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why don't I get PBS?

muaddib06
09-18-2006, 09:17 AM
I finally bought a samsung HD receiver, installed it friday and was blown away by it....best money I ever spent.
I get several channels....9 in all, all the normal ones, plus a couple I didn't know would be there....nice suprise. But....I received channel 13 (PBS) pperfectly over the air, with normal analog receiver, but I get (No signal) for 13 with the new box....any ideas?...I was looking forward to "Nova" and the nature shows...
thanks,
Jim

muaddib06
09-18-2006, 09:19 AM
Oh. Yea...My zip is 16066.....roof antenna...good reception.

Bigloww
09-18-2006, 10:26 AM
Glad to hear you are up and running and receiving HD OTA. I assume you are recieving analog and digital channels now. Channel 2 CBS will be analog 2.1 will be digital CBS, 53 Fox/53.1 Fox digital, 11 NBC/11.1 NBC digital ect...
It doen not appear PBS broadcasts in digital in your area, only analog (like you said on channel 13:( ). That is a bumber because allot of very cool stuff (like Nova) is awesome in HD. Not sure why you don't get that one in analog, but you do get the others. Try another analog/digital scan and see. It is at 165 deg and is close to the others. Please list the 9 analog and digital channels you do get..

uhf KDKA-DT 2.1 CBS PITTSBURGH PA 170 15.2 25
uhf WPGH 53 FOX PITTSBURGH PA 167 15.3 53
uhf WPGH-DT 53.1 FOX PITTSBURGH PA 167 15.3 43
uhf WPMY-DT 42.1 MNT PITTSBURGH PA 167 15.3 42
vhf WPXI 11 NBC PITTSBURGH PA 170 17.4 11
vhf KDKA 2 CBS PITTSBURGH PA 170 15.2 2
uhf WPXI-DT 11.1 NBC PITTSBURGH PA 170 17.4 48
vhf WQED 13 PBS PITTSBURGH PA 165 19.3 13
uhf WQEX 16 HSN PITTSBURGH PA 165 19.3 16

muaddib06
09-18-2006, 10:33 AM
Thanks, that's a bummer....don't know the exact channel line-up right now...(at work)...I'll get some more detailed info tonight ...So I should still get 13 analog?...Is there something I need to do to get the receiver to capture analog signals?....think it already is....I get two channel 53's two channel 11's ,...(I forget what else).

Bigloww
09-18-2006, 11:00 AM
Sorry, it does appear (after I did another scan) that you also get PBS 13.1 in Digital/HD..:yippee: So you should get PBS in analog and wounderful HD as well. There is allot of PBS shows in HD so you will love it. I rarely watched it b4 HD, but now I watch it all the time. My wife thinks I am on drugs.

I don't know your tuner exactly but it should. It appears you are already receiving both analog and digital ("I get two channel 53's two channel 11''). Like my last post stated 53 would be analog and 53.1 would be the digita/HD broadcast. So it does appear you scanned and are receiving both analog and digital.

Not sure why you received PBS 13 before and not now. Your tuner should not be worse than you NTSC RF TV connection (I would think). It is only a couple degrees off from the stations you are receiving now. You can try a rescan of analog only, and then digital to see. If a rescan of analog and digital does not come up with it, you may want to verify your antenna is pointed correctly.

muaddib06
09-18-2006, 11:33 AM
That's good to hear....I'll try it again tonight then....it's just odd that the others came in at such strong signals...and 13 pbs....is like it doesn't exist or something.

Diogenes
09-18-2006, 02:28 PM
That's good to hear....I'll try it again tonight then....it's just odd that the others came in at such strong signals...and 13 pbs....is like it doesn't exist or something.


I have noticed our PBS seems to go off the air at odd times, perhaps it was off the air when you scanned. Also WQED broadcasts on ch 38.

muaddib06
09-18-2006, 02:42 PM
Thanks I'll check 38 tonight.

muaddib06
09-20-2006, 01:01 PM
I'm using a Samsung SIR T-451. I tried scanning again and channel 40 got captured (religious channel) wooop-dee-dooo...."No offense intended".
Sure wish I could find PBS....I wanna see NOVA in HD...that'd be sweet I bet.
:(

muaddib06
09-21-2006, 02:27 PM
I am sooo bummed over this....don't get me wrong...the other channels look great, but I'm primarily a PBS watcher.
The mindles tripe they pass off as television shows these days, is very difficult to look at even in High Def. ...except for "24"....and "the simpsons"....ummmm....family guy.....that's about it.
But that only covers sunday night and 24 doesn't start till January.
What does a person watch if he's seen one too many "cop/detective" shows and absolutely loathes the whole concept of reality tv?
...that's correct - PBS.......DOHHH!

Bigloww
09-21-2006, 06:13 PM
Did you check your antenna's alignment to 165 degrees. You never stated what channels you do get (other than FOX it appears). Can you get 13 in analog yet?

According to antennaweb PBS 13 and PBS WQED-DT is 13.1 not 38-.
WQED-DT 13.1 PBS PITTSBURGH PA 165° 19.3 38
I can see the confusion because the QED web says "How do I receive your digital signal? Tune your digital receiver to channel38 to receive WQED-DT high definition programming." Even though it says WQED-DT 13.1 rite above it..:rolleyes: It must be 13.1 and 38 is the freq I think.
http://www.wqed.org/tv/sched/index.shtml?display_date=2006-09-21&display_format=fullday&display_feed=12425&feeds=461,462,12425&station=WQED&zipcode=15213-2918&transport=&provider=&supersite=stations

There is another channel that broadcast from the same spot. Do you receive this 1 (not that you want to).
WQEX-DT 16.1 HSN PITTSBURGH PA 165° 19.3 26
It also says this 1 but live date is TBD, so it may not be live yet.
WPCW-DT 49.1 CW JEANNETTE PA TBD 165° 19.3 49
Hopefully another Pittsburgian can chime in....

If you are, something is wrong with QED. If not, try to verify 165 deg with a compass. You still should be able to grab 167 and 170 deg channels.

Do you know the model of your antenna on the roof? If so, please list it and the condition.

BrianO
09-21-2006, 11:23 PM
According to antennaweb PBS 13 and PBS WQED-DT is 13.1 not 38-.
WQED-DT 13.1 PBS PITTSBURGH PA 165 19.3 38
I can see the confusion because the QED web says "How do I receive your digital signal? Tune your digital receiver to channel38 to receive WQED-DT high definition programming." Even though it says WQED-DT 13.1 rite above it..:rolleyes: It must be 13.1 and 38 is the freq I think.


WQED only broadcasts its analogue programming on channel 13 (VHF). Its digital programming is broadcast on channel 38 (UHF) and can be accessed by tuning directly to channel 38.x, so the information given on the WQED web site is correct (but not complete).

Channels 13.1, 13.2, etc. are virtual channels, not real ones. They can only be tuned in after you have run your tuner's channel set-up routine and the links between the virtual channels and their actual broadcast frequencies have been found by the tuner in the PSIP information that is contained in the digital streams it detects on channel 38 and the tuner has stored the links in its memory. Afterwards, when you tune in 13.1 you are actually looking at a sub-channel of UHF channel 38. OTOH when you tune to channel 13 (or 13.0) which is analogue, you are actually viewing VHF channel 13.

In analogue broadcasting the frequencies used by each channel number are the same everywhere in North America. In digital broadcasting the frequencies used by stations identified by the same channel number vary from one broadcast area to the next.

muaddib06
09-22-2006, 10:47 AM
Thank you both. I will try your suggestions this weekend.
And biglow...I will gather the information you asked for as well.

muaddib06
09-25-2006, 10:40 AM
Well, I had a crazy weekend and didn't get a chance to look up the info I promised to get, But...Someone from PBS replied to an email I sent detailing this problem. He asked if I was receiving WQEX channel 16, because it's broadcast from the same spot. I answered "Yes and the signal is very strong". He then answered that it isn't that my antenna needs to be adjusted and he's wondering if there's something wrong on their end. No real solutions from him, but he's looking into it. Have you guys spoke to any Pittsburgers who have been able to receive PBS-HD OTA.
I don't see wqed analog or digital. Have scanned a few times.
ONE THING that may be of interest:
When it's scanning, it hesitates on 38 for much longer than the other "no signals" then finally reads "no signal".
Not sure if this is any help...
Jim

muaddib06
09-25-2006, 10:48 AM
Sorry....forgot to answer a question...
The channels I receive right now are; 2,4,two 11's,16,two 22's,40 and two 53's

Bigloww
09-25-2006, 11:07 AM
Yeah, thats the reason I asked if you recieved 16.1 HSN-D in my last post. It does broadcast from the same place so that would answer the alignment issue. Strange. Based off your receiver "pausing" on 38, it seems like it is trying to grab a signal but can't. But what is also very odd is that your tuner is not able to grab analog PBS (channel 13), but you did before the tuner was installed. I assume if you unplug the antenna feed from the tunner and plug it into you antenna connection, you recieve 13 fine like you did b4.?.. Did WQED confirm if the station broadcast on 38 or 13.1. I don't have any experience with "virtual channels" here in Chicago. All digital channels here are -1 or -2 of the anolog channels like ABC 7 ABC-D 7-1, 7-2 to my knowledge. Did the service manual say anything in the troubleshooting area? If no one local can help you give Samsung a call. They may bave some ideas.

muaddib06
09-25-2006, 11:40 AM
Thanks, I was thinking a call to Samsung might be my next step.
yea...PBS always came in very well, before the samsung....even if the antenna was up to a 1/4 turn off axis.
COuld you explain UHF and VHF to me a lil...and how it pertains to the new digital/ HD world? I just remember in the old days you needed a round antenna for UHF and a set of rabbit ears for VHF...

Is there anything that needs done to assure I'm receiving both?

texasbrit
09-25-2006, 11:46 AM
Bigloww - those channels you list (7.1. etc) ARE "virtual" channel numbers. ABC-7 actually transmits its digital signal on a UHF channel - channel 52. Channels 7.1, 7.2 etc are multicast subchannels, usually 7.1 is the main subchannel (where HD is transmitted, if it's available) and 7.2 and so on are usually carrying things like the weather radar, or a news channel.

Bigloww
09-25-2006, 12:07 PM
Roger that. Thanks for clearing up that term for me. If you mean that 7.1 true freq/channel is 52 and 7.1 is the "virtual channel", I undestand. The tunner just simplfies it for you. He should be able to hit 38 or 13.1 on his remote to get to it. I just don't understand why he can't get 38 or the virtual channel 13.1 or whatever it is. even though he can get 16.1 great. He can't even get 13 analog, which he got b4.:confused: It appears it tries to get 38, but can't.

muaddib06
09-27-2006, 11:56 AM
Hi guys,...bTW...thanks for using so much energy in trying to help me solve this...
Last night I spun the antenna around, incrementally stopping to try "rescanning", with no good result. Couldn't find PBS at any of the positions.
A man named Paul Buyers at WQED has been trying to help as well. Here is his response to the attempts to find PBS I made last night:

Jim,

I don't think the problem is with your antenna. WQEX-DT is transmitting with a power of about 50 kW, while WQED-DT is transmitting a much stronger signal with a power of about 400 kW. If I would suggest anything to change, it would be the Samsung receiver. As I mentioned in my last e-mail, I set up a Samsung 451 and was able to receive all local stations (including WQED) except KDKA. If you could get your hands on a receiver from a different manufacturer you might have better luck receiving our signal.

m_vanmeter
09-27-2006, 12:16 PM
50 kilowatts ! And I thought WQED was a "real" PBS station.....changing receivers won't help much if the broadcaster will not put out a decent signal. What a bunch of cheap-skates !

muaddib06
09-27-2006, 12:18 PM
Are there any parts of a HD receiver that could be defective in this manner?

muaddib06
09-27-2006, 01:22 PM
WQEX puts out 50 kW....WQED puts out 400kW.

muaddib06
09-27-2006, 01:24 PM
the wierd part is both signals originate from the same place.
one's broadcast at 50kW, the other at 400kW. I recieve the weaker of the two perfectly, but my samsung won't find the stronger one, while scanning (at any antenna position)
Bizarre....and a bummer...missin alot of good stuff. ;(

Rick0725
09-27-2006, 05:17 PM
* yellow - uhf WPGH-DT 53.1 FOX PITTSBURGH PA 167 15.3 43
* yellow - uhf KDKA-DT 2.1 CBS PITTSBURGH PA 170 15.2 25
* yellow - uhf WPMY-DT 42.1 MNT PITTSBURGH PA 167 15.3 42
* red - uhf WPXI-DT 11.1 NBC PITTSBURGH PA 170 17.4 48
* blue - uhf WQEX-DT 16.1 HSN PITTSBURGH PA 165 19.3 26
* blue - uhf WQED-DT 13.1 PBS PITTSBURGH PA 165 19.3 38
* blue - uhf WPCW-DT 49.1 CW JEANNETTE PA TBD 165 19.3 49
* violet - uhf WTAE-DT 4.1 ABC PITTSBURGH PA 159 33.3 51

the way the results are coming out on antennaweb gives me a hint of possibe signal blockage by your local geography to consider.

Typically a 3 mile change will not bring you from yellow to blue if you had direct line of sight to the towers.

muaddib06
09-28-2006, 08:01 AM
That could be, I suppose Rick, but it doesn't explain why channel 16, which is broadcast from the same building, on a weaker signal, comes in perfectly. (Unless WQED has some type of (I don't know)....signal relay point, located in such a way as to provide a different line of site than that of WQEX....? Even though they originate from the same location.....Do you think this is possible?

Bigloww
09-28-2006, 08:56 AM
A few questions I don't think you answered yet was concerning channel 13 analog. You don't get that either still? And you did receive it just fine when it was connected to your TV NTSC directly or did I misunderstand? Can you connect it and get it now? If so, that makes things even mor confusing. If at all possible, see if you can grab another digital tuner from a local retailer like RS if they still arry them. It would be a quick way to rule out our tuner as the problem. You can always return it if the same problem continues. I doubt it is the tuner, but you never know. Has anyone else near your area given you any ideas (other than WQED). It is good to hear that they are very responsive..

Rick0725
09-28-2006, 09:19 AM
That could be, I suppose Rick, but it doesn't explain why channel 16, which is broadcast from the same building, on a weaker signal, comes in perfectly. (Unless WQED has some type of (I don't know)....signal relay point, located in such a way as to provide a different line of site than that of WQEX....? Even though they originate from the same location.....Do you think this is possible?

analog signal is a different type of signal and tends to carry farther...digital is bit information based and if there are errors caused by outside factors (blockage, multipath) the tuner will not process the signal or have a hard time doing so.

signal strength on a hd tuner meter really is not a measurement of actual signal strength of the station but of different stuff...nebulous stuff that even a tech type has difficulty trying to explain.

Bigloww
09-28-2006, 09:23 AM
I think he meant 16.1 which is digital. Wow HSN in HD, what waste.

muaddib06
09-28-2006, 09:24 AM
Yes, I recieved 13 analog very well, up until I changed to the HD receiver. Before installing new receiver, I made sure the antenna was adjusted the best it could be. Which means WQED came in very well in analog, then after installing the box, it was the only one that wouldn't "capture"...
Not sure I know which retailer is "RS". There's a circuit City who carries the box though. I could pick one up and return it after trying it, I guess. don' like doing that, but...not much choice.
Yea, I was suprised at how anxious to help WQED was.

muaddib06
09-28-2006, 09:26 AM
Yea,...16 HSN....digital, but not HD that I've seen....but 40...the evangelist channel, (hope not to offend anyone)...that shows up in HD sometimes if I remember right....talk about waste... :)

Bigloww
09-28-2006, 09:29 AM
RS is Radio Shack. CC would do just as well if they still carry them in store. They have a very good return policy. I not huge on it either, but since you are spinning your wheels, it may be worth the BS just to rule it out.. Seeing you don't get 13 analog with this tuner and did b4, it would be worth a shot IMO..

Rick0725
09-28-2006, 09:29 AM
what are you using for an antenna and are you using an preamp.

muaddib06
09-28-2006, 09:52 AM
Not sure which antenna, but if I remember right Home depot had 3 of them and mine was the second biggest. No preamp.

Isn't it befuddling though...the fact that the WQED Tech told me that WQEX16 and WQED13 both broadcat from the exact same location and WQEX16 has a weaker signal, but I get it and not WQED?.....To me that is really wierd.

Rick0725
09-28-2006, 10:02 AM
maybe you need a better performing antenna

muaddib06
09-28-2006, 10:50 AM
The PBS guy believed it couldn't be the antenna, if I'm receiving WQEX with a strong signal....

Rick0725
09-28-2006, 11:03 AM
then have the pbs guy come to your home to figure it out. only reason why I say that is maybe there is something wrong with the transmitting and not your set up.

muaddib06
09-28-2006, 11:07 AM
Sounds like you're getting a sense of how aggravating this problem is to me...starting to rub off on you. no prob.

I'm gonna try a new box and if it doesn't work, I'll give up on it.
Thanks for all the good advice gentlemen.

Rick0725
09-28-2006, 11:26 AM
only reason why I mentioned that is I had a problem with a fox channel recently and called the station engineer. He mentioned that everything look fine on the remote instrumentation at the station.

Come to find out, during the routine sunday evening maintenance there was a problem with the transmission line at the transmitter that needed to be repaired.

muaddib06
09-28-2006, 12:07 PM
oH...oK....that's a good idea...maybe I can talk him into stopping to look.

worth a try.

muaddib06
10-09-2006, 10:37 AM
Hey guys.
I just found channel 13.
I feel kinda silly. and I appreciate all your efforts to help figure it out.

I tuned in 38, then I found the "check signal strength" option in menu.
it was flickering 1 or two bars, so I went out and started turning the antenna, (watching thru the window and I got 4 bars and a picture.
that adjustment gains PBS, but loses (2) 22's and 53 fox , but I guess I'll have to turn the antenna, frequently depending on what I want to watch.....kindof a bummer, but at least I know I can get PBS now. Thanks,
Jim

Bigloww
10-09-2006, 05:01 PM
Glad o hear that you finaly got it. You can get a rotor with remote or a better directional antenna to fix that issue. Enjoy your PBS,,, finaly:D ..

muaddib06
10-26-2006, 02:44 PM
Just thought I'd drop a line and let you guys know, I've been enjoying PBS in HD ...in fact I'm kind of addicted to it now.
Some of those shows like the one about Alaska's Crater Lake .....WOW!....all I can say.
Now it's hard to watch DVD's...they don't look so good anymore...unfortunate side-effect I guess.
:)

Bigloww
10-26-2006, 02:50 PM
Good to hear. Sounds like you are a perfect candidate for HD-DVD. I can't wait to grab my addon for my 360 in a few weeks...:)

rbinck
10-26-2006, 04:23 PM
Just thought I'd drop a line and let you guys know, I've been enjoying PBS in HD ...in fact I'm kind of addicted to it now.
Some of those shows like the one about Alaska's Crater Lake .....WOW!....all I can say.
Now it's hard to watch DVD's...they don't look so good anymore...unfortunate side-effect I guess.
:)
Alaska has a Crater Lake? I've been to Crater Lake in Oregon a couple of times, but was unaware there was one in Alaska.