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Sony Ships 4K Blu-ray Player - MSRP only $250

Kosty
04-24-2012, 01:17 PM
Sony Ships 4K Blu-ray Player

By Greg Tarr -- TWICE, 4/24/2012

San Diego - Sony revealed Tuesday that it is now selling its BDP-S790 4K-up-scaling Blu-ray Disc player via its online store, and it will hit brick-and-mortar stores May 6.

http://www.twice.com/photo/262/262853-Sony_s_BDP_S790_250_suggested_retail_offers_4K_up_ scaling_and_UltraViolet_playback_support_.jpg

Sony's BDP-S790 ($250 suggested retail) offers 4K up-scaling and UltraViolet playback support.

The new flagship Blu-ray player will carry a $250 suggested retail, and is expected to ship to Sony's online customers this week.

The player features a dual-core processor, 3D playback, built-in Wi-Fi connectivity, DLNA streaming, and access to Netflix, Vudu, Amazon Instant Video, Slacker, Pandora, Twitter and Facebook.

The model also provides access to the Sony Entertainment Network, with both music and video streaming services, and will support UltraViolet streaming services powered by Flixter and Vudu, latter of which is further supported by Walmart's newly launched UltraViolet-enabled in-store disc-to-digital service program.

The built-in 4K up-scaling will offer support for next-generation 4K high-definition display devices, including Sony's 4K video projectors. The capability is expected to become more pervasive in coming years.

Other features include IP content noise reduction, dual HDMI outputs, IR input, front USB input for music and video file playback, and a Media Remote app (iPhone/iPod Touch/Android BD remote control).

http://www.twice.com/article/483537-Sony_Ships_4K_Blu_ray_Player.php

Kosty
04-24-2012, 01:18 PM
The next generation 4K Blu-ray players with all the bells and whistles are showing up faster and at a lower price point than many expected.

leevitalone
04-24-2012, 01:40 PM
so, why 4k now, do I need it now?

Kosty
04-24-2012, 02:10 PM
so, why 4k now, do I need it now?

You don't, not with a 1080p or lessor display. :D

But if you are buying a high end Blu-ray 3D player in the near future, you might want to consider such a player with all the bells and whistles and a fast video processor with the future proofed option of it already having 4K capability. 4K displays will be on the market soon enough.

Plus if you win the lottery and want to buy a JVC or Sony 4K front projector for your new home theater you'd be all set. :lol:

HD Goofnut
04-24-2012, 02:18 PM
I guess to get an actual 4K player (not upconversion) there will have to be a medium to support 4K resolution. How big of a disc would that require? Lee posted those figures back several months ago, but I can't remember where.

Lee Stewart
04-24-2012, 02:24 PM
I guess to get an actual 4K player (not upconversion) there will have to be a medium to support 4K resolution. How big of a disc would that require? Lee posted those figures back several months ago, but I can't remember where.

Certain ten megapixel video requires truly higher bandwidth, but with advanced H264 encoding, a 10 megapixel 4K2K video can match in 50mbit/s, and 50mbit/s can be delivered over Fiberoptical Net connections and almost certainly that you would be ready to match a 4K2K stream on a Blu-ray disc which has a 48mbit/s bandwidth restrict. At that bitrate, a 2 hour 4K2K film could fit on about 43GB, so it can perfectly effectively fit on a dual-layer 50GB Blu-ray disc.

http://entertainmentprojector.info/search/4k2k-video-bandwidth/

I think (???) he is referring to H.264 High 10 Profile (Hi10P)

http://www.innocodec.com/H.html

Kosty
04-24-2012, 02:30 PM
I guess to get an actual 4K player (not upconversion) there will have to be a medium to support 4K resolution. How big of a disc would that require? Lee posted those figures back several months ago, but I can't remember where.

I've been told that current and tested future Blu-ray Discs can support 4K resolution.

Since Sony is doing this 4k player now its reasonable to assume they know something about it to actually support 4K Blu-ray Discs in the future as its Sony the leader in Blu-ray technology that is releasing this device.

I would not be surprised if it would be capable of playing actual 4K Blu-ray Discs in the future as they are the people that are actually developing the 4K Blu-ray Discs as they have stated at various trade shows for the past year. They do not have to promise it now.

HD Goofnut
04-24-2012, 02:33 PM
I've been told that current and tested future Blu-ray Discs can support 4K resolution.

Since Sony is doing this 4k player now its reasonable to assume they know something about it to actually support 4K Blu-ray Discs in the future as its Sony the leader in Blu-ray technology that is releasing this device.

I would not be surprised if it would be capable of playing actual 4K Blu-ray Discs in the future as they are the people that are actually developing the 4K Blu-ray Discs as they have stated at various trade shows for the past year. They do not have to promise it now.

Do you think this player could support a native 4K disc with a FW update? I suppose it's possible if same type of laser is used for these newer discs, right?

Lee Stewart
04-24-2012, 02:56 PM
Do you think this player could support a native 4K disc with a FW update? I suppose it's possible if same type of laser is used for these newer discs, right?

If the only difference between a 2K BD and a 4k BD is the video codec (H.264 vs H.265) then yes, all that would be needed is a FW upgrade as long as H.265 is backwards compatible to H.264

Kosty
04-24-2012, 07:02 PM
Do you think this player could support a native 4K disc with a FW update? I suppose it's possible if same type of laser is used for these newer discs, right?

If the only difference between a 2K BD and a 4k BD is the video codec (H.264 vs H.265) then yes, all that would be needed is a FW upgrade as long as H.265 is backwards compatible to H.264

That was the wink and a nod answer I and a lot of other people got at CES Jan 2012 and CEDIA Sep 2011 when discussing the issue. Sony is releasing this player and they are the ones working on 4k Blu-ray Discs.

Any future multilayer Blu-ray discs above 2 layers use the same laser and setup to read them, the player just needs to adjust a tiny difference to go between the multiple layers on the top of the disc.

If the hypothetical 4K Blu-ray Disc is just a physical dual layer Blu-ray disc in physical structure with a more modern codec squeezing more data on the disc then its just software and computing horsepower in the player to be able to read the new data structure.

The hard part of getting Blu-ray Disc production and players going at BD50 capabilities is already done. Incrementally improving beyond that should be easier, especially if its done like Lee Stewart is musing, just by a new codec getting more data on a dual layer disc.

bruceames
04-25-2012, 08:37 AM
Seems odd to ship out a player without discs to play in it or a display to watch it on. Also the price seems very low for a new format with 4x more resolution. It's like it's being rushed.

HD Goofnut
04-25-2012, 09:00 AM
Seems odd to ship out a player without discs to play in it or a display to watch it on. Also the price seems very low for a new format with 4x more resolution. It's like it's being rushed.

It's a "futureproofer" Bruce. It upconverts 1080p to 2160p for those that have bought one of those 4K projectors and then it also doubles as a media center and 3D player. I'd recommend it for sub $200 for anyone wanting to get into 3D or possibly 4K. It is reasonable to assume that it will be able to play 4K BDs in the future with a FW update as well.

bruceames
04-25-2012, 09:22 AM
It's a "futureproofer" Bruce. It upconverts 1080p to 2160p for those that have bought one of those 4K projectors and then it also doubles as a media center and 3D player. I'd recommend it for sub $200 for anyone wanting to get into 3D or possibly 4K. It is reasonable to assume that it will be able to play 4K BDs in the future with a FW update as well.

I don't know. I want 4K done right, not cheaply. This whole thing of trying to cram a 4k movie on a BD50 is like HD DVD trying to use DVDs as their media. The format needs more room.

GizmoDVD
04-25-2012, 09:24 AM
This makes no sense. No displays and no content. What the hell is the point?

mikemorel
04-25-2012, 09:30 AM
If the only difference between a 2K BD and a 4k BD is the video codec (H.264 vs H.265) then yes, all that would be needed is a FW upgrade as long as H.265 is backwards compatible to H.264There is no free lunch. The tradeoff with H.265 is that it provides 2x better video compression performance at the expense of significantly higher computational complexity, compared with H.264. The chip needs to have more processing power.

PSound
04-25-2012, 09:32 AM
I don't know. I want 4K done right, not cheaply. This whole thing of trying to cram a 4k movie on a BD50 is like HD DVD trying to use DVDs as their media. The format needs more room.

This is bad news for Sony investors.

The new goal is to NOT have products like this. Products with no strategy. Products with no market.


Releasing a bunch of stuff with poor strategy for cohesion and place in the market (features, price, etc) is a major issue for Sony. This release shows they have not righted themselves.

Lee Stewart
04-25-2012, 09:37 AM
There is no free lunch. The tradeoff with H.265 is that it provides 2x better video compression performance at the expense of significantly higher computational complexity, compared with H.264. The chip needs to have more processing power.

Which would be part of the new SoC that is in this new Sony BD player. They would need that to do upscaling of 1080P to 2160P

Along with one of the new 300 MHz HDMI TX chips.

bruceames
04-25-2012, 09:40 AM
This makes no sense. No displays and no content. What the hell is the point?

Just read elsewhere that this is not actually a 4k player but a Blu-ray player that can upscale to 4k.

I guess it would be useful now for those with 4k projectors. Don't those projectors have there own built-in upscaler?

Lee Stewart
04-25-2012, 09:40 AM
I don't know. I want 4K done right, not cheaply. This whole thing of trying to cram a 4k movie on a BD50 is like HD DVD trying to use DVDs as their media. The format needs more room.

You're dreaming. You really think Hollywood will give consumers 10bit or 12bit color depth AND 4K resolution?

All you are going to get is 4K resolution . . . at 8bit color depth . . . same color depth as SD and HD

Lee Stewart
04-25-2012, 09:44 AM
Just read elsewhere that this is not actually a 4k player but a Blu-ray player that can upscale to 4k.

I guess it would be useful now for those with 4k projectors. Don't those projectors have there own built-in upscaler?

Yes they do:

•"Reality Creation" 4K up-scaling to watch Blu-ray Disc content in 4K: The VPL-VW1000ES projector also features an exclusive Super Resolution 4K upscaler "RealityCreation" that dramatically enhances Full-HD content, allowing viewers to get the most from their existing Blu-ray Disc libraries at home

GizmoDVD
04-25-2012, 09:46 AM
Just read elsewhere that this is not actually a 4k player but a Blu-ray player that can upscale to 4k.

I guess it would be useful now for those with 4k projectors. Don't those projectors have there own built-in upscaler?

So a limited amount of people may have the chance to upscale to 4k.

Yeah.... Who is spending $250 on this?

HD Goofnut
04-25-2012, 11:59 AM
So a limited amount of people may have the chance to upscale to 4k.

Yeah.... Who is spending $250 on this?

$250 is the MSRP so it will probably be around $200 at Wal-Mart. It's worth $200 just for everything else it does.

mikemorel
04-25-2012, 12:01 PM
Which would be part of the new SoC that is in this new Sony BD player. They would need that to do upscaling of 1080P to 2160PUpscaling is easy. Decoding highly compressed 4K H.265 is harder.

From a year ago: Onkyo’s TX-NR809 Receiver Needlessly Upscales 1080p to 4K for $1,099 (http://gizmodo.com/5801632/onkyos-tx+nr809-receiver-needlessly-upscales-1080p-to-4k-for-1099)

For an analogy, think back to 2005 and upscaling DVD players vs. true H.264 decoding.

bruceames
04-25-2012, 12:04 PM
You're dreaming. You really think Hollywood will give consumers 10bit or 12bit color depth AND 4K resolution?

All you are going to get is 4K resolution . . . at 8bit color depth . . . same color depth as SD and HD

I ask at least they they not compress the video 4 times over what they do now, just to squeeze it on a BD50. Capacity was increased 4-5 times from 480p to 1080p. It should be increased by at least that much from 1080p to 4k.

That's what I meant by doing it right. The color bit improvement would be great, but that's up to the studios.

Lee Stewart
04-25-2012, 12:17 PM
I ask at least they they not compress the video 4 times over what they do now, just to squeeze it on a BD50. Capacity was increased 4-5 times from 480p to 1080p. It should be increased by at least that much from 1080p to 4k.

That's what I meant by doing it right. The color bit improvement would be great, but that's up to the studios.

HEVC/H.265/MPEG-H is the next step in video compression codecs. It is designed to handle ALL future video formats including, 4K (2160P) and 8K (4320P) The purpose for this new codec is to improve efficiency - use less bandwidth/Mbps while maintaining high quality.

They don't need to increase the storage capacity for 4K. That would be very expense.

HD Goofnut
04-25-2012, 12:36 PM
HEVC/H.265/MPEG-H is the next step in video compression codecs. It is designed to handle ALL future video formats including, 4K (2160P) and 8K (4320P) The purpose for this new codec is to improve efficiency - use less bandwidth/Mbps while maintaining high quality.

They don't need to increase the storage capacity for 4K. That would be very expense.

Could a 65/70mm (8K) title fit on a BD-50 if H.265 was used?

Malanthius
04-25-2012, 02:51 PM
I'd have a hard time recommending this player when you can get a wifi Bluray player for 49 bucks. By the time 4K players are the norm (if that happens) the players will be better and cheaper. Just remembering my BDP S1. Yuck! Thankfully I only paid 99 bucks for that turd.

HD Goofnut
04-25-2012, 03:09 PM
I'd have a hard time recommending this player when you can get a wifi Bluray player for 49 bucks. By the time 4K players are the norm (if that happens) the players will be better and cheaper. Just remembering my BDP S1. Yuck! Thankfully I only paid 99 bucks for that turd.

Not one that supports 3D and acts as a media center for all of the mentioned providers.

Kosty
04-25-2012, 03:27 PM
Do you think this player could support a native 4K disc with a FW update? I suppose it's possible if same type of laser is used for these newer discs, right?

There is no free lunch. The tradeoff with H.265 is that it provides 2x better video compression performance at the expense of significantly higher computational complexity, compared with H.264. The chip needs to have more processing power.

Moore's Law.

This device does seem to possess that computational power.

At its price point its the same cost as a PS3 with more power. If you want a high end Blu-ray player, it may make sense.

Heck at $200 street price I may want one myself.

Kosty
04-25-2012, 03:28 PM
Just read elsewhere that this is not actually a 4k player but a Blu-ray player that can upscale to 4k.

I guess it would be useful now for those with 4k projectors. Don't those projectors have there own built-in upscaler?

They do.

Kosty
04-25-2012, 03:31 PM
So a limited amount of people may have the chance to upscale to 4k.

Yeah.... Who is spending $250 on this?

It would also be an incredibly fast Blu-ray 3D player and probably would have excellent DVD upconversion as well. Plus all the streaming apps.

It probably would make all the Netflix and Hulu streaming stuff look better as well.

At $200 or so street price, it would not be much more than other Blu-ray 3D players.

mikemorel
04-25-2012, 06:19 PM
It would also be an incredibly fast Blu-ray 3D player and probably would have excellent DVD upconversion as well. Plus all the streaming apps.You don't know whether it it's DVD upconversion is any better than a $50 upconverting DVD player. There were many examples of cheap DVD players with better DVD upconversion than more powerful blu-ray players back in the day.

It probably would make all the Netflix and Hulu streaming stuff look better as well.Maybe, maybe not. Won't know until someone objectively reviews it. Unlike the one "review" up on the website, which states it is "ten times" better at upscaling DVD.

At $200 or so street price, it would not be much more than other Blu-ray 3D players.So far it is $250 online.

Moore's law.

This device does seem to possess that computational power.LOL. Moore's law means this device supports net gen H.265 content?!? That is ludicrous. There were many dual core processor PCs that couldn't even decode H.264 properly. There is no indication on Sony's web site that this device supports anything other than 1080p blu-ray. Not to mention the added DRM that likely would accompany 4K H.265 content.

You don't even know what SoC is in this box, never mind what it's capabilities are. You are simply hoping.

At its price point its the same cost as a PS3 with more power. If you want a high end Blu-ray player, it may make sense.

Heck at $200 street price I may want one myself.I definitely think you should buy it. For PR purposes, if nothing else.

PSound
04-25-2012, 06:39 PM
You don't know whether it it's DVD upconversion is any better than a $50 upconverting DVD player. There were many examples of cheap DVD players with better DVD upconversion than more powerful blu-ray players back in the day.

Maybe, maybe not. Won't know until someone objectively reviews it. Unlike the one "review" up on the website, which states it is "ten times" better at upscaling DVD.

So far it is $250 online.

LOL. Moore's law means this device supports net gen H.265 content?!? That is ludicrous. There were many dual core processor PCs that couldn't even decode H.264 properly. There is no indication on Sony's web site that this device supports anything other than 1080p blu-ray. Not to mention the added DRM that likely would accompany 4K H.265 content.

You don't even know what SoC is in this box, never mind what it's capabilities are. You are simply hoping.

I definitely think you should buy it. For PR purposes, if nothing else.

The player itself is a non-story for the consumer.

But it is good fodder to keep the focus off of Blu-ray performance the last couple of weeks. I can only imagine how sheer that line is demonstrating BD YoY growth drop.

bruceames
04-25-2012, 06:49 PM
I don't see the usefulness of the player beyond playing Blu-rays and streaming. It only upscales to 2160p and will never play 2160p content. The upscaling will only be noticeable on 4k displays, and the only 4k displays that exist now very likely have better built-in upscalers than this one. So the player upscaler will never be used.

Seems like a marketing gimmick to me and nothing else.

Lee Stewart
04-25-2012, 07:08 PM
I don't see the usefulness of the player beyond playing Blu-rays and streaming. It only upscales to 2160p and will never play 2160p content. The upscaling will only be noticeable on 4k displays, and the only 4k displays that exist now very likely have better built-in upscalers than this one. So the player upscaler will never be used.

Seems like a marketing gimmick to me and nothing else.

"There's a sucker born every minute"

Malanthius
04-25-2012, 07:12 PM
I don't see the usefulness of the player beyond playing Blu-rays and streaming. It only upscales to 2160p and will never play 2160p content. The upscaling will only be noticeable on 4k displays, and the only 4k displays that exist now very likely have better built-in upscalers than this one. So the player upscaler will never be used.

Seems like a marketing gimmick to me and nothing else.

Yup! Which is why I can't see buying this over a 49 dollar wifi Bluray player. Not much benifit from it. I can't see many jumping at this. Hell I can't get my relatives interested in a Bluray player. They are not going to run out and buy this. I can only see hard core Bluray nerds running to get one of these. And then, MAYBE!

Kosty
04-25-2012, 07:42 PM
if its faster at loading Blu-ray discs and has better upconversion than a PS3 with all the same or better streaming apps it could be a pretty good deal for the price point.

If it has a similar to PS3 media crossbar interface and makes it easier to use with other Sony products then it could be an attractive option for many high end users.

Obviously we won't know until we see it in action and get some good reviews but if they are positioning it as a high end upconverting player as a strength it would make sense they would harness some of its processing power to not only potentially upconvert Blu-ray quality HD video well but also standard definition content to 1080p as well.

Kosty
04-25-2012, 07:48 PM
I don't see the usefulness of the player beyond playing Blu-rays and streaming. It only upscales to 2160p and will never play 2160p content. The upscaling will only be noticeable on 4k displays, and the only 4k displays that exist now very likely have better built-in upscalers than this one. So the player upscaler will never be used.

Seems like a marketing gimmick to me and nothing else.

As a flagship product with that capability that's a pretty modest price point that will get attention.

Even if that 4K capability would never be used, having it being capable of that pretty much ensures that it would be a pretty good performing normal Blu-ray and Blu-ray 3D and streaming device as well.

Just like most any 3D HDTV on the market is a well above average regular HDTV display as just having the capability to do the next generation processing and display capability means it has to be able ot do the older generation processing and display at an above average level.

The thing that makes it attractive, regardless of the potential use of the 4K capability is the price point at a modest $250 MSRP.

Kosty
04-25-2012, 07:51 PM
The player itself is a non-story for the consumer.

But it is good fodder to keep the focus off of Blu-ray performance the last couple of weeks. I can only imagine how sheer that line is demonstrating BD YoY growth drop.

I'm sure the consumer electronic and Blu-ray player line managers at Sony could care less about the last week's cumulative statistics for Blu-ray sales for the industry as a whole or what they were on week 15 of 52 weeks for the year.

Besides weeks like the next one coming up of Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol and others in the year will probably take care of those things all by itself.

PSound
04-25-2012, 08:12 PM
I don't see the usefulness of the player beyond playing Blu-rays and streaming. It only upscales to 2160p and will never play 2160p content. The upscaling will only be noticeable on 4k displays, and the only 4k displays that exist now very likely have better built-in upscalers than this one. So the player upscaler will never be used.

Seems like a marketing gimmick to me and nothing else.

Yep. It is even ddd that it was even posted in a media sub-forum as there is nothing really notable about its ability to playback media.

Pure marketing gimmick.

Kosty
04-25-2012, 08:24 PM
Yep. It is even ddd that it was even posted in a media sub-forum as there is nothing really notable about its ability to playback media.

Pure marketing gimmick.

The subforum here is a discussion of high definition media and issues not only considering its current performance but also future developments.

Since this is the first 4K capable device on the market and it has some relevance to the future extensions of the high definition Blu-ray format makes it an interesting topic for discussion. Sorry you disagree.

I do not open threads as a "marketing gimmick" and its hardly going to make an impact on its sales or much of a diversion by its discussion of any its merits or lack there of by the comments here.

I'd just thought it an interesting topic as its the first consumer device as an extension into the resolution of 4K by any Blu-ray device and I thought some would find it interesting as well. Plus I wanted to get some of your's take on the release of this 4K player, even your's.

chipvideo
04-25-2012, 08:41 PM
I don't see the usefulness of the player beyond playing Blu-rays and streaming. It only upscales to 2160p and will never play 2160p content. The upscaling will only be noticeable on 4k displays, and the only 4k displays that exist now very likely have better built-in upscalers than this one. So the player upscaler will never be used.

Seems like a marketing gimmick to me and nothing else.

Yep. This is exactly what it is. The only problem is hardly anyone has a device to upconvert it too. :banana:

Lee Stewart
04-25-2012, 09:37 PM
The subforum here is a discussion of high definition media and issues not only considering its current performance but also future developments.

Since this is the first 4K capable device on the market and it has some relevance to the future extensions of the high definition Blu-ray format makes it an interesting topic for discussion. Sorry you disagree.

I do not open threads as a "marketing gimmick" and its hardly going to make an impact on its sales or much of a diversion by its discussion of any its merits or lack there of by the comments here.

I'd just thought it an interesting topic as its the first consumer device as an extension into the resolution of 4K by any Blu-ray device and I thought some would find it interesting as well. Plus I wanted to get some of your's take on the release of this 4K player, even your's.

Not to be argumentative . . .

This is not a 4K BD player. It is a BD player that can upscale 2K to 4K.

As you know, at this time, there is no such thing as a 4K BD, as that format has yet to be released by the BDA.

Kosty
04-25-2012, 09:46 PM
Not to be argumentative . . .

This is not a 4K BD player. It is a BD player that can upscale 2K to 4K.

As you know, at this time, there is no such thing as a 4K BD, as that format has yet to be released by the BDA.

Yes, that's a better way of saying it to be most accurate. But the public perception of enthusiasts will be that its a 4K device and its probably going to be marketed that way as well.

As others and I have said in this thread it might have the potential of being firmware upgraded to that capability since its Sony that is working on the 4K Blu-ray specifications.

It still is a "4K capable device" since its outputting 4K to some display that can accept it but its not yet a real "4K Blu-ray" format player as that specification does not exist yet.

chipvideo
04-25-2012, 09:53 PM
I think the public has learned the bogus claims of upconverting over the last decade. The 4K device already has a better upconverter than the POS bd upconverter itself. It is going to be a BAD seller.

DonnyDC
04-25-2012, 11:13 PM
This player is awesome without the 4K. People are spending more on Oppo players.

It has super bit mapping, this feature has previously only been available on sonys ES line of players. I dont think any other manufacture has anything similar. And it plays SACD like Oppo players. Most likely its faster too. And it has 3D conversion if thats important to you, but your 3DTV never had that feature.
Is the 4K upscaling important? I dunno Onkyo receivers have it too, obviously theres someone out there who finds it useful.

chipvideo
04-25-2012, 11:19 PM
I wouldn't touch a sony bd player with a 10 foot pole. Odds are it has built in cinavia.

DonnyDC
04-25-2012, 11:26 PM
I wouldn't touch a sony bd player with a 10 foot pole. Odds are it has built in cinavia.How does that affect your average customer?

chipvideo
04-25-2012, 11:38 PM
How does that affect your average customer?

I could care less how the average customer is concerned. The avarage customer doesn't even own a bd player yet.

I doubt the average customer has a 4K display to utilize the upscaling this is designed for.

DonnyDC
04-25-2012, 11:46 PM
I could care less how the average customer is concerned. The avarage customer doesn't even own a bd player yet.Sigh.. how does cinavia affect you?

Im genuinely interested as to why I shouldnt touch this player with a 10 foot pole.

Kosty
04-26-2012, 12:19 AM
This player is awesome without the 4K. People are spending more on Oppo players.

It has super bit mapping, this feature has previously only been available on sonys ES line of players. I dont think any other manufacture has anything similar. And it plays SACD like Oppo players. Most likely its faster too. And it has 3D conversion if thats important to you, but your 3DTV never had that feature.
Is the 4K upscaling important? I dunno Onkyo receivers have it too, obviously theres someone out there who finds it useful.

It has super bit mapping, this feature has previously only been available on sonys ES line of players. Wow.

That would be significant.

The Sony ES line of players that was dedicated toward the custom installer channel CEDIA type folks had really good DVD performance as well as award winning Blu-ray performance (mostly for its color accuracy and controls as almost any Blu-ray player is capable of great Blu-ray performance with common SoC chipsets).

That would imply it would have strong horsepower for standard definition upconversion as well.

1stSilverado
04-26-2012, 09:37 AM
Sigh.. how does cinavia affect you?

Im genuinely interested as to why I shouldnt touch this player with a 10 foot pole.

I will never touch a Samsung BD player. Purchased two and both have failed within months of purchase and became doorstops.
I would wager a guess that Chip has had a poor experience with Sony.

Malanthius
04-26-2012, 11:30 AM
Yes, that's a better way of saying it to be most accurate. But the public perception of enthusiasts will be that its a 4K device and its probably going to be marketed that way as well.

As others and I have said in this thread it might have the potential of being firmware upgraded to that capability since its Sony that is working on the 4K Blu-ray specifications.

It still is a "4K capable device" since its outputting 4K to some display that can accept it but its not yet a real "4K Blu-ray" format player as that specification does not exist yet.
Funny I don't recall you hyping/pushing those 1080p upscale DVD players. Probably because they didn't have the name "Bluray" on the box. Oh the irony.

Cygnus
04-26-2012, 12:03 PM
What is sony thinking here? How many ppl are interested in buying this? You'd think with the mistakes they have made over the years, they would have learned by now.

dangerdoc
04-26-2012, 12:10 PM
Do you think this player could support a native 4K disc with a FW update? I suppose it's possible if same type of laser is used for these newer discs, right?

I really doubt that this player's SOC has the horsepower to process native 4k. I base this on the fact that it would have to be an entirely new chip design and Sony would not be selling at this price point.

This is more like an upscaling DVD player. Something to feek into their new 4k projectors until native software is available.

I would be shocked if the first native 4k player retails for less than $1000.

PSound
04-26-2012, 12:10 PM
Funny I don't recall you hyping/pushing those 1080p upscale DVD players. Probably because they didn't have the name "Bluray" on the box. Oh the irony.

:banana:

HD Goofnut
04-26-2012, 01:14 PM
I really doubt that this player's SOC has the horsepower to process native 4k. I base this on the fact that it would have to be an entirely new chip design and Sony would not be selling at this price point.

This is more like an upscaling DVD player. Something to feek into their new 4k projectors until native software is available.

I would be shocked if the first native 4k player retails for less than $1000.

Could be or it could be like Lee said where the only difference is H.265 versus H.264. I guess we will find out in the next couple years.

Cygnus
04-26-2012, 01:38 PM
All the more reason not to buy this now...

Could be or it could be like Lee said where the only difference is H.265 versus H.264. I guess we will find out in the next couple years.

DonnyDC
04-26-2012, 02:30 PM
Funny I don't recall you hyping/pushing those 1080p upscale DVD players. Probably because they didn't have the name "Bluray" on the box. Oh the irony.Uh yeah? Upscaled DVD wont look like upscaled blu ray. For some reason you think its the same comparison?
"Eww you bought a hyundai, a poor mans honda. Thats like buying an audi instead of a lamborghini."

Lee Stewart
04-26-2012, 02:39 PM
Dual/multi-core technology can be found in computers and phones but thanks to Sony, we can also add Blu-ray players to that list. Their new Blu-ray player that goes by the name BDP-S790 uses dual-core processing power to upscale to a 4K resolution (3840 x 2160) or to convert 2D images to 3D. Obviously the player needs to connect to a display that is able to show 4k or 3D and these are only slowing becoming available.

I know very little about what the requirements would be for a true 4K BD player other then:

1. Needs H.265 codec
2. Needs 300 Mhz HDMI TX chip (available now)
3. Needs heavy duty processing power

H.265 will be a standard in January 2013.

DonnyDC
04-26-2012, 02:46 PM
Could be or it could be like Lee said where the only difference is H.265 versus H.264. I guess we will find out in the next couple years.The jump to H.265 alone will require more computational power. Im not sure current players will be able to handle it considering the significant requirements H.264 needed over H.222(MPEG2)

Lee Stewart
04-26-2012, 03:01 PM
The jump to H.265 alone will require more computational power. Im not sure current players will be able to handle it considering the significant requirements H.264 needed over H.222(MPEG2)

See previous post #60

Kosty
04-26-2012, 04:10 PM
Funny I don't recall you hyping/pushing those 1080p upscale DVD players. Probably because they didn't have the name "Bluray" on the box. Oh the irony.

I liked the superior upconversion of HD DVD players during the format war and some Blu-ray players as well. I thought either HD format was better than buying a pure upconverting DVD player to play DVDs without having a true HD capable machine. Most HDTVs had as good of DVD upconversion as most upconverting DVD players so they are mostly a waste if they cost more from that standpoint.

I think the upconversion of this box may show itself best in streaming content, not upconverting DVDs.

I support and like Blu-ray because its the highest quality consumer format around and I like seeing more and more movies released on it over time and its growing sales year after year.

So you hate this box because it has "Blu-ray" on it and can play Blu-ray Discs and its from Sony the originator of the Blu-ray format? That seems odd.

Kosty
04-26-2012, 04:16 PM
Funny I don't recall you hyping/pushing those 1080p upscale DVD players. Probably because they didn't have the name "Bluray" on the box. Oh the irony.

A player that is upconverting from 1080p Blu-ray is going to produce a better image than upconverting from 480i60 DVD or other standard definition sources.

But without consumer level 4k displays being common and those that will be available having native embedded already I don't really see the utility of the 4K upconversion feature.

My point was this probably will be a fast well performing Blu-ray 3D player with pretty good standard definition content upconversion to 1080p with all the Internet streaming app goodies, so it might be a pretty good value at this $250 MSRP $200 street price point.

dangerdoc
04-26-2012, 04:52 PM
Could be or it could be like Lee said where the only difference is H.265 versus H.264. I guess we will find out in the next couple years.

The difference is a codec and a lot more pixels which will require a lot more CPU horsepower and memory bandwidth.

There were a lot of DVD players built with H.264 codec support. They did fine decoding SD files and even upscaling them to 1080p but they did not have the horsepower to decode HD files.

It's only been in the last few years that media player manufacturers have had access to reasonably priced SOCs that can handle 1080p reliably and 1080p has been part of the ATSC standard for years.

Lee Stewart
04-26-2012, 05:14 PM
The difference is a codec and a lot more pixels which will require a lot more CPU horsepower and memory bandwidth.

There were a lot of DVD players built with H.264 codec support. They did fine decoding SD files and even upscaling them to 1080p but they did not have the horsepower to decode HD files.

It's only been in the last few years that media player manufacturers have had access to reasonably priced SOCs that can handle 1080p reliably and 1080p has been part of the ATSC standard for years.

What is memory bandwidth?

chipvideo
04-26-2012, 06:41 PM
A player that is upconverting from 1080p Blu-ray is going to produce a better image than upconverting from 480i60 DVD or other standard definition sources.

But without consumer level 4k displays being common and those that will be available having native embedded already I don't really see the utility of the 4K upconversion feature.

My point was this probably will be a fast well performing Blu-ray 3D player with pretty good standard definition content upconversion to 1080p with all the Internet streaming app goodies, so it might be a pretty good value at this $250 MSRP $200 street price point.

I don't see this as catching on at all with joesixpack. I think they are already having a hard time giving $80 blu-ray players a good value. The numbers after 6 years on the market speak for themselves. :banana:

chipvideo
04-26-2012, 06:43 PM
This product is fail out the gate. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this. Whoever thought this was a good business plan should be fired at Sony. I bet whoever decision it was ends up on the chopping block.

chipvideo
04-26-2012, 06:46 PM
The only reason why upconversion worked with dvd was because we went from using analog signal to a hdmi digital signal. That was the biggest improvement in those players. Everyone is already using HDMI with there blu ray setups now so there is no benefit to upconversion. The scaler in that 4k tv is gonna have one heck of a lot better scaler than the one in that POS sony upconverter.

When I got my sony dvd upconverter the best settings going out to the tv were 480i. The tv scaled it better than the player. I expect nothing different here.

DonnyDC
04-26-2012, 07:12 PM
Ive never seen an anti sony viral marketer before. Oh wait I have(Super XP)

Lee Stewart
04-26-2012, 07:18 PM
Ive never seen an anti sony viral marketer before. Oh wait I have(Super XP)

What about Stew4HD . . .

"Die Sony Die!"

:lol:

Lee Stewart
04-26-2012, 08:03 PM
This may be what is inside this Sony BD player . . .

Dual-Core ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore Processor (SoC)

http://www.altera.com/devices/processor/arm/cortex-a9/m-arm-cortex-a9.html


4K Video Upscaling Format Conversion

Altera’s 4K Video Upscaling Format Conversion reference design performs upscaling up to 4K resolutions by taking in a 1080p video format over a 3G-SDI interface, upscaling it to 4K x 2K resolution, and sending the output over four 3G-SDI interfaces. You can leverage this reference design to help you jump start your system development.

http://www.altera.com/support/refdesigns/sys-sol/broadcast/ref-4k-video-upscaling.html

Kosty
04-26-2012, 11:15 PM
I don't see this as catching on at all with joesixpack. I think they are already having a hard time giving $80 blu-ray players a good value. The numbers after 6 years on the market speak for themselves. :banana:

Who says a $250 player with bells and whistles is aimed at J6P?

Cygnus
04-26-2012, 11:21 PM
With the state sony is in, shouldn't they try to target J6P? :what: A 4K BR player is a niche of a niche market.

Who says a $250 player with bells and whistles is aimed at J6P?

chipvideo
04-26-2012, 11:44 PM
Who says a $250 player with bells and whistles is aimed at J6P?

If it isn't then the person who greenlit this for Sony should be canned. I don't expect them to even recoup their R&D from it.

DonnyDC
04-26-2012, 11:48 PM
With the state sony is in, shouldn't they try to target J6P? :what: A 4K BR player is a niche of a niche market.The correct answer is.

They should target every market.

You want J6P and the niche market. For some manufacturers the premium market may be the only segment they can make money off of with off brands controlling the J6P market.

Lee Stewart
04-27-2012, 12:00 AM
The correct answer is.

They should target every market.

You want J6P and the niche market. For some manufacturers the premium market may be the only segment they can make money off of with off brands controlling the J6P market.

LOL - 4K today has got to be the nichest market that ever existed.

And both the JVC and Sony 4k projectors, the only 4K available displays, both have 2K to 4K upscalers in them. Surely better then a $250 BD player.

Malanthius
04-27-2012, 12:04 AM
I liked the superior upconversion of HD DVD players during the format war and some Blu-ray players as well. I thought either HD format was better than buying a pure upconverting DVD player to play DVDs without having a true HD capable machine. Most HDTVs had as good of DVD upconversion as most upconverting DVD players so they are mostly a waste if they cost more from that standpoint.

I think the upconversion of this box may show itself best in streaming content, not upconverting DVDs.

I support and like Blu-ray because its the highest quality consumer format around and I like seeing more and more movies released on it over time and its growing sales year after year.

So you hate this box because it has "Blu-ray" on it and can play Blu-ray Discs and its from Sony the originator of the Blu-ray format? That seems odd.

I don't hate the player. (just the game) ;) I just don't think it's needed and the best bang for your buck. I could buy 4 wifi Bluray players for the price. I also support and like Bluray. The difference between us is I can actually speak honestly about Blurays failures and I don't hype the format or pull any punches. You avoid mentioning the problems and act like there were no expectations for the format. We all know that is crazy and I think you are the only one that says that. Notice I didn't say think? Because I don't think you actually think that. I think you say that as some kind of defense for Bluray.

Besides you missed my point. You are hyping an upscaling player. It's not a true 4k player. Just like the upscale DVD players is not a true HD player. Yet you are hyping this fake 4k player and never did the same for the fake DVD/1080p players. Why? Because they were competing with Bluray players. Like I said, ironic. ;)

DonnyDC
04-27-2012, 12:06 AM
LOL - 4K today has got to be the nichest market that ever existed.

And both the JVC and Sony 4k projectors, the only 4K available displays, both have 2K to 4K upscalers in them. Surely better then a $250 BD player.4K is just a byproduct of the dual core processor. If it can support it, why not. But the player uses it for more than just 4K.

The PS3 is also capable of 4K, and will most likely get it in a future firmware update.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/03/ps3-will-support-4k-stills-after-a-future-update-moving-picture/

Malanthius
04-27-2012, 12:11 AM
The correct answer is.

They should target every market.

You want J6P and the niche market. For some manufacturers the premium market may be the only segment they can make money off of with off brands controlling the J6P market.

Haha! That's what got them into trouble. They were all over the place with many different models. And you are suggesting for them to waste money on a product this niche? And there is no 4k content.

Lee Stewart
04-27-2012, 12:18 AM
4K is just a byproduct of the dual core processor. If it can support it, why not. But the player uses it for more than just 4K.

Are you aware that all BD players with an HDMI 1.3 or higher chip in them support Deep Color. ;)

4K just happens to be the lastest "buzz word" - that's all

The PS3 is also capable of 4K, and will most likely get it in a future firmware update.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/03/ps3-will-support-4k-stills-after-a-future-update-moving-picture/

That link says 4K stills - not 4K video:

PS3 will support 4K stills after a future update, moving pictures remain out of reach

DonnyDC
04-27-2012, 12:25 AM
Haha! That's what got them into trouble. They were all over the place with many different models. And you are suggesting for them to waste money on a product this niche? And there is no 4k content.Really thats why theyre in trouble?
You do realize that samsung and LG also employ this 'many different model' strategy.
They both have flagship blu ray players above $200. And lets not even talk about pioneers blu ray player.
http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/samsung-samsung-smart-3d-blu-ray-player-bd-e6500-bd-e6500/10198702.aspx

That link says 4K stills - not 4K video:

PS3 will support 4K stills after a future update, moving pictures remain out of reachWhy support 4K at all?
Because they can.

Lee Stewart
04-27-2012, 12:43 AM
Why support 4K at all?
Because they can.

So I guess you agree with Bruce . . . it's a marketing gimmick.

DonnyDC
04-27-2012, 12:48 AM
So I guess you agree with Bruce . . . it's a marketing gimmick.Well yeah. The same with onkyo receivers. They upscale to 4K, most people dont need 4K, but you know what I betcha onkyo is still managing to sell units.

Lee Stewart
04-27-2012, 12:53 AM
Well yeah. The same with onkyo receivers. They upscale to 4K, most people dont need 4K, but you know what I betcha onkyo is still managing to sell units.

So is Yamaha and Pioneer and their AVRs don't have a 4K upscaler in them.

DonnyDC
04-27-2012, 12:56 AM
So is Yamaha and Pioneer and their AVRs don't have a 4K upscaler in them.Ok?
Im not advocating samsung and lg start putting in 4K upscalers.

Lee Stewart
04-27-2012, 01:04 AM
With the lukewarm reception consumers have given 3DTV, CEMs are searching for; "the next big thing." Why they think it's going to be 4K is beyond me.

PSound
04-27-2012, 08:49 AM
I don't hate the player. (just the game) ;) I just don't think it's needed and the best bang for your buck. I could buy 4 wifi Bluray players for the price. I also support and like Bluray. The difference between us is I can actually speak honestly about Blurays failures and I don't hype the format or pull any punches. You avoid mentioning the problems and act like there were no expectations for the format. We all know that is crazy and I think you are the only one that says that. Notice I didn't say think? Because I don't think you actually think that. I think you say that as some kind of defense for Bluray.

Besides you missed my point. You are hyping an upscaling player. It's not a true 4k player. Just like the upscale DVD players is not a true HD player. Yet you are hyping this fake 4k player and never did the same for the fake DVD/1080p players. Why? Because they were competing with Bluray players. Like I said, ironic. ;)

Well said on each and every point!

dangerdoc
04-27-2012, 09:24 AM
What is memory bandwidth?

Not only does the CPU have to be fast enough to process the data, the memory bandwidth has to be high enough to get that much data into the CPU and back out.

Malanthius
04-27-2012, 11:21 AM
With the lukewarm reception consumers have given 3DTV, CEMs are searching for; "the next big thing." Why they think it's going to be 4K is beyond me.

Exactly Lee! Maybe they think 1080p wasn't enough? And that what will REALLY resell catalog is 4k!? Because that's the end goal. To get everyone to rebuy those movies and get back to the glory days of DVD. And Sony is a studio. Catalog is what is needed to achieve that. I know of one person here that doesn't believe that and has said catalog isnt that important. I think he is dead wrong.

PSound
04-27-2012, 01:46 PM
Exactly Lee! Maybe they think 1080p wasn't enough? And that what will REALLY resell catalog is 4k!? Because that's the end goal. To get everyone to rebuy those movies and get back to the glory days of DVD. And Sony is a studio. Catalog is what is needed to achieve that. I know of one person here that doesn't believe that and has said catalog isnt that important. I think he is dead wrong.

Of course catalog is important.

It is critically important. It is what made DVD such a cash cow. It is why 6 years down the line, the PR pimps are still pushing BDs low marketshare as a victory. They have to call it a victory now because BDs lack of ability to develop a catalog market prevents it from challenging DVD... even half a dozen years after Blu-rays introduction!

Lee Stewart
04-27-2012, 02:07 PM
Not only does the CPU have to be fast enough to process the data, the memory bandwidth has to be high enough to get that much data into the CPU and back out.

That is called the Memory Bus. When it comes to high resolution video, the bus is not the limiting factor.

Malanthius
04-27-2012, 02:42 PM
With the lukewarm reception consumers have given 3DTV, CEMs are searching for; "the next big thing." Why they think it's going to be 4K is beyond me.

Of course catalog is important.

It is critically important. It is what made DVD such a cash cow. It is why 6 years down the line, the PR pimps are still pushing BDs low marketshare as a victory. They have to call it a victory now because BDs lack of ability to develop a catalog market prevents it from challenging DVD... even half a dozen years after Blu-rays introduction!

Exactly! That's why I always found it as a crock that someone would say catalog isn't important for Bluray to be a success. Especially when that said someone is comparing Blurays sales to DVDs all the time. Obviously DVD is the benchmark we are comparing Bluray to. Well, until Bluray sales flounder...

HD Goofnut
04-27-2012, 02:51 PM
Exactly! That's why I always found it as a crock that someone would say catalog isn't important for Bluray to be a success. Especially when that said someone is comparing Blurays sales to DVDs all the time. Obviously DVD is the benchmark we are comparing Bluray to. Well, until Bluray sales flounder...

You're :horse: again. Try and post something different for a change. Or just put the same post in your avatar.

JerryDandridge
04-27-2012, 04:29 PM
Of course catalog is important.

It is critically important. It is what made DVD such a cash cow. It is why 6 years down the line, the PR pimps are still pushing BDs low marketshare as a victory. They have to call it a victory now because BDs lack of ability to develop a catalog market prevents it from challenging DVD... even half a dozen years after Blu-rays introduction!

Since EST can't sell catalog or new releases, and generates an even LOWER market share than BD, it's obviously a total failure to all but the PR pimps.

Lee Stewart
04-27-2012, 04:47 PM
Since EST can't sell catalog or new releases, and generates an even LOWER market share than BD, it's obviously a total failure to all but the PR pimps.

What do you expect when half the time, EST is priced higher then the BD?

Pay more - get less . . . what a novel concept! :rolleyes:

Malanthius
04-27-2012, 04:49 PM
You're :horse: again. Try and post something different for a change. Or just put the same post in your avatar.

Sorry. I keep thinking the horse is going to get up and say ok! Ok already!! ;) he's not dead I tell ya! ;)

Malanthius
04-27-2012, 04:51 PM
What do you expect when half the time, EST is priced higher then the BD?

Pay more - get less . . . what a novel concept! :rolleyes:

Yes but it makes a great apples to oranges comparison! ;)

Lee Stewart
04-27-2012, 05:01 PM
Yes but it makes a great apples to oranges comparison! ;)

more like apples to bricks

PSound
04-27-2012, 05:18 PM
Exactly! That's why I always found it as a crock that someone would say catalog isn't important for Bluray to be a success. Especially when that said someone is comparing Blurays sales to DVDs all the time. Obviously DVD is the benchmark we are comparing Bluray to. Well, until Bluray sales flounder...

If you were to believe the PR pimps, the studios would have had interviews with the press back in 2006:

"Well you know, we have strong expectations for Blu-ray. We fully expect Blu-ray to usher in a era of ever decreasing conversion rates for new releases on Home Video. It is a lot to ask a new format to actually drive down expected sales for Home Video based on a lead-in titles box office, but we believe Blu-ray delivers the experience that consumers are clamoring for and can deliver sustained negative conversion growth for new releases. We are planning to bundle just about every conceivable form of media with the Blu-ray SKU to make sure it succeeds in it goal of driving down conversion rate.

Meanwhile, we fully expect Blu-ray to show stellar market performance in catalog. We think it may even be able to generate 10% in catalog sales compared to DVD in 6 years time. I know.. I know... You are thinking 10% of DVDs all time high in catalog sales in unrealistic. That is why we are saying confidently today that Blu-ray will meet all expectations by selling 10% of a massively depressed catalog DVD market 6 years from now.

And we fully expect Blu-ray to not top 10% revenue in the largest rental option for Home Video. That single digit performance is just one other way that we know Blu-ray will be meeting our expectations for our industry.


Lofty expectations? Perhaps.. but we have full confidence that Blu-ray can be a massive success for us by never delivering significant revenue from catalog compared to its predecessor AND by fostering in sustained declines in conversion rate for new releases. As you can see, the future is bright for Hollywood with Blu-ray as the flagship product for Home Video.

We all know our PR department will be heralding these achievements Blu-ray will have rained upon the Home Video market. Indeed, with these sort of undeniable facts around market share and growth, I can one day imagine PR folk ridiculing those who see the above detailed market performance as anything other than meeting our high expectations".

JerryDandridge
04-27-2012, 05:37 PM
What do you expect when half the time, EST is priced higher then the BD?

Pay more - get less . . . what a novel concept! :rolleyes:

Just pointing out that for as bad as some may think BD is doing, and that it is doing so because of it's inability to resell catalog titles, the EST option is doing substantially worse.

Lee Stewart
04-27-2012, 05:53 PM
Just pointing out that for as bad as some may think BD is doing, and that it is doing so because of it's inability to resell catalog titles, the EST option is doing substantially worse.

As as has been pointed out - it's not an apples to apples comparison like BD is to DVD.

bruceames
04-27-2012, 06:02 PM
Just pointing out that for as bad as some may think BD is doing, and that it is doing so because of it's inability to resell catalog titles, the EST option is doing substantially worse.


I think I've heard this song before. ;)

Anyway, keep in mind that EST hasn't really been a bonfide and unified format, so it hasn't had the opportunity that BD has had for growth. If you think of BLu-ray as just smorgasbord of various HD formats, I'm sure it would sell much less than what it does now.

PSound
04-27-2012, 06:18 PM
I think I've heard this song before. ;)

Anyway, keep in mind that EST hasn't really been a bonfide and unified format, so it hasn't had the opportunity that BD has had for growth. If you think of BLu-ray as just smorgasbord of various HD formats, I'm sure it would sell much less than what it does now.

It's like gauging HD on disc based on WMV HD.

It is pretty obvious that standards matter.

JerryDandridge
04-27-2012, 06:23 PM
What do you expect when half the time, EST is priced higher then the BD?

Pay more - get less . . . what a novel concept! :rolleyes:

Since you brought up the subject of price.

EST currently averages less per qrt than OD does per week.

Is it the high pricing that is keeping people away from EST, or is it that the majority of consumers just can't justify spending money for a movie that has no physical substance?

Lee Stewart
04-27-2012, 07:18 PM
Since you brought up the subject of price.

EST currently averages less per qrt than OD does per week.

Is it the high pricing that is keeping people away from EST, or is it that the majority of consumers just can't justify spending money for a movie that has no physical substance?

In the "book of new ideas" . . . there are successes and there are failures. When trying to sell a new idea to consumers, it's very important to know if they want it or not.

DonnyDC
04-27-2012, 09:24 PM
Since EST can't sell catalog or new releases, and generates an even LOWER market share than BD, it's obviously a total failure to all but the PR pimps.You should know that the 'developing the catalog market' argument doesnt apply to digital.

Actually you shouldnt even mention EST or else you'll be accused of deflecting. DVD vs Blu ray is apples to apples while EST is like an orange rock for some reason.
Matter of fact, around here digitals success is based around its ability to destroy margins and decrease revenue.
Increasing Netflix presence = success
$3 vudu copies = success