Chevy would even supply him with all the Camaros he needs. The new Camaro is being built in Oshawa Ontario.

That would be great to see let them have at it on the road courses around the US and Canada I bet Ron Fellows would be in there like a dirty shirt. Chevy would even supply him with all the Camaros he needs. The new Camaro is being built in Oshawa Ontario.

Best racing I ever saw in 1969 was the Trans Am racing series. Was lucky to see three races that year.

We know from experiience that the R/T and Z28 brands will be used again. Also Ford has a "BOSS" mustang ready to go.

Best racing I ever saw in 1969 was the Trans Am racing series. Was lucky to see three races that year.

We know from experiience that the R/T and Z28 brands will be used again. Also Ford has a "BOSS" mustang ready to go.

I would love to see this series rise again and you could bet your life on it that Penske would be putting in a team for sure.

Ratings were down last year too. Check Jayski's, they keep track of this stuff pretty well.

Ratings were artificially boosted last year by the Olympics (i.e. races following immediately after).

Ratings were down last year too. Check Jayski's, they keep track of this stuff pretty well.


I would venture to guess they will continue to fall with the not so fan friendly prices etc at many of the races. Plus with viewership falling companies aren't going to want to spend teh big advertising dollars with the series either and thus force more increases in ticket prices to help offset the lost revenue from other areas.

I would venture to guess they will continue to fall with the not so fan friendly prices etc at many of the races. Plus with viewership falling companies aren't going to want to spend teh big advertising dollars with the series either and thus force more increases in ticket prices to help offset the lost revenue from other areas.

Silly person. They have no trouble selling out venues, because if the venue does not perform it will lose its date. Notice 200,000 at Texas last weekend?

I agree thet road course racing is more entertaining. We used to have the "Dallas Grand Prix" with the Trans Am series and the coolest thing was to walk around and see the race from different positions. BUT
You generate fan loyalty by promoting the Driver/Team and getting the public to identify with him. Nascar has done this better than any motor sport EVER. When I watch the NFL, I don't have a vested interest in the game unless the Cowboys are playing. NASCAR keeps its fan base by getting people involved with their driver. Nobody cares about open wheeled drivres unless they look like Danika!:thumbsup:

Fontana has kept BOTH of it's dates (so far) and hasn't sold out either in a couple of years now....

Silly person. They have no trouble selling out venues, because if the venue does not perform it will lose its date. Notice 200,000 at Texas last weekend?

I agree thet road course racing is more entertaining. We used to have the "Dallas Grand Prix" with the Trans Am series and the coolest thing was to walk around and see the race from different positions. BUT
You generate fan loyalty by promoting the Driver/Team and getting the public to identify with him. Nascar has done this better than any motor sport EVER. When I watch the NFL, I don't have a vested interest in the game unless the Cowboys are playing. NASCAR keeps its fan base by getting people involved with their driver. Nobody cares about open wheeled drivres unless they look like Danika!:thumbsup:

200,000 people is a decent turn out but Laguna had more than that for the MOTO GP race last year and it only makes 1 stop in the US although Boy George is trying to get a GP for Indy LOL should never happen. F1 in Montreal always has a HUGE turnout I knwo what you mean about a vested interest though as with all sports I can't stand watching them following them. I only watch hockey and have a vested interest in my favourite theam (the HABS) but will watch any hockey if it is on but I can't say I would turn on a baseball game or football game or basketball game just because it is on. I never watch them at all actually.

Remember that NASCAR makes 36 "stops" in the U.S. Fontana will probably lose one of its dates next year.

Remember that NASCAR makes 36 "stops" in the U.S. Fontana will probably lose one of its dates next year.


They could drop all teh races and I wouldn't be at all heartbroken about it LOL. It would mean Nascar TV I mean Speed vision could go back to airing all motorsports not just the Nascar crap that seems to be on over an dover almost every day.

So, who get's the "new" race?

Remember that NASCAR makes 36 "stops" in the U.S. Fontana will probably lose one of its dates next year.

So, who get's the "new" race?

I would vote for another road course or Darlington. But they would once again go with a bigger venue oval like Indy. They still need the Pac NW, so its a shame that Seattle doesn't want a track, maybe Onalaska.:p

Darlington lost it's Labor day race to California!!!! BTW, The Seattle track?? It was only accessible by bridge or ferry and 20 miles from a Freeway. Great choice ISC! Here's an eye opener-

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/sports/othersports/15nascar.html?ref=sports

Darlington lost it's Labor day race to California!!!! BTW, The Seattle track?? It was only accessible by bridge or ferry and 20 miles from a Freeway. Great choice ISC! Here's an eye opener-

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/sports/othersports/15nascar.html?ref=sports


That was a great article and shows that even traditional markes are now having a waining interest in the sport.

Darlington lost it's Labor day race to California!!!! BTW, The Seattle track?? It was only accessible by bridge or ferry and 20 miles from a Freeway. Great choice ISC!


Thats good...Texas has 4 freeways close by and it still takes 5 hours to transit each way.

Viewers will come and go. I suppose many fans that have stopped watching, tuned in to a couple of seasons to see what the popularity is all about. Not finding a team/driver to be involved with, they fall away.
The California market is confused. Those folks didn't know cars could go faster than 40mph until NASCAR got there. Which brings up a good point. How do you explain a new sport to the novice fan?
When the Stars moved to Dallas, they brought their TV announcers with them from Minn. (not all of us attended the Chi. Blackhawks farm club that was here for years). They educated the general public about the game. How well are the L.A. fans learning? Do they broadcast in spanish? Would they understand better if the drivers were armed?:thumbsup:

Thats good...Texas has 4 freeways close by and it still takes 5 hours to transit each way.

Viewers will come and go. I suppose many fans that have stopped watching, tuned in to a couple of seasons to see what the popularity is all about. Not finding a team/driver to be involved with, they fall away.
The California market is confused. Those folks didn't know cars could go faster than 40mph until NASCAR got there. Which brings up a good point. How do you explain a new sport to the novice fan?
When the Stars moved to Dallas, they brought their TV announcers with them from Minn. (not all of us attended the Chi. Blackhawks farm club that was here for years). They educated the general public about the game. How well are the L.A. fans learning? Do they broadcast in spanish? Would they understand better if the drivers were armed?:thumbsup:


Well it seems that Cali has sure adapted quite well to the 2 wheel variety of racingand it is only broadcast in english look at the MotoGP events at Laguna every year combined with the AMA races and when the World Superbike events were there. They always sold out and are packed to capacity. Nascar is just not what the fans are looking for anymore and it is starting to show in the ratings and fan turnout at the tracks.

Infineon sells out it's one race and the population base up there is much less than in SoCal. Must be because it's a road race?

Infineon sells out it's one race and the population base up there is much less than in SoCal. Must be because it's a road race?


Probably as a roadcourse race is far more exciting to watch no matter what is driving around the track.

We need more short track race tracks like Bristol. Enough of the 1 1/2 D shaped ovals. Not exactly cookie cutter tracks...but pretty darn close.

We need more short track race tracks like Bristol. Enough of the 1 1/2 D shaped ovals. Not exactly cookie cutter tracks...but pretty darn close.


Nope more excitement would be generated with roadcourses it would also bring in a new fan base one that likes/liked the transam racing and even some open wheel fans may be inclined to watch if the series ran on more roadcourses to actually show driver ability rather than just driving in circles running into the back of the guy in front of you to get him out of your way.

We need a flat figure 8 track. Now that would generate some interest!

We need a flat figure 8 track. Now that would generate some interest!


LOL ya but the drivers would complain about it ...

Remember that NASCAR makes 36 "stops" in the U.S. Fontana will probably lose one of its dates next year.There's not a stop at Fontana. The only RR is Watkins Glenn. See: http://www.nascar.com/races/cup/2007/data/schedule.html

There's not a stop at Fontana. The only RR is Watkins Glenn. See: http://www.nascar.com/races/cup/2007/data/schedule.html


Well I guess they should look into Barber mtorsports park and Laguna and Miller Motorsports park to add some excitement to the series and some real tracks that have both left and right turns in them....
I am almost posative it would bring in fans from other forms of racing if they did this even if it was just a passing interest to see what the races would shape up to be on the road courses if it attracts 10 fans and they keep 3 it would still be an increase.

There's not a stop at Fontana. The only RR is Watkins Glenn. See: http://www.nascar.com/races/cup/2007/data/schedule.html
California Speedway IS Fontana... presently has two stops....:)

California Speedway IS Fontana... presently has two stops....:)So it is. Funny the track name in the Tracks list is Fontana (with California Speedway in smaller letters) so it would be nice if they would get consistant for dopes like me!

Infineon (Bruton Smith) in Sonoma,California is the other RR course this year...........:)

Not a dope!!!

....so it would be nice if they would get consistant for dopes like me!My post means your not a dope!!! (just in case you didn't understand)

I got it. Thanks. Just a bad reader!

I got it. Thanks. Just a bad reader!


Atleast it is only your reading I am a terrible typer as is evident by reading many of my posts after I actually hit the submit reply button LOL.

Those can be reduced quite a bit by downloading the spell checker. It is started by the ABC checkmark icon.

Atleast it is only your reading I am a terrible typer as is evident by reading many of my posts after I actually hit the submit reply button LOL.
And I thought you were speaking canadian:thumbsup:

And I thought you were speaking canadian:thumbsup:


I am EH!!!. So has anyone watched the AMA or Moto GP races on speed today.

Does speed broadcast when NASCAR isn't on?

Does speed broadcast when NASCAR isn't on?
Apparently they do I was unaware of this myself till flipping by it and seeing something other than NASCAR coverage LOL.

I only watch hockey and have a vested interest in my favourite theam (the HABS) .

OK, I give up. Who are the HABS? And will Dallas beat Vancouver in game 7?

OK, I give up. Who are the HABS? And will Dallas beat Vancouver in game 7?


LOL the HABS are the Montreal Canadiens and Vancouver sure did suck teh left nut last night didn't they. Honestly after that performance they don't deserve the series. I think they will win but damn they sure don't deserve it. I must say though that Luongo and Turco have both been stellar in the series it will be sad to see one of these 2 guys have to pack it in for the season.

Talk about expensive, Stars tickets make TMS look cheap.

Talk about expensive, Stars tickets make TMS look cheap.


Sounds like trying to get tickets to see the HABS or the Leafs. The last game of the season between the Leafs and HABS tickets were going for 1000 bucks each for lower bowl and 4-500 for the upper bowl and it wasn't even a playoff game for crying out loud.

Hey,5 is #1,Nellie's spares put the hurt on our boys......:what:

I was watching a show called pit crews today they had Miguel Duhamels crew on it then they had some Nascar guys crew on it and people complain that F1 races are won and lost in the pits well this crew person basically said the same of Nascar only in Nascar they said they weren't above blocking while exiting thier pit stall to get ahead of the other guy. I really liked the Motorccle portion of this show it was great I have also seen one where theyhad Clint McBain's Suzuki Canada crew and Paul Traceys CART crew on it.

Hey,5 is #1,Nellie's spares put the hurt on our boys......:what:

He is a master manipulator (and a damn fine coach).

I was watching a show called pit crews today they had Miguel Duhamels crew on it then they had some Nascar guys crew on it and people complain that F1 races are won and lost in the pits well this crew person basically said the same of Nascar only in Nascar they said they weren't above blocking while exiting thier pit stall to get ahead of the other guy. I really liked the Motorccle portion of this show it was great I have also seen one where theyhad Clint McBain's Suzuki Canada crew and Paul Traceys CART crew on it.

A fast pit is 14 sec. in NASCAR which equals 100 yards/sec. at 200mph. I'm telling you that between 5 lugs and pit road speed limits ( not to mention 43 cars pitting at one time) it is by far the most difficult adjustment for poor old JP Montoya to make.:eek:

A fast pit is 14 sec. in NASCAR which equals 100 yards/sec. at 200mph. I'm telling you that between 5 lugs and pit road speed limits ( not to mention 43 cars pitting at one time) it is by far the most difficult adjustment for poor old JP Montoya to make.:eek:


Ya I just read on TSN that Montoya was put on probation for some gesture he made to somone LOL Ya Nascar stops are SSLLOOWW compared to a 6 second stop in F1. Even the stops at the Daytona 200 AMA races are quicker than the Nascar stops. F1 also has a 50KPH speed limit now.

"Smoke "blast Nascar officials for in his words trying to fix the outcome of the races...likens it to "Raslin"

"Smoke "blast Nascar officials for in his words trying to fix the outcome of the races...likens it to "Raslin"


Maybe he should switch to American Le Mans series driving full time and leave the HICK racing to the good ole boys.

They(Nascar ) only appear to try very hard to make it a level playing field... that all teams have the same chance to win... Then why is it almost every week only the teams with the biggest sponsers and the most money always seem to come out on top. When was the last time a non big sponser team won a race? I'm talking Kenny Schrader, Robbie Gordon Kenny Wallace Ward Burton ya know that bunch?

They(Nascar ) only appear to try very hard to make it a level playing field... that all teams have the same chance to win... Then why is it almost every week only the teams with the biggest sponsers and the most money always seem to come out on top. When was the last time a non big sponser team won a race? I'm talking Kenny Schrader, Robbie Gordon Kenny Wallace Ward Burton ya know that bunch?

Those guys are soo slow. I bet at Dega, they qualify a whole 3/10 of a second behind the pole sitter.
Get real... Hendricks guys race for Rick because they are the best available. Same with the "Cat in the Hat", Childress, and Gibbs. Better teams attract anyone they want because they have more resources.
Robby is different, he is a great road man but a mediocre person (of course I ment oval racer).

Those guys are soo slow. I bet at Dega, they qualify a whole 3/10 of a second behind the pole sitter.
Get real... Hendricks guys race for Rick because they are the best available. Same with the "Cat in the Hat", Childress, and Gibbs. Better teams attract anyone they want because they have more resources.
Robby is different, he is a great road man but a mediocre person (of course I ment oval racer).


Even with his roadcourse experiance he still isn't that great of a racecar driver LOL.

They(Nascar ) only appear to try very hard to make it a level playing field... that all teams have the same chance to win... Then why is it almost every week only the teams with the biggest sponsers and the most money always seem to come out on top. When was the last time a non big sponser team won a race? I'm talking Kenny Schrader, Robbie Gordon Kenny Wallace Ward Burton ya know that bunch?

Isn't it like that in every sport the winning teams always attract the most money and biggest sponsors. It is up to the losing teams to drag themselves up from the bottom and displace the dominant teams for a share of the money and etc.

Isn't it like that in every sport the winning teams always attract the most money and biggest sponsors. It is up to the losing teams to drag themselves up from the bottom and displace the dominant teams for a share of the money and etc.


Not in the NHL with the new salary cap and the playoffs when all players are thus playing for free. Paycheques in the NHL stop when the playoffs start.

Another Gordon win, another banner day for the beer bottle clean up crew.....

Another Gordon win, another banner day for the beer bottle clean up crew.....


Ya what a joke that was all over teh sports news last ight the people throwing beer cans and bottles don't they know that is alcohol abuse hell if you aren't going to drink it send it to my house LOL. I guess that just goes with the class of NASCAR fans LOL....

The whole race was a joke. NASCAR has lost it's roots. Just another reality show IMO.

The whole race was a joke. NASCAR has lost it's roots. Just another reality show IMO.


Speed did a poll about the yellows in NASCRACK and the people that replied to it voted 95% that the way they are going is ruining the sport LOL maybe the people in charge of this sinking ship should take notice when the fans start to talk shit about it. This was on windtunnel I love the motorcycle portion of this show mind you it seems to be getting smaller and smaller in favour of the NASCRACK garbage.

winning a race under caution would be alot like going on a date spending alot of money getting back to the shack and finding out shes a man...........way to go Nascar!!!!

Tough weekend for my boy. Two bad wrecks that he didn't cause (this time). Cracked his HANS device in Saturdays barrel rolls!:banghead:

Ya Nascar stops are SSLLOOWW compared to a 6 second stop in F1.
How many guys are allowed over the wall in F1?
Aren't the jacks in F1 cars built into the car?

How many guys are allowed over the wall in F1?
Aren't the jacks in F1 cars built into the car?


No the jacks go under teh front and rear of the car and they lift it from there and as for guys over the wall there is no wall LOL. They do have one for each tire and one to fill the car and a sign man out front for sure I think there may be 1 or 2 others but not 100% on that.

No the jacks go under teh front and rear of the car and they lift it from there

Ok, I must be thinking about another open wheel type.

I'll tell ya, the coordination of all those guys around the car during a pit stop is incredible. It looks like a bunch of ants on an ant hill :).

Ok, I must be thinking about another open wheel type.

I'll tell ya, the coordination of all those guys around the car during a pit stop is incredible. It looks like a bunch of ants on an ant hill :).


I think CART has hydrolic lifts in the car for pit stops or they are air driven not 100% sure but I do remember the CART cars being lifted from under the chassis.

Ok, I must be thinking about another open wheel type.

I'll tell ya, the coordination of all those guys around the car during a pit stop is incredible. It looks like a bunch of ants on an ant hill :).

Yes - we finally get some action for all of 16 seconds.

All open wheel cars use internal jacks powered by high pressure air. The pit man plugs the HPA connection into the car and all 4 wheels come off the ground in less than 2 seconds. He releases the connection and the jacks retrack. They also use a single large "nut" to hold the wheel assembly to the car so again less time is used to replace tires.

They also use a fuel hose as opposed to fuel cans with a very large nozzel (about the size of the nozzel the tankers use to fill gas stations)

Yes - we finally get some action for all of 16 seconds.

Ya, unfortunately thats why I don't really watch road course racing. Very hard to pass where Nascar normally has at least a couple great places to pass every lap. IMHO, the interaction between cars is much greater in NASCAR than any other type of racing.

Ya, unfortunately thats why I don't really watch road course racing. Very hard to pass where Nascar normally has at least a couple great places to pass every lap. IMHO, the interaction between cars is much greater in NASCAR than any other type of racing.


If by interaction you mean I am going to run into the back of you to get you out of my way then ya sure but honestly with a track as wide as they are and in a circle how hard is it not to pass hell that is what makes roadcourses so great it is a calculated pass at specific points that you get your passing. Far more entertainment than NASCRASH as far as I am concerned let the NASCRACK crowd stay in the south and get the real race fans up north and in Cali watching some excellent roadcourse opensheel and AMLS racing and bikes can't forget the bikes.

If by interaction you mean I am going to run into the back of you to get you out of my way .

Lets not sell a great sport short here. They also hit the RR quarter panel, LR qp, RF qp, LF qp, R door, L door, as well as the undercarriage and roof as they spin on their side down the Straightaway!:thumbsup:

but honestly with a track as wide as they are and in a circle how hard is it not to pass
LOL

Lets not sell a great sport short here. They also hit the RR quarter panel, LR qp, RF qp, LF qp, R door, L door, as well as the undercarriage and roof as they spin on their side down the Straightaway!:thumbsup:


Ya I guess they use whatever means they can to push you out of the way rather than actually passing somone.

Ya I guess they use whatever means they can to push you out of the way rather than actually passing somone.

Hmmm, we must not be watching the same thing.

Hmmm, we must not be watching the same thing.


All I ever see is the damn highlites when I watch wind tunnel with Dave despain and listen to all the people complaining about the way guys are driving and how NASCRACK is tossing yellow flags for phantom debris on the track etc. Kinda like the idiots throwing beer bottles etc on the track after a race. Sorry but that shows how classless the fans at the races truly are. For them to actually garner fan support they need to adopt new rules and run on roadcourses and let the DRIVERS decide the races.

For them to actually garner fan support they need to adopt new rules and run on roadcourses and let the DRIVERS (http://highdefforum.com/showthread.php?p=289968#) decide the races.

That obviously is just your opinion as the attendance figures don't bear this out. According to Wikipedia NASCAR pulled in 6,700,000 at 36 events (Average 186,000) (2003). Ref: List Of Sports Attendance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports_attendance_figures#Four_wheeled_spo rt)

Looking down the list quite a few lines it seems the road racers would only cause a drop in fan support. F1 attendance is very difficult to find in a summary as their site seems to try their best to advoid talking about it, but maybe I just don't know how to navigate that site.

That obviously is just your opinion as the attendance figures don't bear this out. According to Wikipedia NASCAR pulled in 6,700,000 at 36 events (Average 186,000) (2003). Ref: List Of Sports Attendance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports_attendance_figures#Four_wheeled_spo rt)

Looking down the list quite a few lines it seems the road racers would only cause a drop in fan support. F1 attendance is very difficult to find in a summary as their site seems to try their best to advoid talking about it, but maybe I just don't know how to navigate that site.


Oh no the site isn't user friendly in that way at all but I know for the Canadian GP I think it is something like 175K on a bad year and over 200K on a good weather weekend. In Europe and the other stops ther pull in about 200K per event. As for the Nascar number they sure seem to be declining this year so much so that they have had the promoters for events on air to try to rally support for attendance.

I think if you look at the numbers they do give it is well below your figure. Take the Total attendance for the 2006 Australian Grand Prix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Australian_Grand_Prix) held in Melbourne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne) was 301,500 with a raceday total of 103,000 (a drop from the 2005 total of 118,200), so you should differenciate from the raceday results that NASCAR uses from the event, usually four days, that F1 tend to report. Looking at the raceday results they have reported, they are a far cry away from the 180,000+ average of NASCAR.

rbinck-

Are you using American math or Canadian math?
This could explain the difference in our common language:angel

All I ever see is the damn highlites when I watch wind tunnel with Dave despain and listen to all the people complaining about the way guys are driving and how NASCRACK is tossing yellow flags for phantom debris on the track etc. Kinda like the idiots throwing beer bottles etc on the track after a race. Sorry but that shows how classless the fans at the races truly are. For them to actually garner fan support they need to adopt new rules and run on roadcourses and let the DRIVERS decide the races.
Now I understand, your comments are based on the media and not from actually watching the races. I can see how you would get such an inaccurate view of Nascar.

Now I understand, your comments are based on the media and not from actually watching the races. I can see how you would get such an inaccurate view of Nascar.


I prefer to get no view of NASCARP but alas it is now all over speed channel which used to have great motorcycle coverage and F1 coverage was fair at best. For my F1 I watch TSN and get the races in HD.

I think if you look at the numbers they do give it is well below your figure. Take the Total attendance for the 2006 Australian Grand Prix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Australian_Grand_Prix) held in Melbourne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne) was 301,500 with a raceday total of 103,000 (a drop from the 2005 total of 118,200), so you should differenciate from the raceday results that NASCAR uses from the event, usually four days, that F1 tend to report. Looking at the raceday results they have reported, they are a far cry away from the 180,000+ average of NASCAR.

You may very well be correct in this as I have only ever attended the Canadian GP in Montreal and the announced race day attendance was close to 200 thousand. Now they announced it as raceday attendance but if what you are saying is accurate and I have no reason to believe it isn't that could have been race weekend attendance. I do know that teh Moto GP event in Cali at Laguna has 300 plus thousand again announced race day attendance so that is what I have to go on.

rbinck-

Are you using American math or Canadian math?
This could explain the difference in our common language:angel


Ya Canadian math tends to be much more accurate LOL...:hithere:

I prefer to get no view of NASCARP but alas it is now all over speed channel which used to have great motorcycle coverage and F1 coverage was fair at best. For my F1 I watch TSN and get the races in HD.

I think it's best then to reserve judgement till you watch a few races.
Enjoy!

You may very well be correct in this as I have only ever attended the Canadian GP in Montreal and the announced race day attendance was close to 200 thousand. Now they announced it as raceday attendance but if what you are saying is accurate and I have no reason to believe it isn't that could have been race weekend attendance. I do know that teh Moto GP event in Cali at Laguna has 300 plus thousand again announced race day attendance so that is what I have to go on.

I don't know where that was announced. Here's what I saw:

MONTREAL The 38th Grand Prix of Canada failed to set a record for total attendance despite being held on the St. Jean Baptiste holiday weekend for the first time.
With Sundays crowd of 119,000, attendance for the three-day event was 332,000 2,000 shy of the record set last year. A crowd of 103,000 showed up for Fridays practice sessions, followed by 110,000 for Saturdays qualifying.
Last years figures for Friday and Saturday were 102,000 and 111,000, respectively.
Source: http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/story.html?id=9e05d4b0-6014-44e5-adf8-9253250e9f54

119,000 is way short of 200,000.

We can go back and forth on this for a long time, but my point was that the NASCAR attendance figures do not bear out a problem with fan support as you implied, expecially compared to F1 attendance. NASCAR does not compile the entire event figures in the same way as F1 does, so to exactly compare the two is very difficult, but it is clear to me that NASCAR's 180,000 avg per race is more than the F1 averages since Canada and Austrailia are a couple of the largest.

NASCAR attendance is sliding, nothing to do with how they total it or F1, it's just LESS people are going. Jayski's talks about it a lot. Ratings are tanking too.

NASCAR attendance is sliding, nothing to do with how they total it or F1, it's just LESS people are going. Jayski's talks about it a lot. Ratings are tanking too.

And why shouldn't they?

The cars are exactly the same. The motors are exactly the same.

When I watch NASCAR I think a car is made by TIDE or UPS. . . cause that is what I see.

So it's now who is your favorite driver? We don't need super expensive cars and teams to determine this.

Heck . . . it would be more fun to watch our favorite drivers jump into plain old go-karts and do a few laps on a Super Speedway.

The race would be fast and we would have more time for the true "sport of sports" when it comes to 4 tire'd vehicles . . . .

Drag Racing!

It's fast . . . it's LOUD . . . and there is a new "race" every minute or so. It is also the fastest sport on the planet (and also the loudest - 150+ db's).

2 Top Fuel Dragsters have the combined horsepower of 16 NASCAR vehicles!

I'm not defending NASCAR, trust me. They're running the franchise into the ground ala' Indy cars. I will say this though, 43 NASCAR uh...cars...are pretty friggin loud! Not that it's a good thing...

I'm not defending NASCAR, trust me. They're running the franchise into the ground ala' Indy cars. I will say this though, 43 NASCAR uh...cars...are pretty friggin loud! Not that it's a good thing...I wasn't trying to defend NASCAR particularly either. The point that road racing would boost fan support just seems to be wrong. In fact the big open wheel races are all on speedways, so even in open wheel racing the ovals rule the attendance figures with the Indy 500 at 270 thousand plus being the largest raceday.

I agree the original NASCAR premise that caused the popularity has been eroded away. With all of the cars having essentially the same engines, the same bodies, tires, gas, etc. it loses all of the manufacturer's competition, which is what they want. I liked the races much better when it was more of a manufacturer's competition.

And NASCAR is not the only motor sport that is losing attendance, and time will tell if the recent rule changes will add interest or not.

I guess we can hope that the TRANS AM will be resurected once all "big three" have a competitive car. It really is almost like what is being suggested:

Late model cars running big HP engines on a road course. The only "mandate" was the CID of the engine. It was anything goes past that.

I still enjoy watching NASCAR although I'm not a big fan of some of the rules either. I used to do on-line racing and believe me there is quite a bit too it, I can just imagine how it is in real life. Sorry guys, NASCAR drivers are the best in the world!

I still enjoy watching NASCAR although I'm not a big fan of some of the rules either. I used to do on-line racing and believe me there is quite a bit too it, I can just imagine how it is in real life. Sorry guys, NASCAR drivers are the best in the world!


The best at what running into each other to gain a position on the track???

I don't know where that was announced. Here's what I saw:
Source: http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/story.html?id=9e05d4b0-6014-44e5-adf8-9253250e9f54

119,000 is way short of 200,000.

We can go back and forth on this for a long time, but my point was that the NASCAR attendance figures do not bear out a problem with fan support as you implied, expecially compared to F1 attendance. NASCAR does not compile the entire event figures in the same way as F1 does, so to exactly compare the two is very difficult, but it is clear to me that NASCAR's 180,000 avg per race is more than the F1 averages since Canada and Austrailia are a couple of the largest.


It was announced at the track while I was there for the race actually no matter what we find I think the numbers may be exploited a bit for the better of each series.

The best at what running into each other to gain a position on the track???

Please reserve your opinion untill you actually watch a race !

Please reserve your opinion untill you actually watch a race !


Oh I have been stuck watching a race at my uncles house mind you I no longer have to worry about that as his allegiance to NASCARP is gone along with the phantom yellow flags LOL. I think it was Michigan the race was at I really don't know as I watched as little of it as possible this was from last season he only watched a few races this season and finally gave it up kinda like smoking he figured it was bad for his health LOL.

NASCAR is no longer a race. It is a method to acclumulate points.

Just look at the finish of the last race. 8 laps to go and ALL the cars are in a single file line behind the leader.

The BUSH races are more exciting and the cars are less powerful. The Truck series is the best of all. These guys want to win races - not just get points for driving in the race.

NASCAR - watch the first 10 laps . . . then the last 10 laps - PRESTO - you have seen the race!

I'll simplify it even more than that, just pencil in a Hendrick car as the winner and move on to next week....repeat.

That is hilarious Lee and Papy sounds like a wonderfull series to watch LOL.

Hendrick car wins at Richmond ....what can I say?:banghead:

They should just re name it the Nextel Hendrickcar series rather than Nascar LOL.

What can I say... the cream rises to the top (or maybe to the front)!

NASCAR is no longer a race. It is a method to acclumulate points.

Just look at the finish of the last race. 8 laps to go and ALL the cars are in a single file line behind the leader.

The BUSH races are more exciting and the cars are less powerful. The Truck series is the best of all. These guys want to win races - not just get points for driving in the race.

NASCAR - watch the first 10 laps . . . then the last 10 laps - PRESTO - you have seen the race!

NASCAR changed the points system this year to more heavily weight it for wins.

NASCAR changed the points system this year to more heavily weight it for wins.


You could have fooled me.

Pretty boring race. Those guys aren't THAT much better drivers than the others. AND they have the best engineers in the world? Look for the field to start evening out as NASCAR makes "adjustments".

this saturday night should be a good one. lady in black never disappoints!

Pretty boring race. Those guys aren't THAT much better drivers than the others. AND they have the best engineers in the world? Look for the field to start evening out as NASCAR makes "adjustments".

Is this what the car of tomorrow is really all about?

Pretty boring race. Those guys aren't THAT much better drivers than the others. AND they have the best engineers in the world? Look for the field to start evening out as NASCAR makes "adjustments".

Wasn't too boring watching my boy start 34th and battle for the win.
I'm not too sure they aren't that much better than everyone else. Gordon's record speaks for itself. Johnson is unmatched in his first 6 (or is it 5) years. Kyle holds all the NASCAR "youngest" records at the ripe old age of 22 (Truck, Busch, and Cup).:banana:

Oh, sorry, I meant boring for the other 20 million or so other people that may have been watching the race.....

Oh, sorry, I meant boring for the other 20 million or so other people that may have been watching the race.....

20 million people watch nascar? i didn't realize that many people sat in front of their tv for four-five hours every week. yikes.

20 million people watch nascar? i didn't realize that many people sat in front of their tv for four-five hours every week. yikes.

Don't interrupt my Sunday nap!
I sleep from lap 150-300 every 400 lap race.

Don't interrupt my Sunday nap!
I sleep from lap 150-300 every 400 lap race.
Lol, those races do get a bit long sometimes :).

I honestly tried watching a race but after the first 15 laps I had to change the channel it was way to damn boring and sooooo predictable. I thought I was stuck in the twilight zone oh Jimmy Gordonstewart passes for the lead as they go 3 wide into turn 4 and at 3 wide oh my god this is racing LOL Boogery boogery boogery.

DVR's help. FF through commercials and yellow flags.

Jeff Gordon and Hendricks win Darlington.....Wash,Rinse,Repeat...
if this keeps up Nascar will lose alot of viewers..I only watched 4 laps.

DVR's help. FF through commercials and yellow flags.


Ya but to PVR a race like Nascar is IMHO a waste of space on the PVR that could be used for Animal planet or something else on Discovery or National Geographic that is far more insightfull and entertaining LOL.

DVR's help. FF through commercials and yellow flags.

This may come to an end. One station, through COX Cable is "defeating" the FF button on the STB so you can't skip commericals. I will locate the article.

Here it is:

The constant battle between impatient television viewers and disgruntled providers got a shot of adrenaline today, as Walt Disney's two biggest channels have inked a deal with Cox Communications that is sure to simultaneously appease marketers and enrage customers. Reportedly, Cox will now begin to "disable the fast-forward feature that allows viewers to skip ads" in both ABC and ESPN video-on-demand, meaning that users who choose to view older programming via Cox's VOD channels can smash the FF button 'til their heart's content and get nowhere. Of course, users who actually set their DVR to record said content at its normal airing time are still free (for the moment, at least) to blaze right on through those annoying blips commercials, which means that you should probably become a lot more disciplined in your DVR scheduling if you belong to Cox. The worst (or best, depending on perspective) part is the precedent that this sets, as now the door is gaped wide open for more and more providers to grab the reigns of our DVRs and dictate just how far we push the notion of timeshifting. [Warning: Read link requires subscription]

Talladega's ratings this year were down 28% from 2005. The race was held on a Monday last year, so no valid numbers to compare. Oh, and another boring F'n race at Darlington!

Jeff Gordon and Hendricks win Darlington.....Wash,Rinse,Repeat...
if this keeps up Nascar will lose alot of viewers..I only watched 4 laps.

the busch race was more exciting than the cup race.

Talladega's ratings this year were down 28% from 2005. The race was held on a Monday last year, so no valid numbers to compare. Oh, and another boring F'n race at Darlington!

the race was also on mother's day.

Darlington is a very different type track. I remember on-line racing it sure was a challenge.

Turns 1&2 you could take pretty much flat out at least with fresh tires, you would have to dip down in 1 and let it drift up. Even though some think it's just point and go it sure is not. Just think about how to pass a guy there, if you don't drift up then you lose speed but if you do you're into him - but you are faster so how do you get around? Also you are so close to the wall if you don't drop down a bit going into 2 you get the stripe but if someone is below you you lose speed.

Turns 3&4 require heavy braking and setting up the corner, not enough and you drift up into the wall, too much you're being passed, bad timing and trail brake too much, you're spinning out. Most important here is the exit speed because it sets up the back straight and also turns 1&2. You can't be fighting keeping it off the wall in 4, at this point you need to be set up to be full throttle as early as possible. However if you set up too well :) in the middle someone will come around you there.

If you understand the nuances of the track it makes it much more enjoyable to watch and you are more appreciative of the talent it takes to get around there.

My post says TALLADEGAS' ratings. Darlington was on Mum's day.

the race was also on mother's day.

Oh, Nuances or not, the race was boring, just like the NASCAR video games.

My post says TALLADEGAS' ratings. Darlington was on Mum's day.



Oh, Nuances or not, the race was boring, just like the NASCAR video games.
Hey, to each his own, no problem here :).
I know there are things that people watch that I think are boring, I sure don't knock it though.

I'm not knocking your enjoyment of the game or the Race. NASCAR used to be a lot more interesting and it's gotten away from it's roots, that's all. I LOVE baseball, but I know not everyone shares that, I understand that. Nothing personal here.

Hey, to each his own, no problem here :).
I know there are things that people watch that I think are boring, I sure don't knock it though.

I'm not knocking your enjoyment of the game or the Race. NASCAR used to be a lot more interesting and it's gotten away from it's roots, that's all. I LOVE baseball, but I know not everyone shares that, I understand that. Nothing personal here.

what do you think nascar could do to improve its product?

Stop trying to make racing "PC". If the guy wants to flip off another driver or fight, let them.
Get back to Ford Vs. Chevy Vs. Dodge. These tiny, pretty boy drivers do nothing for me, I want horsepower!
Add a couple more road tracks with several spots to pass.
Get back to it's roots. Rubbin is racin', it is a "southern thing", it ain't for everybody, build on your strengths.

NASCAR used to be a lot more interesting and it's gotten away from it's roots, that's all.
I agree, they're just a bit too worried about making money and not the history and spirit of the sport.

Stop trying to make racing "PC". If the guy wants to flip off another driver or fight, let them.
Get back to Ford Vs. Chevy Vs. Dodge. These tiny, pretty boy drivers do nothing for me, I want horsepower!
Add a couple more road tracks with several spots to pass.
Get back to it's roots. Rubbin is racin', it is a "southern thing", it ain't for everybody, build on your strengths.I'd agree with everything except the road tracks part. That's not their roots. They are a lot more popular on the ovals and tri-ovals.... and rectangles.

I think the biggest turning point had to be when Dale died. How to protect the driver and run the safest race possible became the biggest concern and the result is what we have now. Drivers can't take huge risks until the end of the race or they'll face penalties.

Do y'all think the "new car" will be good or bad for the sport?

Do y'all think the "new car" will be good or bad for the sport?


I don't think it will make a difference in the end but Hendricks influence and $$$ sure shows what gets results fast.

Is it true that Hendricks had alot to do with the COT and had more input or development time on it over the others?

(btw I'm starting to think of Hendricks as PBR - pretty boy racing :) (well except for Kyle))

Thanks

The new car will be safer and THAT is of prime importance. We have already lost too many good people to motorsports accidents in the last 5 years.

The safer the car and the track - the better the drivers can survive those horrific crashes and walk away from them.

Same thing holds true for NHRA where the speeds are 100+MPH higher.

While road racing isn't considered NASCAR heritage, driving on the beach at Daytona and dirt tracks are. I would suggest that it'd be a lot easier to stage road races than get permission to drive on the beach or find a big enough dirt track. Need some tail out driftin'- power through the apex'es ,balls out racing. That's what I need.

My post says TALLADEGAS' ratings. Darlington was on Mum's day.





sorry about the mixup. can you cite where you got those ratings information? i'm curious. thanks.

This topic still makes me laugh and I agree that they should try and stage more roadcourse races it would be more entertaining as people would truly get to see who the best DRIVERS are not who may have the best car but who can drive their car the best.

On a side not I hope you guys see the humour in this
I am having some Montreal Canadiens and Team Canada hockey T Shirts made up on the front it has Team Canada HOCKEY we are golden and the HABS ones just have a big Montreal Canadiens crest and on the back they have at the top IF HOCKEY WERE EASY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED

multiple choice here in brackets
Baseball
Football
Soccer
Golf
NASCAR

Nascar would do well supplying more roadcourse races it would show who the best drivers were not who had the best car but who could handle their car the best in both left and right turns.

On a side not I thought you guys would appreciate this bit of humour as I am having some t shirts printed up with Team Canada Hockey we are GOLDEN on the front and some with the Montreal Canadiens logo on the front on the back they will read as follows.

at the top

IF HOCKEY WERE EASY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED

(Baseball)
(Football)
(Soccer)
(Golf)
(Cheerleading)
(NACSAR)
ALL OF THE ABOVE with a box and checkmark in it beside it.

Jayski's.com

sorry about the mixup. can you cite where you got those ratings information? i'm curious. thanks.

Nacsar??

Nacsar??


Yep NACSAR it is the even crappier version of NASCAR LOL. I hate the no edit feature on here or sorry teh limited edit feature LOL and the double post that seemed to dissapear before I got finnished completing it and voila it is now back LOL.

In all honesty, NASCAR vehicles aren't designed to handle road courses. They weigh too much, they steer like trucks and their brakes are undersized.

It would be like Indy cars competing at the Drag Strip

If hockey were easy, it would be called field hockey and girls would play it in the grass!

I agree that NASCAR should return to its roots. They should stop using gas and use moonshine instead!:2cents

NASCAR, IMO, has put itself in a box and sealed it up. There is nothing they want to do to make the racing more interesting. The cars HAVE to be identical in all aspects.

Again, that is what made TRANS AM racing so exciting - just a CID restruction - 305 CI.

NASCAR is committed to the COT which will stop the bump drafting and probably cause them to use small restristor plates to once again slow the cars down to keep them