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At a crossroads ... my heart wants a Pioneer 5070, but a dealer points me towards

Eggsaronius
02-14-2007, 02:19 PM
Panasonic?? he claims Panasonic has a better picture .... and the fact that you can change the setup (cable inputs) over time is great .... said the Panasonic had a better picture...WTF?

BobY
02-14-2007, 02:27 PM
Personally, I think the Pioneer Plasmas look (and always have looked) way better than Panasonic, but I'm primarily interested in watching movies in subdued lighting.

Only you get to decide which picture is better! Why would you let someone who's primary intetest is making the most money he can off you try to tell you what *you* thought looked better?

Eggsaronius
02-14-2007, 02:32 PM
Personally, I think the Pioneer Plasmas look (and always have looked) way better than Panasonic, but I'm primarily interested in watching movies in subdued lighting.

Only you get to decide which picture is better! Why would you let someone who's primary intetest is making the most money he can off you try to tell you what *you* thought looked better?

I can make my own decisions on PQ....

...he did make a good point that the Panny can be upgraded over time .... once you get a pioneer ... what you see is what you get .... no changes. Thats whats making me think a little bit

BobY
02-14-2007, 02:40 PM
That may be important to you. Or better PQ may be more important. Only you can decide.

I'm not familiar with the "upgradability" of the Panasonic, but from experience, I wouldn't rely on "vaporware". Panasonic isn't obligated to supply upgrades, they have just made it possible.

What exactly can you upgrade on the Panasonic? Have you ever needed this ability on a previous TV you owned?

armasga
02-14-2007, 02:40 PM
My father in-law just got a Pioneer Elite PRO-1540HD plasma. He traded other Pioneer 60 inch RVP. AMAZING PQ!! My brother in-law has a 42" Panasonic ....Pioneer is a step above Panasonics PQ. My opinion.

Eggsaronius
02-14-2007, 02:59 PM
How long until all Plasmas go 1080?

BobY
02-14-2007, 03:08 PM
There are already a few 1080p Plasmas available from both Pioneer and Panasonic. Samsung just announced theirs as well.

No "upgrade" will ever increase the native resolution of the display, that's a fundamental physical limit of the panel. Just upgrading the input from 1080i to 1080p isn't going to change anything of consequence.

Eggsaronius
02-14-2007, 03:54 PM
There are already a few 1080p Plasmas available from both Pioneer and Panasonic. Samsung just announced theirs as well.

No "upgrade" will ever increase the native resolution of the display, that's a fundamental physical limit of the panel. Just upgrading the input from 1080i to 1080p isn't going to change anything of consequence.


I hear ya,...I guess what Im asking is .... should I wait to buy a Plasma? ...will it be months or years before a 1080p sells for around $3,000 where the 5070 is now

Thanks by the way!

Lee Stewart
02-14-2007, 05:16 PM
It should be months. The 1080P Plasma sets will start entering the markeyplace in the May June Time frame. The $3000 number that you mention should do it . . if you wait a few months after the intro to give the early adapters a chance to "must have it immediately and the heck with the price. "

One very interesting piece of info is that 1080P Plasma may be headed for 60" as opposed to 50" where most of the production is today.

Try www.HDGURU.com to see ALL the announcement from Jan CES by manufacturer and you will see models, delivery schedules and many times prices.

Lee

omeletpants
02-14-2007, 05:52 PM
What "upgradeability" are you talking about with Panasonic? Fact is if you buy a Panasonic low end now you are buying 2 year old technology. Yes, they have done nothing to improve those units so the video processor is old technology while everyone else is current.

BobY
02-14-2007, 05:55 PM
While the price of 1080p Plasmas is currently high (especially compared to 1080p LCD's), what you are looking at is the first generation of 1080p Plasmas and, even then, their prices have dropped significantly since introduction last summer (introduced at $10K, now selling under $5K).

The more companies that start making them, the more price competition. The more that get made, the lower the manufacturing cost. It won't be too long before 1080p Plasmas in that price range are common. I'm not sure it will be this year, but it's possible.

Personally, I would wait (in fact, I am--if I could get the Pioneer Pro-FHD1 for $3K, I would own it now), but you have to decide for yourself. The thing is, something like the PRO-FHD1 has everything *I* will need for years to come (1080p resolution, 1080p/24 input, 72Hz refresh rate and PQ is incredible), so I'm cool with waiting.

50" or 60"--hard to say. The fact that they can make a 50" 1080p Plasma is significant (you can't make a 1080p Plasma in a 42" width using current technology). 50" will always be cheaper than 60", but it's very tough to make a 60" LCD, so 1080p Plasmas may go the 60" route to keep a competitive leg up on LCD's.

s2mikey
02-14-2007, 06:17 PM
What "upgradeability" are you talking about with Panasonic? Fact is if you buy a Panasonic low end now you are buying 2 year old technology. Yes, they have done nothing to improve those units so the video processor is old technology while everyone else is current.

Old technology? Everyone else is current? Do you say this pertaining to being 1080p compatible? 1080p... like that old McDonalds commercial from years back..."Wheres the BEEF?" As in where is the content? Blu-Ray? Fine, they have a handful of titles. Video games? Thats not even a factor for many people. And of course the BIG clincher: NO HD brodcasts in 1080p now or in the near future. Networks can barely handle 1080i or 720 broadcasts. Not only that...but you cant see the difference between a good 1080i fed and a 1080p feed unless you sit 2 feet away from the TV and the TV is like 60"++ inches. C'mon now!

The Pios are great TVs but claiming that anyone with a PX60 series Panny has outdated technology needs glasses. What is outdated about Highly-regarded PQ and fair prices? Seems to me like thats a GREAT combination.... right?

I will say that the dealer is wrong though....Pio sets have damned solid picture quality and Panny is NOT better by any means. But, for overall value a Panny is a good choice.

Now I have to put on my "armor" as the rock-throwing Pioneer pimps prepare for an attck against me. :p

omeletpants
02-14-2007, 06:33 PM
The Pios are great TVs but claiming that anyone with a PX60 series Panny has outdated technology needs glasses.

The PX60 series uses the identical video processor that Panasonic was selling 2 years ago. They could have but have refused to upgrade or improve. You and Consumer Reports think Panny offers a good picture, but in side-by-side comparisions Panasonic always looks worst than any other of the top sets. Every time I see a panasonic it looks like crap. The SD is one of the worst and there are lots of video artifacts and noise on HD. Maybe if they upgraded their VP it would be better.

Rich_Guy
02-14-2007, 08:52 PM
Panasonic is not using "old" technology, The Panasonic professional models have one of the most highly regarded picture qualities and are also very reasonably priced. I have the Panasonic professional model 50PH9UK and LOVE IT, I have not seen a better picture quality anywhere.

Right now you can get an outstanding deal on this model at B&H Photo $1799.99 plus a free 5 year in home warranty from Panasonic, there was a $100.00 rebate also but I am not sure if it is still available.

s2mikey
02-14-2007, 09:06 PM
The PX60 series uses the identical video processor that Panasonic was selling 2 years ago. They could have but have refused to upgrade or improve. You and Consumer Reports think Panny offers a good picture, but in side-by-side comparisions Panasonic always looks worst than any other of the top sets. Every time I see a panasonic it looks like crap. The SD is one of the worst and there are lots of video artifacts and noise on HD. Maybe if they upgraded their VP it would be better.

Me, Consumer Reports, and about a zillion other happy users including Home Theater Magazine reviewers, Digital TV magazine, etc, etc, blah, blah. Where have you been? The PX60xxx series are very highly regarded throughout the industry and this is well known regardless of what you might think. Sure, a Pioneer that is almost twice the price SHOULD be better....duh? :rolleyes:

Where do they look bad? At your local BB or CC? Yeah, that's a valid place to demo a TV.... puhleeze!

SD looks like crap? Who cares? I bet Porsches run like crap off road in the mud too, doesnt make it a bad car. You buy HD TV's for HD content. Period. Their performance on SD is completely irrelevant. All HD TVs look pretty bad with crappy SD feeds. Just sit far enough away and its bearable and the Pannys are no better or worse than any other brand for SD.

Geeesh, rough crowd around here lately. It's time to break off a seperate forum so the Aristocracy of Pioneer & Other "High-end" brand owners can have their circle-jerks. Us poor follks will just suffer with our Sammy, Vizio, LG, and Panny plasma TVs. :rolleyes:

enmoco
02-14-2007, 10:16 PM
What "upgradeability" are you talking about with Panasonic? Fact is if you buy a Panasonic low end now you are buying 2 year old technology. Yes, they have done nothing to improve those units so the video processor is old technology while everyone else is current.By your question,you show your lack of knowledge concerning the technology Panny provides.Not belittling you,just a fact.A Panasonic "low" end pdp is quite a bit better than many,many other displays.You say "they have done nothing to improve......"etc.Your negativity on these displays is quite evident.You are certainly entitled to your opinion. All are. But,some people actually investigate and decide on a pdp based on facts. Facts.Proven performance for your dollar is seldom seen these days.
But,then that is merely my opinion.Fact? That is up to the folks who actually plan to purchase and enjoy the present day technology,rather than pontificate and expound on the shortcomings of this or that model.Opinion only.........:)

omeletpants
02-14-2007, 10:44 PM
By your question,you show your lack of knowledge concerning the technology Panny provides.Not belittling you,just a fact.A Panasonic "low" end pdp is quite a bit better than many,many other displays.You say "they have done nothing to improve......"etc.Your negativity on these displays is quite evident.You are certainly entitled to your opinion. All are. But,some people actually investigate and decide on a pdp based on facts. Facts.Proven performance for your dollar is seldom seen these days.
But,then that is merely my opinion.Fact? That is up to the folks who actually plan to purchase and enjoy the present day technology,rather than pontificate and expound on the shortcomings of this or that model.Opinion only.........:)

The VP Panasonic uses is the same one they sold 2 years ago and that's a fact confirmed by Panasonic. The have done nothing to improve their low end units in the last 2 years, except to issue the "clay face" firmware upgrade for a problem they have been denying for 2 years. Two years in plasma technology is a lifetime and you have to wonder why they haven't provided their customers with more and better technology. If you are happy with 2 year old technology then you are easily pleased and have low standards.

Fact is that Panasonic is lazy and is living off the Consumer Reports article from 2 years ago. Yes, it's always best to follow the recommendations of a washing machine testing company. All plasmas look good in your house but the real test is a side-by-side comparision and that where panasonic fails. People say "bad feeds, bad lighting, blah, blah", but the other sets have to deal with the same conditions. The Panasonic exhibits more noise and video artifacts than the other sets under the same conditions. Maybe if they sold a more current processor then they would provide a better picture.

Panasonic is in big trouble. Their market share is dropping and they are being beaten by Pioneer on the high end and Samsung at the entry level. Too bad that there are still a lot of lemmings that come into the store waving the CR article but not sure why they want a Panny

enmoco
02-14-2007, 11:05 PM
"If you are happy with 2 year old technology then you are easily pleased and have low standards."LOL.Okay,you win...I must admit though,your two assessments of me are highly inaccurate..I'm called a lot of things...those two aren't on the list...:bowdown:

omeletpants
02-14-2007, 11:18 PM
LOL.Okay,you win...I must admit though,your two assessments of me are highly inaccurate..I'm called a lot of things...those two aren't on the list...:bowdown:

Oh, come on. We are just having fun here plus I like your avatar. What I meant to say was "low standards, except you"

enmoco
02-14-2007, 11:26 PM
Oh, come on. We are just having fun here plus I like your avatar. What I meant to say was "low standards, except you"BTW....you can call me a lot of things....just don't calll me late for supper....:hithere:

Rich_Guy
02-15-2007, 12:14 AM
The VP Panasonic uses is the same one they sold 2 years ago and that's a fact confirmed by Panasonic. The have done nothing to improve their low end units in the last 2 years, except to issue the "clay face" firmware upgrade for a problem they have been denying for 2 years. Two years in plasma technology is a lifetime and you have to wonder why they haven't provided their customers with more and better technology. If you are happy with 2 year old technology then you are easily pleased and have low standards.

Fact is that Panasonic is lazy and is living off the Consumer Reports article from 2 years ago. Yes, it's always best to follow the recommendations of a washing machine testing company. All plasmas look good in your house but the real test is a side-by-side comparision and that where panasonic fails. People say "bad feeds, bad lighting, blah, blah", but the other sets have to deal with the same conditions. The Panasonic exhibits more noise and video artifacts than the other sets under the same conditions. Maybe if they sold a more current processor then they would provide a better picture.

Panasonic is in big trouble. Their market share is dropping and they are being beaten by Pioneer on the high end and Samsung at the entry level. Too bad that there are still a lot of lemmings that come into the store waving the CR article but not sure why they want a Panny

I have done the side by side tests and the Panasonic has been my choice every time. Panasonic is also the reference standard that many professional reviewers use to judge other brands as well and it is almost a given that Panasonic has the best black levels of any plasma available.

Market share dropping? Panasonic has had a fantastic year selling more plasma TV's than any other brand. Panasonic keeps improving and even though it is at the low level in price it is only matched by the highest levels in PQ.

enmoco
02-15-2007, 12:25 AM
I have done the side by side tests and the Panasonic has been my choice every time. Panasonic is also the reference standard that many professional reviewers use to judge other brands as well and it is almost a given that Panasonic has the best black levels of any plasma available.

Market share dropping? Panasonic has had a fantastic year selling more plasma TV's than any other brand. Panasonic keeps improving and even though it is at the low level in price it is only matched by the highest levels in PQ.A simple rule of economics.They are coming down in price because they sell the most. More revenue,less R&D expense recovery needed. Own panels,fewer jobers on parts,equals larger profits. Their market share is unrivaled and will remain so for a while. If it ain't broke,don't fix it.

omeletpants
02-15-2007, 12:26 AM
Panasonic's market share has dropped over the last year. Pansonic is not improving and is offering you the same technology they were offering 2 years ago. If you are satisfied with that then fine. Fact is that Panasonic paniced a few months ago and dramatically slashed their prices because of the pressure from others. When you have a world-class product you don't have to do that.

enmoco
02-15-2007, 12:40 AM
Panasonic's market share has dropped over the last year. Pansonic is not improving and is offering you the same technology they were offering 2 years ago. If you are satisfied with that then fine. Fact is that Panasonic paniced a few months ago and dramatically slashed their prices because of the pressure from others. When you have a world-class product you don't have to do that.Pardon me,Your way out of your element here. I,again,mean no disrespect,but your talking out of your hat.They reduced prices a few months ago because that is the prime retail selling period (Thanksgiving,Christmas,up until Feb. now,with the Superbowl> zenith of sales< being later).They did this to the great the glee of retailers ALL OVER THE WORLD.People somehow think we here are the only PDP market.CES in January,release of new models,all factor into a price reduction. Profits GO UP.I'm not just making this up.Your thinking on this rant of yours is very fuzzy.IMHO..........of course,I could be full of beans............;)

Rich_Guy
02-15-2007, 12:54 AM
Panasonic's market share has dropped over the last year. Pansonic is not improving and is offering you the same technology they were offering 2 years ago. If you are satisfied with that then fine. Fact is that Panasonic paniced a few months ago and dramatically slashed their prices because of the pressure from others. When you have a world-class product you don't have to do that.

We obviously disagree, and Panasonic is doing excellent right now both in there market share and their amazing quality plasma displays. Not sure where you get your statistics but I have read Panasonic was the best selling plasma of 2006 and has had an amazing year with record sales on plasma TVs. There was only one other model I considered was in the competition when I bought my Panasonic TH-50PH9UK a little over a month ago and that was Pioneer. Since I could get the Panasonic for half the price of the Pioneer and with a free 5 year in home warranty it was an easy choice as both had amazing PQ that out shined the rest. I shopped very carefully when buying my TV and right now Panasonic clearly leads the rest.

lrodptl
02-15-2007, 02:29 AM
The VP Panasonic uses is the same one they sold 2 years ago and that's a fact confirmed by Panasonic. The have done nothing to improve their low end units in the last 2 years, except to issue the "clay face" firmware upgrade for a problem they have been denying for 2 years. Two years in plasma technology is a lifetime and you have to wonder why they haven't provided their customers with more and better technology. If you are happy with 2 year old technology then you are easily pleased and have low standards.

Fact is that Panasonic is lazy and is living off the Consumer Reports article from 2 years ago. Yes, it's always best to follow the recommendations of a washing machine testing company. All plasmas look good in your house but the real test is a side-by-side comparision and that where panasonic fails. People say "bad feeds, bad lighting, blah, blah", but the other sets have to deal with the same conditions. The Panasonic exhibits more noise and video artifacts than the other sets under the same conditions. Maybe if they sold a more current processor then they would provide a better picture.

Panasonic is in big trouble. Their market share is dropping and they are being beaten by Pioneer on the high end and Samsung at the entry level. Too bad that there are still a lot of lemmings that come into the store waving the CR article but not sure why they want a Panny
The ISF calibrator who did my set (LION AV) said that after 2000 calibrations he'd give the Pioneer a slight edge over the Panasonic monitor model followed by the Panasonic 60 series. His opinion was that the difference was small.

s2mikey
02-15-2007, 09:01 AM
:rolleyes: Panasonic's market share has dropped over the last year. Pansonic is not improving and is offering you the same technology they were offering 2 years ago. If you are satisfied with that then fine. Fact is that Panasonic paniced a few months ago and dramatically slashed their prices because of the pressure from others. When you have a world-class product you don't have to do that.

Omelete....just admit it.... one of two things MUST be driving your hatred:

1) You OVERPAID for a Pioneer and you lose sleep at night because you have to somehow justify it on internet chat forums by clainming that Panny sucks. Your use of completely UNsubstantiated stats and comments is freegin silly.... how old are you? Wah, wah, wah.:rolleyes:
2) You or a loved one got laid off or fired from a Panasonic factory.
3) You own stock in Pioneer and or Samsung.

As I said before, there are TONS of positive reviews for Pannys all over the place in magazines, online, etc, etc. Go ahead though keep denying it.., if you keep denying then it will eventually come true...right?

I guess all of us, including video hobyists that have a LOT more credibility than you just have "low standards".

BTW: My Panasonic washer and dryer set is AWESOME! :bowdown:

:cool:

omeletpants
02-15-2007, 09:16 AM
Mikey, Panasonic was already the sales leader and I don't claim they have lost that position. What I claim is that they are losing market share, which is true. Their recent price drop was in response to losing share. You don't drop your prices in a prime buying season when you have command of the marketplace. They did this because of pressure from Pioneer, Visio and Samsung.

I don't care about the lemmings and what's popular, just what's best. If popular were the criteria then Michael Jackson's Thriller albumn is the greatest rock music ever. Panny has lived off their CR reputation and has done nothing to imporve their technology in 2 years. No one can explain all the video noise and artifacts I see in the Panny picture compared to the others. I can't make people raise their standards. I know plenty of calibrators that have said the Panny picture is overated.

Rich_Guy
02-15-2007, 11:28 AM
Mikey, Panasonic was already the sales leader and I don't claim they have lost that position. What I claim is that they are losing market share, which is true. Their recent price drop was in response to losing share. You don't drop your prices in a prime buying season when you have command of the marketplace. They did this because of pressure from Pioneer, Visio and Samsung.

I don't care about the lemmings and what's popular, just what's best. If popular were the criteria then Michael Jackson's Thriller albumn is the greatest rock music ever. Panny has lived off their CR reputation and has done nothing to imporve their technology in 2 years. No one can explain all the video noise and artifacts I see in the Panny picture compared to the others. I can't make people raise their standards. I know plenty of calibrators that have said the Panny picture is overated.

Panasonic has had several improvements and new models in that time and are considered by many to be the top plasma display. Other brands are still trying to achieve Panasonics black and dark scene levels. You can try to bash them all you want but there is no video noise or artifacts as you claim, maybe you need to view a different source as Panasonic has almost none of these and is one of the very best displays at any price level.

I compared many other brands side by side when shopping for my TV and Panasonic was the best picture quality every time and is as close to flawless as any I have ever seen. I now own the Panasonic professional model TH-50PH9UK and it is not beaten by any other display I have ever seen at any price. Every display calibrator I have ever heard from has only put Panasonic as either the best or second best of all the displays they have worked with.

s2mikey
02-15-2007, 12:11 PM
Mikey, Panasonic was already the sales leader and I don't claim they have lost that position. What I claim is that they are losing market share, which is true. Their recent price drop was in response to losing share. You don't drop your prices in a prime buying season when you have command of the marketplace. They did this because of pressure from Pioneer, Visio and Samsung.

I don't care about the lemmings and what's popular, just what's best. If popular were the criteria then Michael Jackson's Thriller albumn is the greatest rock music ever. Panny has lived off their CR reputation and has done nothing to imporve their technology in 2 years. No one can explain all the video noise and artifacts I see in the Panny picture compared to the others. I can't make people raise their standards. I know plenty of calibrators that have said the Panny picture is overated.

Fine...whats the point anyways? What is "best"? Are you the ultimate TV judge? If so, can you send me the updated list of "Approved" TVs so I can run out and buy one? A lot of buyers do not want or need the absolute top of the line TVs or dont have the money for them. Sounds like you are "Cost no object" or nothing. Fine, glad you made it big...but lots of us have other stuff to buy as well so we have to look for value. And Pannys are great values, period. As for your beloved Brand X TV, I would HOPE they are much better than anything else since they cost so much more.... right?

Claiming that Panny lives off of CR is just a little bit of a stretch though. Pick up the latest issue of whatever decent video magazine you want and the reviews are for the most part positive towards Panny stuff...especially when value is taken into account. Take a look around at this forum and others.... the verdict is in: These are good sets and represent a good value. Are they the best available? Nope. Are there better TVs? Sure...but the cost is exponentially higher for sometimes marginal performance gains that us "low-standard" bonehead consumers wont see anyways.

The whole "standards" thing is sort of an insult to the zillion Panny ( or other brands you hate )owners out there but if thats the way you feel then so be it. Isnt this subjective anyways? Suppose someone says that Pioneer sucks? Is that now a fact? I think Pios are good sets but they *seem* overpriced. My opinion. Its obvious that LOTS of other people feel the same way or we would ALL have Pios then wouldnt we?

Hey, enjoy whatever "Top of the line" TV you currently own...I hope it meets your standards:rolleyes: However, I will always be answering posts where people ask about Tv purchases and I will always mention Panny as a viable choice.

:)

omeletpants
02-15-2007, 12:43 PM
Panasonic has had several improvements and new models in that time and are considered by many to be the top plasma display.

It would be nice if you could name those improvements but you can't because it's the identical VP as they were selling two years ago. Oh, they did issue a "clay face" firmware fix for a problem they continually denied having

omeletpants
02-15-2007, 12:52 PM
Mikey, it's very tough to claim what is best but that's not the point. My beef is the blind Panasonic lemmings that drink the kool-aid. People walk into stores demanding a Panasonic yet they are unwilling to even consider another brand even when that brand looks better to them. When I talk to salesmen they tell me this is the profile of the typical Panny buyer who comes in waving the CR article.

The second gripe is Panasonic. They are lazy and have ridden the CR article to great popularity but have done nothing for the consumer to improve their product over the last two years. It's the same video processor they were selling two years ago therefore the panny displays more video artifacts than their competitors. Secondly, they lied about the "clay face" problem, but of course now they have issued a fix for a problem they say never existed. Finally, they were too lazy and cheap to change the bezel color to black when that was the number 1 complaint of their customers. They refused to do that becuase they didn't want to introduce another part into their production and service inventory. So, it's pretty obvious that it's all about them and little about their customers.

unotis
02-15-2007, 01:09 PM
I know there are people that hate (literally) certain manufacturers.

Panasonic, Sony(quite a few on this forum), LG, Sharp, it does not matter if why they hate the company is true or not, as long as they believe that the so called facts are true is what matters to them.

My only compaint when it comes to Panasonic plasma televisons is not their picture quality (which is excellent) nor their value, it is that the exterior of their enclosures are not as nice looking as the LG, Pioneer or Samsung plasmas in look.

the person has to decide if this small difference is important to them or not (it might just be my preference in look and not everyone's).

Stealth
02-15-2007, 01:14 PM
go with your heart, you wont be disapointed.

s2mikey
02-15-2007, 02:00 PM
Mikey, it's very tough to claim what is best but that's not the point. My beef is the blind Panasonic lemmings that drink the kool-aid. People walk into stores demanding a Panasonic yet they are unwilling to even consider another brand even when that brand looks better to them. When I talk to salesmen they tell me this is the profile of the typical Panny buyer who comes in waving the CR article.

The second gripe is Panasonic. They are lazy and have ridden the CR article to great popularity but have done nothing for the consumer to improve their product over the last two years. It's the same video processor they were selling two years ago therefore the panny displays more video artifacts than their competitors. Secondly, they lied about the "clay face" problem, but of course now they have issued a fix for a problem they say never existed. Finally, they were too lazy and cheap to change the bezel color to black when that was the number 1 complaint of their customers. They refused to do that becuase they didn't want to introduce another part into their production and service inventory. So, it's pretty obvious that it's all about them and little about their customers.

I'm with you 100% on the "lemmings that walk in and ask for Panny without any demo or actual data". If thats what some people are doing then they are fools. I personally tried a Sharp 42" LCD after being happy with my 32" inch Sharp LCD. The Sharp just didnt cut it. I then tried the Panny 42" set after seeing several quality reviews and other seemingly happy owners. It was considerably better than the Sharp and it really worked out well for me at home and that was the clincher. Prior to having the panny at home I was an LCD "horn-blower" and didnt even want to try Plasma! Glad I did!

As for the clay face issue, I do understand that there are some sets with this problem. If you dig through the threads you'll find that lots of it had to do with poor settings and uncalibrated TVs. In some cases the issue was taken care of with settings changes. Torch mode on a Panny does look pretty rough. However, once dialed in the picture really looks pretty natural or neutral. There is also a firmware upgrade that takes care of some of the clay-face complaints. My TV didnt have this problem so I really cant comment on how long its been there...if Panny has been ignoring it then that is BAD.

The silver bezel does kind of suck.... but my other gear is silver and you do get used to it. It will drive some people crazy and I understand that!

I guess what I'd like to see here and on other forums is for everyone to simply offer an opinion and try to back it with some realistic reasons as to why they feel that way. Even if you had a BAD experience...thats cool but tell us why. Dont just spew brand-hate because you just dont like it. I'm tired of the "Panansonic sucks", "Dont buy Hitachi", or "Samsung sucks" replies when newbies are shopping for a TV. Why say those things when it appears to be just out of spite? A lot of guys want to spend a little less than what a Pioneer Elite costs so do we just tell them that its hopeless? Thats totally NOT true and you know it. 100% negativity with no basis for it is NON-constructive and makes the poster sound like a disgruntled postal employee instead of a helpful forum member...ya know? :eek:

So... OK its all good right? ;)

Rich_Guy
02-15-2007, 02:15 PM
My only compaint when it comes to Panasonic plasma televisons is not their picture quality (which is excellent) nor their value, it is that the exterior of their enclosures are not as nice looking as the LG, Pioneer or Samsung plasmas in look.



That is one nice thing about the professional model Panasonic displays they look very nice with a very classy look. This model is widely used on TV news programs and is also used on the show 24 in both the white house and also the agency control room on the show. It is a very classy and professional look a minimal frame surrounding the screen smaller than most others in black and very dark grey.

1294

omeletpants
02-15-2007, 02:48 PM
Mikey, great post. I try not to be a fan boy and there is room for everyone to like something different. If a guy has had a great expereince with panasonic then I'm happy for him. I just hate the lemmings that have made up their minds before comparing

s2mikey
02-15-2007, 05:23 PM
Mikey, great post. I try not to be a fan boy and there is room for everyone to like something different. If a guy has had a great expereince with panasonic then I'm happy for him. I just hate the lemmings that have made up their minds before comparing

Yes...they are idiots and should know better than to drop $1500++ bucks without even turning the TV on. :rolleyes:

Peace....;)

lrodptl
02-15-2007, 08:47 PM
Mikey, Panasonic was already the sales leader and I don't claim they have lost that position. What I claim is that they are losing market share, which is true. Their recent price drop was in response to losing share. You don't drop your prices in a prime buying season when you have command of the marketplace. They did this because of pressure from Pioneer, Visio and Samsung.

I don't care about the lemmings and what's popular, just what's best. If popular were the criteria then Michael Jackson's Thriller albumn is the greatest rock music ever. Panny has lived off their CR reputation and has done nothing to imporve their technology in 2 years. No one can explain all the video noise and artifacts I see in the Panny picture compared to the others. I can't make people raise their standards. I know plenty of calibrators that have said the Panny picture is overated.
Name one so I can contact him.

omeletpants
02-15-2007, 09:12 PM
Name one so I can contact him.

Reveal the names of unsuspecting calibrators to internet serial killers. Good idea :eek:

enmoco
02-16-2007, 12:19 PM
Reveal the names of unsuspecting calibrators to internet serial killers. Good idea :eek:I like your new avatar.......pretty accurate.;)

omeletpants
02-16-2007, 01:00 PM
I like your new avatar.......pretty accurate.;)

Really, some of the questions are very lame.

lrodptl
02-16-2007, 01:19 PM
Reveal the names of unsuspecting calibrators to internet serial killers. Good idea :eek:
Back up what you say with a calibrators name as I have done.The calibrator I hired encourages people to put his name on these sites to generate business. He said that Pioneer,Panasonic Commercial and Pan 60 series were the best he's seen as of 4 months ago! Greg Lloewen@lionav.com.Now all you internet serial killers (huh?) out there do your stuff. You can't just throw this crap around,it's irresponsible BS.

omeletpants
02-16-2007, 01:39 PM
Back up what you say with a calibrators name as I have done.The calibrator I hired encourages people to put his name on these sites to generate business. He said that Pioneer,Panasonic Commercial and Pan 60 series were the best he's seen as of 4 months ago! Greg Lloewen@lionav.com.Now all you internet serial killers (huh?) out there do your stuff. You can't just throw this crap around,it's irresponsible BS.

I'm not naming anyone's name on the internet for the same reason you don't use your real name. I don't want psychos like you calling them.

lrodptl
02-16-2007, 01:40 PM
I'm not naming anyone's name on the internet for the same reason you don't use your real name. I don't want psychos like you calling them.
No credibility then.

omeletpants
02-16-2007, 01:53 PM
No credibility then.

Let's do this, Norman Bates. You post your name, address, home and cell phone number, social security number, email address. I will check you out then I will post the information you asked. so when you start harrassing the guy he knows who you are.

s2mikey
02-16-2007, 03:19 PM
Let's do this, Norman Bates. You post your name, address, home and cell phone number, social security number, email address. I will check you out then I will post the information you asked. so when you start harrassing the guy he knows who you are.

We hear what you're saying Omelete, but as per our little heated "discussion" on this very thread ;) you can't just throw things out there on a whim and expect to have everyone just drop what they're doing and say "Oh, OK."

I understand that Panny is NOT one of your favorite brands. Thats cool, I have some brands that I dont like and will never buy either...but you gotta stay away from the whiny-sounding rants. They just dont have any weight, my friend.

Seriously, you obviously have some good things to contribute to the forums but this barrage of pointless, meaningless Panny hatred rhetoric is NOT a good contribution. C'mon bro, you can do better!

omeletpants
02-16-2007, 03:55 PM
I had a calibrator at my house two weeks ago and he said the Panasonics are overated. Now, do you think I'm going to name him in a public forum so our mental institution friend can call him and harass him? Before I expose him to that abuse, I want Norman Bates to post all his pertinant personal information for the harrassment trial and subsequent sentencing.

BTW, I have seen those comments on the AVS also. I'm sure Mr. Psycho wants the links to all those quotes also. But I would tell Mr. Charles Manson to find them himself as I don't bookmark every thread I have ever read in my life.

lrodptl
02-16-2007, 05:28 PM
I had a calibrator at my house two weeks ago and he said the Panasonics are overated. Now, do you think I'm going to name him in a public forum so our mental institution friend can call him and harass him? Before I expose him to that abuse, I want Norman Bates to post all his pertinant personal information for the harrassment trial and subsequent sentencing.

BTW, I have seen those comments on the AVS also. I'm sure Mr. Psycho wants the links to all those quotes also. But I would tell Mr. Charles Manson to find them himself as I don't bookmark every thread I have ever read in my life.
As well as having no technical credibility,you are confirming that you are a poor judge of character as well as a raving paranoia.You gotta do better than to make ridiculous claims of pyschomania as your reason for not enlightening us to your source(s).I mean are you really saying that I would harass some calibrator not known to me because of an opinion.At least the mysterious calibrator(s) opinion would be fortified by experience.Please reread your own posts and make a conclusion.

omeletpants
02-16-2007, 05:44 PM
As well as having no technical credibility,you are confirming that you are a poor judge of character as well as a raving paranoia.You gotta do better than to make ridiculous claims of pyschomania as your reason for not enlightening us to your source(s).I mean are you really saying that I would harass some calibrator not known to me because of an opinion.At least the mysterious calibrator(s) opinion would be fortified by experience.Please reread your own posts and make a conclusion.

Then why are you so hellbound on obtaining names? Names allow serial killers to track calibrators down and persecute them for their beliefs. And isn't escaping persecution the reason our forefathers fled England in the Mayflower? Isn't that the reason that the eagle flies high and free? Isn't that the reason that the little acorn one day grows into the mighty oak?

Well Sir, I will not allow you to defame the United States of America and all we have built in the last 230 years just so you can stalk and terrorize other Americans with your fancy words. This is a country that is built on the premise that all men are created equal, except for the banjo playing kid in the movie Deliverance, and I will not sit back and let you destroy the American way of life. Good day, Sir!

unotis
02-16-2007, 06:00 PM
Then why are you so hellbound on obtaining names? Names allow serial killers to track calibrators down and persecute them for their beliefs. And isn't escaping persecution the reason our forefathers fled England in the Mayflower? Isn't that the reason that the eagle flies high and free? Isn't that the reason that the little acorn one day grows into the mighty oak?

Well Sir, I will not allow you to defame the United States of America and all we have built in the last 230 years just so you can stalk and terrorize other Americans with your fancy words. This is a country that is built on the premise that all men are created equal, except for the banjo playing kid in the movie Deliverance, and I will not sit back and let you destroy the American way of life. Good day, Sir!

Well this debate is getting old, both of you have good points but repeating them ad naseum will do nobody any good.

I will say that it is not a good idea to place names and phone numbers of private indviduals on the forum but, if they are business men who do services (such as calibrations) their names and phone numbers are already available to the public and it cannot do any harm.

So I can see why one side says "give a reference" and the other "will not" even because of his refusal it makes it looks like he is hiding not having the reference at all in the first place and just blowing smoke. :confused:

lrodptl
02-16-2007, 07:26 PM
Well this debate is getting old, both of you have good points but repeating them ad naseum will do nobody any good.

I will say that it is not a good idea to place names and phone numbers of private indviduals on the forum but, if they are business men who do services (such as calibrations) their names and phone numbers are already available to the public and it cannot do any harm.

So I can see why one side says "give a reference" and the other "will not" even because of his refusal it makes it looks like he is hiding not having the reference at all in the first place and just blowing smoke. :confused:
I'm out.

BobY
02-16-2007, 07:38 PM
Sorry, I think this is getting silly.

I don't think the American way of life is at stake.

I'm perfectly willing to believe there are some calibrators who think Panasonic is overated without having their names and vital information. So What? It's a matter of opinion. Calibrators are human beings too and their *opinions* are no more right than anybody else's.

I don't know if Panasonic is overated but I *do* know I think Pioneer Plasmas look better. If I had to put it in words, I think Panasonic Plasmas look more accurate and Pioneer Plasmas look richer. Personally, I like richer. My opinion. Decide for yourself...

lrodptl
02-16-2007, 07:52 PM
Sorry, I think this is getting silly.

I don't think the American way of life is at stake.

I'm perfectly willing to believe there are some calibrators who think Panasonic is overated without having their names and vital information. So What? It's a matter of opinion. Calibrators are human beings too and their *opinions* are no more right than anybody else's.

I don't know if Panasonic is overated but I *do* know I think Pioneer Plasmas look better. If I had to put it in words, I think Panasonic Plasmas look more accurate and Pioneer Plasmas look richer. Personally, I like richer. My opinion. Decide for yourself...
A calibrator is a businessman and businessman need to advertise.I gave the e-mail of the calibrator who opined to me on PQ and I was asking for the name of the calibrators he referred to so I could get the facts,not the hyperbole. I would presume that a calibrator's opinion has a lot more base and substance than any of ours.To exaggerate this request into a SS#,name and address request is nothing more than lunacy.I'm also a businessman but my number,name and address is a secret and soon I'll be broke!

lrodptl
02-16-2007, 07:54 PM
Oh yeah,I'm out!

enmoco
02-16-2007, 08:12 PM
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/news/2007/02/_new_page_1_dis_1.php Plasma TV revenues were up 7% Q/Q, but fell 4% Y/Y to $5.0B, the first quarter plasma TV revenues have declined Y/Y due to loss of share to LCDs at 40-44" and rapid price erosion. Plasma TV ASPs fell 20% Q/Q and 29% Y/Y to $1643. Plasma TVs overtook microdisplay RPTVs for the first time at 50"+ in Q4'06 with a narrow 42.5% to 42.3% advantage, led the 50-54" TV market with a 55% share, grew 34% Q/Q and 35% Y/Y to a record 3.1M TVs, and grew the 50"+ share of total plasma TV shipments from 13% in Q4'05 to 23% in Q4'06. However, this growth was insufficient to offset the aggressive price declines. For the year, plasma TV shipments rose 57% to 9.2M units, while plasma TV revenues grew 22% to $18.5B on a 22% decline in ASPs.(average sale price) In Q4'06, 37" plasma TVs had the fastest Q/Q growth on strong demand in Japan and Europe, while 60"+ plasma TVs had the highest Y/Y growth on strong North American demand. While only North America experienced plasma TV unit growth in Q3'06, all regions experienced Q/Q growth in Q4'06; however, China was down Y/Y due to lack of emphasis by the domestic Chinese brands and China's emphasis on smaller sizes. North America remained the top region for plasma with a 38% share and accounted for 63% of all plasma TV shipments at 50"+. Panasonic remained the dominant brand in Q4'06 with a 32% unit and 33% revenue share. On both unit and revenue shares, LGE remained #2 followed by Samsung, Philips, Hitachi and Pioneer. For the year, Panasonic led with a 29% revenue share followed by LGE at 16%, Samsung at 14%, Philips at 10%, Hitachi at 8% and Pioneer at 7%.

enmoco
02-16-2007, 08:18 PM
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/best-hdtvs.php The top 5 TVs (based on rating) are listed below. These include TVs with at least 2 reviews. (Has been posted for a while now)

Top 5 Plasma Televisions
(7 reviews) PANASONIC TH-42PX600U 42" Plasma HDTV Television - $1,999.88
(6 reviews) Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK 50" Plasma HDTV - $2,465.00
(6 reviews) Panasonic TH-42PHD8UK 42" Plasma HDTV Monitor - $1,699.00
(6 reviews) Pioneer PDP-4270HD PureVision 42" Plasma HDTV - $3,499.99
(6 reviews) Panasonic TH-50PX500U 50" Flat Panel HD-Ready Plasma TV - $5,499.95

omeletpants
02-16-2007, 08:35 PM
I was asking for the name of the calibrators he referred to so I could get the facts,not the hyperbole.

So, your intention WAS to call the calibrator on this. You are a stalker. That's sick. Thank god I didn't give you names or you would be harrassing them right now. You need professional help. This is just an internet board.

BobY
02-16-2007, 10:13 PM
No, a calibrator's opinion about what looks better or what's overated is no better than my opinion or anyone else's.

Their opinion about accuracy, adjustability, reliability and other objective aspects is certainly more valid than my limited experience, but I simply don't take anyone's opinion but my own on how good something looks or sounds and whether it is worth it.

lrodptl
02-17-2007, 12:41 AM
No, a calibrator's opinion about what looks better or what's overated is no better than my opinion or anyone else's.

Their opinion about accuracy, adjustability, reliability and other objective aspects is certainly more valid than my limited experience, but I simply don't take anyone's opinion but my own on how good something looks or sounds and whether it is worth it.
Really? So he tells me he has calibrated 2000 tv's and 200 Panasonics and 200 Pioneers and his opinion on PQ is equal to yours or mine.That is truly absurd and most everyone who reads this knows that. CR ratings on PQ are opinion equally weighted to yours and mine as are CNET,HDguru. PQ is not just opinion,it is real substance,just as 1 tv weighs more than another,it is what it is.I gotta stop getting sucked in by this absolute nonsense.

lrodptl
02-17-2007, 12:45 AM
So, your intention WAS to call the calibrator on this. You are a stalker. That's sick. Thank god I didn't give you names or you would be harrassing them right now. You need professional help. This is just an internet board.
You,my non friend,are a moron,an absolute simpleton whose conclusions border on rock,scissors,paper!

BobY
02-17-2007, 10:31 AM
PQ stands for Picture *Quality*.

Quality has many objective aspects, such as accuracy, clarity, reliability, etc.

It also has many subjective aspects which are *strictly* personal preference.

Just as I have heard high-end audio systems which have been painstakingly adjusted to be ruler-flat and which sound terrible to me--dead and lifeless--I have seen professionally calibrated displays that look poor to me--cold, flat and lifeless. I don't care if my picture is accurate, I want it to look good and I am the only one who gets to decide what looks good to me.

For example, I primarily watch films in subdued lighting or in the dark. I like vivid, saturated colors. A professional calibrator would probably say I'm nuts to adjust my display the way I have it. I say I would be nuts to pay someone to adjust the display to something I didn't like. Meanwhile I routinely get compliments from friends and family on how good my picture looks.

There is no reason a professional calibrator's opinion about *subjective* preferences is any more valid than mine or anyone else's. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. If you can't decide what you like and need to pay someone to decide for you, that's not anyone's problem but your own. I'm not against professional calibrators or anyone hiring a calibrator to adjust their display if that's what they want to do, but please don't try to tell me that just because their display was professionally calibrated the picture is automatically "better" than mine.

And I don't care how many displays someone has calibrated, it's still a totally subjective, personal opinion whether something is overrated or not or whether something is worth it or not.

IMHO, Panasonic Plasmas just don't have the depth and richness *I* see in Pioneer Plasmas. No one can dispute that, not even the most experienced calibrator, because it's my opinion of a subjective matter. They may disagree with my opinion because they have a different subjective opinion, but not based on any objective criteria.

s2mikey
02-17-2007, 10:51 AM
There is no reason a professional calibrator's opinion about *subjective* preferences is any more valid than mine or anyone else's. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. If you can't decide what you like and need to pay someone to decide for you, that's not anyone's problem but your own. I'm not against professional calibrators or anyone hiring a calibrator to adjust their display if that's what they want to do, but please don't try to tell me that just because their display was professionally calibrated the picture is automatically "better" than mine.

And I don't care how many displays someone has calibrated, it's still a totally subjective, personal opinion whether something is overrated or not or whether something is worth it or not.

IMHO, Panasonic Plasmas just don't have the depth and richness *I* see in Pioneer Plasmas. No one can dispute that, not even the most experienced calibrator, because it's my opinion of a subjective matter. They may disagree with my opinion because they have a different subjective opinion, but not based on any objective criteria.

Good way to put it, especially about the calibration stuff. Just as you and other people feel the Pio is the "right" TV, me and others feel the Panny does the trick and at considerably less cost. Totally subjective as you said!

;)

Rich_Guy
02-17-2007, 11:47 PM
It would be nice if you could name those improvements but you can't because it's the identical VP as they were selling two years ago. Oh, they did issue a "clay face" firmware fix for a problem they continually denied having

Here you go.

Orlando, FL (June 7, 2006) — Panasonic, the industry leader in plasma manufacturing and sales, unveiled its newest generation of professional plasma displays – the 9-Series professional models. Raising the bar in plasma display technology once more, this advanced display series features key high-performance improvements, including higher video capabilities, greater flexibility and a thin, lighter design. The new series includes three high definition panels – 50” TH-50PH9UK, 42” TH-42PH9UK, and 37” TH-37PH9UK as well as the standard definition 42” TH-42PS9UK.

The 9-Series professional plasma displays feature a number of industry-leading technologies, including 16-bit digital signal processing and improved sub-field driving technology to reproduce 3,072 steps of gradation, the highest contrast level (10,000:1), and the highest bright-area contrast (400:1). The new Real Black Creation color-enhancing feature produces high-contrast and rich, deep blacks resulting in an impressively high contrast level (10,000:1). Included in its outstanding features are a Contrast Management System that perfects the color of each individual portion of the image displayed and a high-precision Motion Pattern Noise Reduction circuit to provide a consistently sharp image across the entire image during fast-paced scenes.

“As the world’s leader in plasma technology, Panasonic professional plasma displays are renowned for their exceptional image quality and versatility,” said Robert Harris, Vice President of Marketing for Panasonic Broadcast. “Flexibility is key for today’s display user. Our displays combine high-quality color performance with a variety of connection options, resulting in an ‘all-in-one’ solution that is tailored to their needs.”

The 9-Series models feature a new lightweight design, with overall weight reduced by up to 15% over previous models, making installation and maintenance easier. New panel improvements and phosphor technologies dramatically increase burn-in resistance and provide these long-lasting displays with an impressive 60,000-hour service life.

“The new, propriety phosphor technology in the 9-Series panels enables them to significantly resist burn-in as effectively as CRT displays,” said Harris. “With stunning video quality, higher performance and a long life cycle, the 9-Series continues to make Panasonic’s professional plasmas unmatched values and a terrific investment for professional uses.”