Better than AntennaWeb. All you need to know about your local OTA stations.

This is a complete 'How To' use the site '2150.com':

I've done this many times for individuals that are having issues receiving stations or have no idea what/where they are or even if they are within range.
It's too bad AntennaWeb always gets referenced. It's no doubt for it's 'simplified' interface. I find it VERY lacking, failing for these reasons:
1. Most that come to an internet forum are not your average 'joe sixpack' and can comprehend something better then just simple color charts.
2. No idea how/where those results come from.
3. It gives you no data for transmitter output or antenna height which tells you nothing.
4. It is sponsored by the CEA which is only in the business to sell you something.
There also is a site called TVFool. The results are graphs and pie charts, but they are way too small, cluttered and hard to read. The site substitutes computer (http://www.highdefforum.com/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=67311#) modeled speculation for actual ERP and HAAT data. There's too many variables involved to bother guessing received signal levels.

Just a few initial steps are all that is needed to have a far superior list for your local stations. It even includes Canada, where that 'other' site doesn't seem to know the country exists.

Step 1; Go here and enter your zip code, then click 'search' (it will give your approximate coordinates);
http://geocoder.ibegin.com/geolive.php?view=auto (http://geocoder.ibegin.com/geolive.php?view=auto)

Step 2; Do a copy/paste of those coordinates watching exactly what you copy. Include the '-' in the longitude with no spaces before either number and then go here;
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp (http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp)

Step 3; Select how you want the search to be configured. Choose the distance you want to cover and be sure to check "Include Expired Records" and "Include Construction Permits"! I check also "By distance".

Step 4; To be really accurate you need to find the magnetic declination of you location. A zip code should is sufficient. The results now include a map with a compass showing magnetic north and true north;
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/Declination.jsp (http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/Declination.jsp)

Step 5; Click on "Compute Declination" and do a C&P to the space provided at the 2150 site (default is -13.25) and click on "Show Stations".

Step 6; If you are satisfied with the results you can 'save' this list as a bookmark by clicking on the "Bookmark this link to save this report" link which will bring up another window. This way, all you have to do is refer back to this bookmark (after you saved it in your bookmarks) and all your data is there.

Notes;
Column 3; Channel, the first is the actual digital channel, the one in () is the original analog number. Unfortunately, this doesn't show if the station will be reverting back to their original channel (as of yet).
Column 10; HAAT (Height Above Average Terrain) this isn't just the tower height, but a combination of that height and the average elevation of the surrounding area. ERP (http://www.highdefforum.com/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=67311#) (Effective Radiated Power) is not the transmitter output, but the combined gain and loss of the system.
Column 11; The circle with the dot in the center is the transmitter location, NOT your location! Where that red line meets the outer circle is YOU!
Aim your antenna at the center.
Column 12; If you click on that image, it will show you a map of the transmitter location. Please note, the city stated for the licenesse is rarely where the xmitter is actually located. Some may be 30 miles away.

Hope this helps................

Am I missing something - it does not list the major networks. ABC, NBC, and CBS are MIA

It's a useful site but the database is so out of date, many stations don't appear at all, possibly because the database still has them at low power or the temporary operating license in the database has passed its expiry date.

The database is from the FCC. If there are errors compalin to them. The FCC is well know for outdated data. There are stations listed that haven't been on the air for a decade. This applies for 2-way licences also. Been that way for as long as I remember.

kierandill; It would help if you let us know where you are. Latitude & longitude or at least town and/or zip code. :confused:

As example, here is the data from downtown Buffalo (actually City Hall);
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=42%2E88&longitude=%2D78%2E8770&magnetic_north=9&range=90&sort=distance&show_expired=False&show_construction=False&show_analog=False&show_low_power=True&action=Show+Stations

antennaweb is easier.

So is looking at 3rd grade reading material with all the pretty colors.

Tried it, it shows many stations I can't get, while refusing to show stations that I receive at 90+ percent. Contains no info that can't be obtained from the FCC website, plus the FCC website is easier to use.


http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html

Other than that it is great.

PS I have two Master's degrees, and I prefer Antennaweb so lay off the "third grade" ad hominem attacks.

So is looking at 3rd grade reading material with all the pretty colors.


Your clever. I'm sorry my opinion is different from yours.

kierandill; It would help if you let us know where you are. Latitude & longitude or at least town and/or zip code. :confused:

As example, here is the data from downtown Buffalo (actually City Hall);
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=42%2E88&longitude=%2D78%2E8770&magnetic_north=9&range=90&sort=distance&show_expired=False&show_construction=False&show_analog=False&show_low_power=True&action=Show+Stations

I live in Lafayette, IN and I plug in my Lat/Lon and 100 mile radius. I get plenty of stations in the search results, many of which are further than Indy, but none of the major networks in Indy. PBS is the only significant Indy station that shows up. Yet I can receive all the major networks from Indy on my current OTA setup.

If you check the expired records item it will include all your stations.

It seems the FCC database is awaiting being updated from the hundreds of permits that expired in early October. Since this site pulls it's data directly from the FCC database, it is as wrong as the FCC database is.

Prefer the map (all on 1 page) in antennaweb listing the direction of all available channels with corrected compass direction.

If you want to broaden the search add heigth.

Ran and printed this map yesterday and realized I was off with antenna direction with several towers. used this as a tool to program the rotor correctly.

There is confusion out there concerning compass direct. It is good to have corrected bearings (magnetic north vs true north). My deviation is 13 degrees and that is alot in the general scheem of things.

It does help to know how to use a compass though.

A: 34, 66
B: 7, 7.1, 16, 16.1, 50, 56, 56
C: 18, 23.1
D: 11, 20, 41, 53, 59
E: 2, 2.1, 49
F: 20.1, 27
G: 29
H: 15
I: 9, 9.1
J: 3, 3.1, 5, 12, 12.1, 24, 24.1, 26, 34, 34.1, 40, 40.1, 46, 46.1, 47.1
K: 11, 14, 19.1, 43, 44.1, 51, 68
L: 7, 16
M: 18, 18.1, 20, 36, 55
N: 39, 48
O: 20, 60
P: 26
Q: 8, 8.1, 10, 10.1, 13, 13.1, 15, 21, 21.1, 31, 31.1, 38, 40, 42

I live in zip code 14113. I have a roof mount and a db6 cable (from an unsuccessfult hughesnet attempt). I've checked the attennaweb.org site and the 2150.com site and it APPEARS I can get all my locals OTA. I currently only have a 10 dollar set of rabbit ears that will pull in abc, nbc, cbs but I want to get my fox affilate (ch 29) and a few others.

Would a DB4 or a CM 42 something be my best option? I don't think I need (or want) a rotor.

Thanks,
Rich

Direct TV HD10-250
3 LNB dish
Sony 42" LCD WEGA
rabbit ears from AJ Wright

Prefer the map (all on 1 page) in antennaweb listing the direction of all available channels with corrected compass direction.

If you want to broaden the search add heigth.

Ran and printed this map yesterday and realized I was off with antenna direction with several towers. used this as a tool to program the rotor correctly.

There is confusion out there concerning compass direct. It is good to have corrected bearings (magnetic north vs true north). My deviation is 13 degrees and that is alot in the general scheem of things.

It does help to know how to use a compass though.

A: 34, 66
B: 7, 7.1, 16, 16.1, 50, 56, 56
C: 18, 23.1
D: 11, 20, 41, 53, 59
E: 2, 2.1, 49
F: 20.1, 27
G: 29
H: 15
I: 9, 9.1
J: 3, 3.1, 5, 12, 12.1, 24, 24.1, 26, 34, 34.1, 40, 40.1, 46, 46.1, 47.1
K: 11, 14, 19.1, 43, 44.1, 51, 68
L: 7, 16
M: 18, 18.1, 20, 36, 55
N: 39, 48
O: 20, 60
P: 26
Q: 8, 8.1, 10, 10.1, 13, 13.1, 15, 21, 21.1, 31, 31.1, 38, 40, 42

Hey Ricky-Roo:hithere:

So antennaweb.org adjusts for magnetic declination? For me it says to shoot at 20 deg. compass orientation. But, my delcination is -14deg. So where should I be shooting? 6 deg.???

first off you need to enter your address and find the address on the map that pops up. then the listing of channels comes up. you then click on the tab to display the street level map, compass, and direction of stations. if the map still is not right you need to get your bearings again by pointing the cursor to the correct spot.

The map at antenna web shows the distribution of stations around your address. When installing an antenna, you should point your antenna or align your antenna's rotor system to point in the direction of the stations of interest.

The compass arrow in the lower left can help match the orientations on the "Stations" page to the map: the compass arrow shows the direction of magnetic North.

I print the map sometimes, match the bearings to the street, place the map under the antenna and aim in that direction. gets you in the ball park.

DEF are the utica station east

the syracuse stations are south O-I

and the B station is the ch 56 I always talk about with the jointenna

I added height to get more stations in the map you posted

The direction in which a compass needle points is known as magnetic north. In general, this is not exactly the direction of the North Magnetic Pole (or of any other consistent location). Instead, the compass aligns itself to the local geomagnetic field, which varies in a complex manner over the Earth's surface, as well as over time.

The angular difference between magnetic north and true north (defined in reference to the Geographic North Pole), at any particular location on the Earth's surface, is called the magnetic declination. Most map coordinate systems are based on true north, and magnetic declination is often shown on map legends so that the direction of true north can be determined from north as indicated by a compass.

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/geology/leveson/core/linksa/magnetic.html

http://www.learn-orienteering.org/old/lesson3.html

Hey Ricky-Roo:hithere:

So antennaweb.org adjusts for magnetic declination? For me it says to shoot at 20 deg. compass orientation. But, my delcination is -14deg. So where should I be shooting? 6 deg.???

It depends on how you determine north. If you use a compass, the Antennaweb direction is correct in reference to north on the compass. If you use a topo map to reference a landmark or walk the line with a GPS; use 6 degrees.

Why is antenna web brought up in this thread??

Since posts can't be edited, the issues of 2150 that I had in bold print have been addressed so disregard that in the first post.

NJRich; I perfer the CM 4228. Antennas from Antennas Direct are way overpriced (2x) for a very slight advantage. Second, I wouldn't even think of NOT installing a rotor especially where you live since you should have a choice of not just the Buffalo market, but the Rochester market as well.

The quick search I did is here;
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=42%2E677631&longitude=%2D78%2E337958&magnetic_north=%2D9&range=90&sort=distance&show_expired=True&show_construction=True&show_analog=True&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

Grand Island is 38 miles away and Rochester is 50. Corning and Toronto are probably a long shot though.

Why is antenna web brought up in this thread??
Because you put it in your subject/title.

I never got any stations to show

About October 2006 nearly all the stations disappeared from 2150 because many stations' licenses were up for renewal and the FCC database had not been updated to show their new license status. Be sure to check the include expired records checkbox.

O.K. I'm gonna jump in here. My zip is 40402. I've tried the fcc search, antennaweb, TitanTV, and every other site to find what I might recieve. Im basically in the Lexington KY. market. There's not been one site even close to being accurate. They list stations I could'nt recieve if my antenna was on an actual TV station tower. They also ommit many stations I can recieve. Even the FCC search ommited most Lexington stations. Why would they list one Lexington station and ommit the rest? Go ahead try my zip and you'll find the same results. I went to TVRADIOWORLD and tried to find stations that were within a 60 to 70 mile radius. I found all my stations there. I live in the mountains and I knew I needed the best. I went with Tigerbangs prescription, Channelmaster 4228, Wade-Delhi VIP 306, And Channelmaster Titan 7777. I even went one better. I found a Channelmaster UHF Parascope 4251 And 20" tower for 30 bucks. I see these arround my county all the time. I just pulled into a driveway and asked is it for sale. I'm kicking butt now, Thanks to the TIGER. OL'PEDRO

Where did you find a Parascope 4251, Pedro? Wowee! Know of any other ones around?

put me on the list also.

Where did you find a Parascope 4251, Pedro? Wowee! Know of any other ones around?... Description
Discontinued UHF Parascope Antenna - New.
Last new one in stock anywhere as far as is known.
The way the story goes: After a big storm, a manager at Channel Master asked to bring the 4251 assemblyline back into production and was told that the 4251 equipment had been sold for scrap!? USAV then bought all remaining 4251 inventory from all known outlets, and this is the very last new one in the box
http://www.ultrasatellite.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=4251
http://www.ultrasatellite.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=4251

Hey Tiger, hows it going? I've been visiting HiDef forum almost 2 years. Naturally I love it. I've learned a great deal from this site and you. I read the forums everyday. I live in Jackson County KY. My zip is 40402. I actually live near London KY. I would guess I'm about 60 miles from Lexington and about 75 from Knoxville. Its always been hard to recieve over the air without a good antenna and preamp. I see Parascopes all the time here in Jackson and Laurel counties. Quite a few people purchased these back in the 90s. I really did just pull in a driveway and ask the home owner to sell me their antenna. Can you believe the antenna and tower for 30 bucks. I've spotted another one about 15 minutes from my house. I'm gonna stop and try to buy this one too. Having one is awesome but, can you amagine having 2?

Referring back to my OP, disregard the bold print. That issue was resolved.
There still is the problem of the site trying to interpret the FCC's database, which in itself, is a lost cause.

You can also use this site for latitude and longitude coordinates;
http://geocoder.ibegin.com/

[Please note, the city stated for the licenesse is rarely NOT where the xmitter is actually located. Sometimes being 30 miles away. This is incorrect grammar.

I prefer TVfool since it provides not only current data, but also post-transition.

One word is wrong. "Sometimes" should be "Some". One other word could be changed; "stated" could be "listed". Since this site doesn't allow editing long after a post, I can't change it.

TVFool's data is ok, the way it is presented is not. The charts are way too small, the print is close to be unreadable, the collums and rows are too close together, there is "too much info" andwhich includes pure speculation, just like Antennaweb. Give me just the facts, I'll take it from there.
Yes, 2150 does not show post Feb. 17th revert backs, but that hopefully will change in 6 weeks. Also, the owner doesn't update it enough. He only devised it for himself, I'm very grateful it is still there and assessible.

Nope. There's only word that needs to be deleted:

"Please note, the city stated for the licensee is rarely [---] where the xmitter is actually located." Delete the "not" from the sentence.

It may hav not been ingramerated correctly, but it was communicateable.;)

rbinck; Ok since you asked You have a PM.

What do you want it to say? I'll copy and paste.

Those three single word corrections.

TVFool's data is ok, the way it is presented is not. The charts are way too small, the print is close to be unreadable, the collums and rows are too close together, there is "too much info" andwhich includes pure speculation, just like Antennaweb.

These are all valid points (which I agree with) except for the "speculation" part.

In as much as it's possible to accurately describe the flight path of a cannon ball with Newtonian physics, I think it's perfectly sensible to estimate TV signal strength using Longley-Rice propagation models. It's quite a bit more scientific than implied by the word "speculation", and I, for one, have been quite impressed with the overall accuracy of the predictions.

Cheers,

I, for one, have been quite impressed with the overall accuracy of the predictions.Well, I haven't. Looking at the results in this area, those figures are inconsistant. If "speculation" isn't the best term to use, then change it to 'guestamate'.

Acceptability is a good measure. Tvfool is well utilized on this forum and over on the avsforum. I rarely see someone use "better than antennaweb" or at least report that they've used it. Tvfool was spot on for my location and so was antennaweb! I was able to use both of those tools very quickly. Better than antennaweb was too cumbersome IMO.

Better than antennaweb was too cumbersome IMO.I agree it needs to be reworked, but it isn't my site or I would of done so long ago. After you enter your lat. and long. and adjust for mag. declination (which is good thing to know in the first place), it's far easier to read and shows more without squinting my eyes because station numbers are stacked one over the other continusely.

Those three single word corrections.Let me be clear. If you rework the post to say what you want to say and send it to me in a PM I will replace the entire post. I will not make those convoluted instructions you requested in your PM. You talked about how it shouldn't take me very much time to make the changes and I would say that that holds true for you as well. Make the changes and send them to me and I'll cut and paste the entire post as a replacement.

I probably should not have offered in the first place, but since I thought the thread has merit is why I extended the offer.

Step 4; To be really accurate you need to find the magnetic declination of you location. A zip code should is sufficient. The results now include a map with a compass showing magnetic north and true north;

Step 5; Click on "Compute Declination" and do a C&P to the space provided at the 2150 site (default is -13.25) and click on "Show Stations".



Thanks for the write up but which value do you c&p from the NOAA site? The declination as listed, is in degrees and minutes. How do you c&p without first converting that to decimal?

Enter your Zip Code in the 1st box, click 'Compute Declination', the result is in the 3rd box along with any change per year and the map below.

Well. It is NOT all I need to know about my local OTA stations. I bought a CM4221 2 years ago for HDTV. I later learned from TVFOOL that my new antenna will be inadequate after Feb 17.
Bob 61231

This is going to be good.

Ok, exactly what did you find out using TV Fool that told you your antenna won't work?? :confused:
Have you erected the antenna yet?
Have you done a site survey for your hot spot?
Have you taken meter readings with your SLM to confirm the speculation that was shown on those charts?

Post back.

This is going to be good.

Ok, exactly what did you find out using TV Fool that told you your antenna won't work?? :confused:

Have you erected the antenna yet?
Have you done a site survey for your hot spot?
Have you taken meter readings with your SLM to confirm the speculation that was shown on those charts?

Post back.

1. It has been up for 2 years.
2. Yes I have.
3. I do not have a meter.

Maybe I missed something. Where on 2150 dot com does it let me know that rf 58 is expiring and WHBF will broadcast on rf4?
TVFOOL shows me precisely that on the post-transition page.

Maybe I missed something. Where on 2150 dot com does it let me know that rf 58 is expiring and WHBF will broadcast on rf4?
TVFOOL shows me precisely that on the post-transition page. As stated, it doesn't. That information is stated elsewhere other than TVFool.
Again, the site doesn't use the 'Crstal Ball' approach, stating what is suppose to happen. BTW, those 'reverts' have changed with many markets.

OK. I will include my TV FOOL reports.
Apparently the information IS stated on TVFOOL.
Note: WHBF 4.1.
I conclude that 2150 dot com does not give all that I need to know.

I conclude that 2150 dot com does not give all that I need to know.Knowing ERP & HAAT is far more valuable to anyone that knows what they mean and how to use the data then best guesses & predictions.
As far as post transistion, in a few weeks (hopefully) it will be a non issue.

Knowing ERP & HAAT is far more valuable to anyone that knows what they mean and how to use the data then best guesses & predictions.
As far as post transistion, in a few weeks (hopefully) it will be a non issue.

Knowing ERP and HAAT can be valuable but one will not know the exact signal strength at a given location unless one measures directly. All other approaches are merely "best guesses & predictions".

Knowing ERP and HAAT can be valuable but one will not know the exact signal strength at a given location unless one measures directly.I believe I already said that. All other approaches are merely "best guesses & predictions". And have been saying that many times also!

So, I take it you are a test only kinda guy? No problem with that but tvfool can be very helpful for getting an idea of what one is up against. Worked very well for me! :) It's also a great tool for novices. Gives a good first look at their situation. Yeah, it's a prediction but it works well for most situations. Hat tip to Andy Lee!

Both sites need to be reworked.

2150 needs some column reformatting. There is too much space devoted under the Licensee column and too little under the Station column.
And the two long standing issues, no post transistion data and it's not updated on a regular basis. BUT, as I stated, I'm grateful that it is there and to the owner.

As far as TVFool, the charts are way, way too small. For the pie chart, in markets where ther are numerous stations in the same direction, the channel numbers are on top of one another. It's impossible to read anything like this. The spreadsheet has way too many columns with needless data that can only confuse. Too much info.
It's great that the owner has taken the time to compose this nad I will be the first to admit I'm not able to do so, but it really doesn't help if you can't read what you are looking at.

I print out 2150 data and can read it very easily, not so for TVFool.

BTW, not I'm not a 'test only' kind of guy. ;)

Geez, I can read it and I'm 54 with tri focals! ;) I agree though, readability could be improved.

Best,

Rick

Knowing ERP & HAAT is far more valuable to anyone that knows what they mean and how to use the data then best guesses & predictions.
As far as post transistion, in a few weeks (hopefully) it will be a non issue.
Yes but I get that from the fcc inquiry site as well as the intended future assignments erp and Haat....tvfool offers decent info and call signs I might not have otherwise looked up, then I just investigate each one with the fcc site to get the rest of the info I need......2150 shows too many results for me lisiting stations that there is no way because of topography would ever make it down here except for tropo skip.....and for some reason unknown to me it missed a couple that I watch everyday examples include wkrn, wbbj, wsmv....all of wich show up on tvfool.....oh and I print my tvfool stuff out just fine....I just save the file first then print from windows picture viewer