Tried to get my dish installed today...

I've been lurking here for a while, but it's time to start posting:

I had the dish installer out today to get me set up with America's 120 and the HD package. He told me he couldn't install here because of lack of grounding. That surprized me because the dish would be on a steel pole sticking into the ground. He said if a local contractor would install it, I'd be fine. But he would get in trouble for doing the installation.

Now, my question: Does anyone know if there's any way to get to just give me the dish and receiver to install it myself? My buddy did this with his DirecTV. My rep at the Sam's Club kiosk seemed to think this wasn't possible. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Sounds like you need to get an installer that wants to work out there. Unless you are in an apartment that has the electrical service a long way away from you, or is closed up, grounding should not be that hard.

The pole does not count as a ground. The system has to be bonded to the house electric. Can be very dangerous (1 in a million chance but it could happen) if there is a seperate ground or the system is not grounded.

Are you in an apartment?

Yes I am in an apartment, on ground level with a walk-out patio. There is a grounded outlet box on my patio, but he said that won't work. Again, I don't know why, since the box is clearly grounded into the main electric ground.

He is correct that grounded outlet may not go all the way back to the main power. NEC is very specific in the area of grounding. Must be bonded to main electric ground, or within 5' of where water supply enters building as long as that is a metal water pipe (this is simple way to state it).

You have an otption - you can get someone who does not care if they do it right and run the risk that something may happen - or you can go without a sattelite system.

I'm getting tired of dealing with the Dish people so I might just forget about the whole affair. I really wanted the Speed Channel for Formula One, but I'll have to make do. Perhaps I can get a rebate on rent since my signing a lease was with the condition that I had a dish capable unit. Thanks for your help.

Best of luck Suomi.

I don't know if Dish realizes how much they leave to chance to with some of these lazy or poorly trained installers.

daleb,

This has nothing to do with lazy. If the installer is good he will only do the job if it can meet code. Apartments make it very hard to meet code sometimes. Grounding or lack there of can be a dangerous situation, and under the right conditions someone could get hurt or killed.

daleb,

This has nothing to do with lazy. If the installer is good he will only do the job if it can meet code. Apartments make it very hard to meet code sometimes. Grounding or lack there of can be a dangerous situation, and under the right conditions someone could get hurt or killed.

I have no qualms with a tech being safe AND working to code, that was not my point . But can have everything to do with training and experience...and if he is any good he won't be lazy either. :)

and as I was initialing the various lines on the service agreement when I came upon the "tech showed me where the ground box is" line. Interestingly enough, the ground box was a wire wadded into a ball and stuffed into the back of the dish. I'd appreciate some comments from knowledgeable folks about this. Should I be very concerned, somewhat concerned, or only slightly concerned? Everything appears to be working correctly but I'm haunted by the remark of a local retailer who told me that most of his business comes from bad installations by Dish techs. Fast talking sales people, questionable installation techs and a web site that won't let me log into my account for the past three days due to "techinical difficulties" has got me spooked about my move from DirecTV to Dish. What did I get myself into...

and as I was initialing the various lines on the service agreement when I came upon the "tech showed me where the ground box is" line. Interestingly enough, the ground box was a wire wadded into a ball and stuffed into the back of the dish. I'd appreciate some comments from knowledgeable folks about this. Should I be very concerned, somewhat concerned, or only slightly concerned? Everything appears to be working correctly but I'm haunted by the remark of a local retailer who told me that most of his business comes from bad installations by Dish techs. Fast talking sales people, questionable installation techs and a web site that won't let me log into my account for the past three days due to "techinical difficulties" has got me spooked about my move from DirecTV to Dish. What did I get myself into...

I would expect the same ground connection for either dish. Unless the original was not installed correctly.

Quick update: I went back to Sam's Club to get my refund, but instead of getting a refund right away I was able to talk to the manager of the dish kiosk. He made some calls and said I will find out on Monday if Dish will be able/willing to add appropriate ground for me. I'll post more update as soon as available.

The installer should have just pounded a ground rod into the ground. Chances are he didn't bring a ground rod. You want the system grounded mainly for lightining as there are all low voltages at the dish. The system will work just fine ungrounded, but if lightining strikes the dish, you could be in big trouble.

rbinck,

No you can not just pound in a ground rod. It does not meet code, unless it is back bounded to the house electric using #6 copper wire. That is not covered under a basic install and the customer would have to pay extra for it. Also in most places that would require an electrition as you a changing the grounding of the structure.

If you were to just pound in a ground rod by it's self, it could potentialy be a very dangerous situation. If that ground rod was a better ground than the house electric someone could get electicuted.

Grounding the system has nothing to do with lightining. It is to disipate static charges. If lightining was to hit a dish it does not matter how well it is grounded, the dish will be toast.

Yes you can. It will meet code just fine. An antenna system is covered by the low voltage sections of the NEC, sec 810. Installs with a ground rod are done all of the time with a bonding jumper. Maybe we are saying the same thing.

You said it at the end "with a bonding jumper". You have to bond said rod back to the main electric. Not part of standard install. Also will probably require an electrician. Also this guy is in an apartment, doubt they are gonna allow all that so he can get dish installed.

... edited the original and got a mysterious double post

We used to do a static ground at the dish with a ground block and a 6 inch copper jumper to one of the mast bolts. Then we would run to the house and ground there, whether to the water pipes, common house ground, or a frame clamp on a mobile home. A good installer will find a way.

Apartments suck, sometimes almost better to not ground them at all (flame me all you want). Like it has been said, if lightning strikes, the dish is smoked no matter what. 90% of installs around here are not grounded, coax runs straight into the premises.

Blue Tech,

As an installer I would never do a system without a ground. If that house burns down because a system was not grounded, guess what an installer is gonna pay for it.

It's to bad that 90% of the installs in your area are done by techs that don't know better, or just don't care. They are taking a big risk that somebody could get hurt, or worse. Grounding is not something we do because we feel like it, it is required by law, and safety.

There is a great debate about grounding of satellite equipment going on within the installer community, specifically the Satellite Broadcasting and Communication Association. There are debates going on about the need specifically of the bonding requirement to the building ground and in a lot of installs a separate ground rod is used for static and lightining.

It is hard to envision what the scenerio would be that would cause a house to burn down due to the grounding not to be bonded to the electrical power ground vs a separate ground rod.

While it is true the NEC 810.21(E) requires the grounding conductor to be installed "in as straight a line as practicable from the mast or discharge unit to the grounding electrode", most installs will not permit a very straight line. We know the reason straight lines are important in grounding conductors is because when lighting tries to turn a corner a sharp radius can cause the lighting to "blow out" of the grounding conductor. What the acceptable radius is to prevent this condition is not covered. The thinking is that the section was written for tower installation and is actually too strict to a fault for residential installs. The reasoning is this: On commercial tower installs, the purpose of the electrical power is to support the tower equipment, not the other way around like it is for residential antennas. Therefore on transmitter towers it is part of the design to locate the power service according to where the grounding array is located. In residential and apartment installs, quite often the prewire for satellite equipment or the nearest building ground is located a far distance from the dish or antenna. Now running the grounding conductor to the building ground point will most certianly violate the "in as straight a line as practicable from the mast or discharge unit to the grounding electrode" requirement of 810.20(E). Further, there has not been any proof that a separate ground rod would cause any problems that have been described. The Satellite Broadcasting and Communication Association is rumored to be working on an updated recommendation to the NFPA for the next NEC release.

Meanwhile what Nightlife1970 says is true and it is estimated the 90% of the installs are not grounded in strict accordance with the NEC. That in itself says the NEC is too narrow in this case as there is not an epidemic of problems with problems due to satellite installs.

Grounding is not something we do because we feel like it, it is required by law, and safety.

Oh yes, I am very well aware... I installed for quite a while for High Power Technical Services out of Louisville KY, they are responsible for about half the state for DishNet. We had to take digital photos of all the work, so there was no skimping.

The worst installs I see here are the other companies, alot of these firms are working the guys too hard on a piece-work pay scale. If they wanna put food on the table, they have to turn out 5 installs a day, doesnt matter if they are 4 Receiver new connects.

In our area, Dish contracts with a major communication/electronics custom installer. The guys are real pros. They are fast, knowledgeable, and professional.
I watched the tech on the Voom antenna, and he explained everything he was doing as he went along. When one of the dishes was buzzing at 72 signal strength, he said that's just not good enough.
Ran up the ladder, did a couple more tweaks, and the signal jumped to 87
He called Dish on the spot, got my signature, and was gone in a flash.
I'm sure they are taking some business away from some little guys, but in some 8 years of having Dish, I've never had a problem with 4 different installs and/or changes.

I have an update to post finally:

Dish said that they would not do the install at all. They said that they could add additional grounding, but they wouldn't because they are afraid of liability. They told be to contact a local installer to see if any of them would do it. (I find that very funny, by the way) Anyhow, the first shop I called said that they could do it no problem. So I'll have my Speed channel so I can watch Formula One racing, and I'll have some HD cannels finally. woot

Good luck with that. Sounds like you found an installer who does not care what quality of work he does.

Good luck with that. Sounds like you found an installer who does not care what quality of work he does.

That's not the case at all. This installer assured me that everything will be done according to code, including the ground. The reason I am having this installer do the work is that he is actually willing to install a proper ground. The Dish Network rep said that Dish themselves were able to install the ground, they just wouldn't. They're too afraid of a liability. Just because an installer is willing to do the work doesn't mean he doesn't care about the quality.

So he is gonna change the ground on a rental property? Just let us know when he pounds in an 8' ground rod and bonds it back to the electrical ground of the building with #6 copper wire.

How much did he quote you to do this custom work?

So he is gonna change the ground on a rental property? Just let us know when he pounds in an 8' ground rod and bonds it back to the electrical ground of the building with #6 copper wire.

How much did he quote you to do this custom work?

The main ground in buildings here (and I imagine everywhere else) is a copper rod under the building connected to the rest of the main breaker box and plumbing via 14 gauge copper wiring (I just finished rewiring a portion of a house, so I am very aware of how it is done). Now, whether the dish is grounded to that ground rod under the building or a seperate one outside matters little to me. It is fundamentally the same. Besides, if there is a lightening strike or some other large electrical charge reaching the dish, it really won't matter how it is grounded, the thing will fry. Of course, the 15 foot tall lamp post in front of my patio will attract lightening long before my three foot tall dish will.

Just out of curiosity, why are you so interested in how this install is done? It sounds like you don't want me to have a dish. :confused:

Suomi,

Quite the opposite I would love for you to have dish. What I don't want you to have is the potentially life threating Dish grounding. I am also suprised that a local retailer would agree to do this without giving you a quote on it. This type of thing is not part of a standard install, most retailers would charge for it.

The NEC code for a ground rod to be used on a Dish system (any where in the USA ) is an 8' ground rod bonded back to the main electrical ground with #6 wire. Most areas would require an electrician to do this or verify that it was done correctly. ( I am suprised the apartment management would just let anybody do this as well)

This statement is what scares me Now, whether the dish is grounded to that ground rod under the building or a seperate one outside matters little to me. It is fundamentally the same

They are not the same, and it could be a fatal setup. With a seperate ground rod for the dish, you could create a situation where the Dish ground is better than the house ground. It will also cause ground loop problems if you hook up a stereo system.

Again grounding has nothing to do with lighting. If lighting hits a dish it don't matter if it is grounded or not. The dish will be fried and so will anything connected to it.

So I hope he does it right, and you will be Dishing so :)

The apartment management don't seem to care how it's set up. I went to them the first time the Dish installer declined to do the install. They said to go to a different installer. Also, they didn't care if it was grounded or not (of the many dishes I've seen around the complex, none look to be grounded at all).

Could you explain what type of issues could occur from a "ground loop problem?" And how could a seperate ground be "fatal?" I can understand how it could theorhetically screw up a circuit, but I can't imagine how an injury could come from it. (I like wiring DC circuits moreso that AC circuits. The grounding is so much easier. I grew up working on cars, so DC is what I learned first.)

Edit: Something occurred to me after posting this: What exactly is the purpose of grounding the dish itself? The box is grounded right? And the dish ground has nothing to do with lightning? Why is the dish ground even there?

I think that if the installer can't prove that he is installing a proper ground that I will have the apartment management provide ground. This would make sense since they were supposed to give me an apartment that was suitable for a dish. That was part of my agreement when I signed my lease. Arg, I'm getting worked up into a frenzy waiting to see what this installer is going to do on Tuesday.

Ok on how a seperate ground could be fatal.

Let's say you were holding an electrical appliance such as a sweeper. This sweeper has a bad ground on it, though you never notice the sweeper works fine. Now lets say you have that seperate ground rod that is not tied into the buildings ground. You touch the receiver and the sweeper at the same time and now you have formed a ground for the sweeper through the receiver. Because the ground rod is not tied into the building ground you can't trip the breaker...... you get the idea

It's a small possibility but it could happen.

Now with a seperate ground rod ground loops a caused by different ground potentials. This will cause a 60Hz hum in your audio system.

Ok on how a seperate ground could be fatal.

Let's say you were holding an electrical appliance such as a sweeper. This sweeper has a bad ground on it, though you never notice the sweeper works fine. Now lets say you have that seperate ground rod that is not tied into the buildings ground. You touch the receiver and the sweeper at the same time and now you have formed a ground for the sweeper through the receiver. Because the ground rod is not tied into the building ground you can't trip the breaker...... you get the idea

It's a small possibility but it could happen.

Not trying to disagree, but in this example I have a question: If the sweeper had a bad ground, and I touched something that was grounded only through the building ground, wouldn't the possibility of electric shock still be there?

As for grounding the dish: The air conditioner units are grounded on the other side of my door, so I'll just have to route a ground wire over the door somehow. I'm sure I can work it out with the apartment management.

Well yes it could, but then you would have a breaker that would be able to sense that a fault was happening and open the curiut. With the seperate ground rod it can't sense the fault.

That's curious. If we were talking about a ground fault breaker, it senses the difference in current going out the hot vs the current in the neutral. If there is any current that does not come back through the neutral, such as through a person to earth ground, the breaker trips on ground fault down at the millamp level. It would not matter how or which ground rod the path took. That's why ground fault breakers are required outside and within reach of plumbing fixtures which can make a ground, like in the kitchen and bathroom.

Now standard breakers would require the current to reach the instaneous current level or about 30 amps for a 20 amp breaker (depending on ambient temperture for most of today's breakers) which the scenerio given would probably not allow for if the current has to go through a person.

rbinck,

I was trying to write this in simplest terms. It would take several pages of typing to explain how it all works, as you well know.

Anyway you want to debate it does not matter. Code is written that way for a reason. Although the reason may be a small chance, it could happen.

It's not that big of a deal, if you want to take the chance of killing someone. :D

On the other hand, if you WANT to kill someone, it's not likely to be the best choice if you want to be expedient about it.

Here's a run down of the permissible grounding practices. Does not seem like a major challenge to a knowledgeable technician.

http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Grounding.htm

I was not discussing the code. It is what it is. The example given was wrong. Grounding per code would not cause a fault to be detected with a standard breaker protecting anyone from shock in the example given. And if the thought was using a ground fault breaker, it will detect a ground fault no matter how the equipment is grounded. The only true safe way to protect people from shock is to put ground fault breakers on every branch circuit. No amount of grounding schemes will protect people from shock. The second best way is if every electrical device were to be double insulated like hand tools. Not too practical for a washing machine.

The reason for grounding to meet the NEC is it is the law in most places, period. This is what is required and that's that. It used to be that everything electrical in a hazardous class 1, Division 1 location had to be enclosed in explosion proof enclosures, period. That was until intrensically safe equipment came along and the NEC was amended to accomodate the use of such equipment without the need of explosion proof enclosures. Just because the NEC says something does not necessarily mean there is a sound reason behind it. They will always take the route of ultra saftey. That is why it is amended so often.