Indoor antenna outperforming outdoor?

I know this doesn't seem possible, but here is my experience. I purchased a cheap Phillips MANT410 indoor antenna to get stations from Madison, WI from zip code 53517 (fairly high on a hill). I was surprised when I was actually able to get stations from Rockford, IL sporadically with this antenna. Being a Bear fan this was a great thing, and I figured even a relatively small outdoor antenna would pull in these stations easily (the Radio Shack rep agreed that any outdoor antenna should outperform an indoor).

I purchased a Winegard 4400, but was only able to get WTVO and WIFR (Freeport), whle the one I really want is WQRF. The odd thing is that no matter how I positioned the antenna (even parallel with the ground), I got the same 2 stations, but couldn't even get a Madison station. The only difference in the set up is that I am running the outdoor antenna to a Zinwell digital converter box (ZAT-970A) and then to a projector, rather than connecting directly to a TV.

I have to think I am doing something wrong with the outdoor antenna, but I have no idea what. The Radio Shack guy recommended buying a "booster" for $60-$80, I have to wonder about just buying a better indoor antenna.

Any explanations for this experience or recommendations for getting WRQF with a wall-mounted outdoor antenna?

I know this doesn't seem possible, but here is my experience. I purchased a cheap Phillips MANT410 indoor antenna to get stations from Madison, WI from zip code 53517 (fairly high on a hill). I was surprised when I was actually able to get stations from Rockford, IL sporadically with this antenna. Being a Bear fan this was a great thing, and I figured even a smaller outdoor antenna would pull in these stations easily (the Radio Shack rep agreed that any outdoor antenna should outperform an indoor).

I purchased a Winegard 4400, but was only able to get WTVO and WIFR (Freeport). The odd thing is that no matter how I positioned the antenna (even parallel with the ground), I got the same 2 stations, but couldn't even get a Madison station. The only difference in the set up is that I am running the outdoor antenna to a Zinwell digital converter box (ZAT-970A) and then to a projector, rather than connecting directly to a TV.

I have to think I am doing something wrong with the outdoor antenna, but I have no idea what. The Radio Shack guy recommended buying a "booster" for $60-$80, I have to wonder about just buying a better indoor antenna.

Any explanations for this experience?

Make sure the wires are connected securely. Check your coax to make sure it is completely screwed into place. If it is loose you can easily lose a lot of signal. Some of the more experienced people here may have some other suggestions to consider with the other boxes involved.

I do know this, you will see a decrease in signal strength even when you add just one other TV or VCR/DVD recorder or some other box into the chain. I bet if you ran the antenna wire straight to the TV and not through any other boxes you'd have better results.

Welcome to the forum tranelch!

Could you do us a favor?
Read my post:
http://www.highdefforum.com/local-hdtv-info-reception/102565-recommendations-when-posting-advice.html
and post an exact location tvfool, your zip report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dbc27e6ebdd63cd
doesn't seem to be of any help.

We'll be glad to try and help you get a handle on your situation, but we will need more info. BTW, as Mr Billiam has mentioned, did you split the signal to both the TV you orig had the station in question on and the box/projector?

Thanks,
Hooper

Sorry, I did read one of the "before you post" stickies, but not the one you pointed out to me. Here is the rest of the info:

tvfoolurl/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dbc273b79a5f2a3

* The approximate length of your cable run(s) = 60-70 ft. with outdoor, 6 ft with indoor antenna
* How many sets you are/intend on serving. = 1
* The model #'s of any existing antenna(s) = Winegard 4400
* The model #'s of any amplifiers you are using. = none
* Your specific geographic/environmental conditions. For instance: = high on a hill overlooking flat farmland as far as the eye can see. Worth noting that the address entered into tvfool is new, and we are probably close to 100' higher than the generic zip code location.

No splitters or any other equipment in either scenario.

Ya done good tranelch!

Here is your tvfool link:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dbc273b79a5f2a3
Much better!

And a good description of your details.:)

So with a 4400 antenna outdoors you can get WIFR RF 41 @ 15.1dB NM on a 147 degree aim but not WQRF RF 42 @ 12.8dB NM on the same aim? That is curious, I would think you'd be able to pull it in. I'm taking for granted you have the aim correct.;)

Could it be adjacent channel interference from 41???

But from the wording of your 1st post it sounds like you have only tried at ground level - with a signal of this strength you want to get the antenna some height, the tvfool you did is @ 20', is that how high the antenna actually is?

If you got the antenna up at say, 25'-30' aimed at ~130 degrees, and added an amp you might have a shot at getting all your 80-82 degree locals and the 147 degree aims in one shot.

Lets see what others have to say.

Just make two guesses, I might suggest two reasons for the anomaly.

1. The Phillips antenna appears to be amplified and the winegard is not.
With a big disparity in the coax run length, and the possibility that you purchased cheaper RG-59 instead of RG-6 or accidentally got a defective cable, it could explain part of the problem.

(2) The more likely explanation is that the phillips indoor antenna is designed to pick up both VHF and UHF frequencies, but the winegard 4400 is designed to pick up only UHF frequencies. So if your missing channels are those real channels 13 and under, it could go a long way towards explaining why you do not pick up VHF stations.

So pending studying that needed exact address TV fool, those are only my initial observations. And I suggest a better choice is likely to involve a bigger and better combo VHF/UHF outdoor antenna likely to breat the pants off the indoor antenna. Or some sort of outdoor multi antenna solution that will bring in the full spectrum of frequencies.

Good points NMT!:)
~70' -vs- ~6' at RF 42 is sure to make some difference, as is an amp.

The channel in question the OP wants is RF 42.

I totally forgot to consider VHF - My Bad!:o
He again, might be able to bag RF11 with the 4400 since it's fairly strong, but he will surely lose 13. And if he's interested in WHBF RF 4 it's a whole different ball game.

Either way, you are probably right to go with a combo antenna...

Hi Tranelch,

It looks very easy to get a full set of locals out of Madison WI using a Winegard 7696 antenna. Aim the antenna at 84 degrees and you should be good to go.

Are you also interested in the Rockford, IL channels?

After reading the aka.hooper link and the attached report, things get clearer and basically agree with his analysis.

I now tend to believe the problems with the winegard 4400 are not in raw gain but in small size. When even stations 17 miles away are one and two edge, and the desired Rockford stations are 60 miles away, you have to think in terms of an antenna with a larger collection area. And an amp will definitely be needed. After that a trial and error compromise aim between 82 and 147 degrees might get most of those stations. But I would advise against retaining the winegard 4400 which is too small in collection area and is rated at only 25 miles. That and getting the outdoor antenna up as high as possible is also recommended.

And yes a winegard 7696 might be the way to go for economy.

Wow! So much great info, thank you all very much. To clarify a couple points:

the antenna is 20' above ground level, though it seems it would be more important to know we are on a south-facing slope about 100' above the flat farmland to our south. We would have LOS to Rockford if the earth was flat:). Madison, on the other hand, is to our east/northeast, and we do not have LOS--though I think we are pretty close.
the cable is Dayton RG6/U
I'm not concerned about VHF--I'm pretty focused on just getting channel 42


I also did an experiment over lunch and connected the Winegard to the same TV I had connected the Phillips. Whether I held the antenna in the middle of the room with a 6' cable or held it out a window with a 25' cable, I was able to get channel 13.1 out of Rockford (59.7 miles away), but no other stations (not even the Madison stations).

What I am hearing is that to improve upon the Phillips indoor, I need to get a large roof-mounted antenna. Am I correct that the mounting alone for that antenna is going to be much more challenging than the quick wall-mount of the 4400? If I can get a station in the yellow area of the tvfool map (59.7 miles away) without an amplifier, what are the chances I could get a station on fringe of the red area (60.3 miles away) with an amplifier (can you tell the thought of mounting a large antenna makes me nervous)?

To Tranelch,

Who points out, "the antenna is 20' above ground level, though it seems it would be more important to know we are on a south-facing slope about 100' above the flat farmland to our south."

The problem there is that you may be relatively better off than someone a mile to your South because you have more elevation, its all those intervening hills between you and Rockfort. And some hill 30 miles away can be the culprit. I am half way familiar with your terrain which can have many hills. And anytime you get out of line of sight, signals are bouncing all along the terrain, and getting those signals takes an antenna with a big collection area.

And once you get out of line of sight, signal strength at your antenna is the big variable. Meaning a closer and weaker channel may not match the performance of a more distant but stronger channel. And the higher up the real UHF range you go, the less the signal is able to refract around obstacles. And while an amp may not be able to amplify a signal that is not there, it can make up for coax losses that are also higher on UHF and bring in weak stations not gettable with an amp.

And yes a larger and heavier antenna can be a problem, but a trip to a big box store that has various antenna mounting systems might yield a mount you are comfortable installing your self, but still, do not risk it
if you are out of your league and hire a professional instead. Even at 20 feet, injury is too likely. And with lots of roofers around, they may be willing to take on a few hour project cheap. Just make sure the antenna is properly grounded and installed.

tranelch, might I suggest that...

1. IMO you should be able to get the channel you're after (and a whole lot more) so long as you get your antenna some air & an amp - but it may require a different antenna, and...

2. You are ready to follow thru with it if it should require such an antenna. (Winegard HD-7696)

3. The mounting should be pretty much the same - a wall mount and a 10' galvanized 1-1/4" electrical conduit pipe should be fine. Just be sure to hit beams with the bolts, or sandwich the inside (attic access?) w/2"x4" for reinforcement - into the sheathing isn't strong enough. (Unless maybe if you have T-111 over plywood, I suppose?;))

4. Since you will do it one way or the other, and you already have the 4400, might I suggest you mount the antenna & take a drive by radio shack and pick up an amp just to try. The 15-1170:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103913&tab=support
has 10dB of gain and pretty a high noise factor, but you can put the amp up near the antenna where it will do the most good. And this is just to prove feasibility - if you have some success you can return the RS and order a better amp.

Or you're returning the amp and ordering a better amp & a better antenna - hey it's worth a try.:D

Do keep in mind what NMT mentioned about proper grounding:
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/AntInstallGuide.pdf

Thank you all for the information and the education. As much as I had read before posting, your comments have really been helpful. I already have the mounting holes in the side of my house, so I think I'll try to make a mid-size amplified antenna work first. I have a hunch I'll end up following the advice of the knowledgeable folks here when all is said and done.

Thanks again for taking the time to help out,
Chris

Hey tranelch, I think I take exception to the way you worded that!:D