Pre-Amp Noise Testing

I was wondering why all the experts on this forum were giving advise on getting a low noise pre-amp but not really explaining why...It was if this was a car web site and all the experts were suggesting that you get a blue car but not offering any reasons why, now if they were saying that studies show that blue cars don't break down as much as other colored cars that would make sense. anyway back to pre-amps and noise, sense April 2009 I have been using a RS 30 db gain pre-amp with a db noise of 7-8 with marginal success. so I decide that I would try a low noise pre-amp with as close to as much gain as I am currently using. I ended up with a (nothing fancy) Winegard 4800 28 db gain and 2.7 db noise, the best amp on the market was a CM that offered 2.0 db noise, so 2.7 was close enough. What ever noise did or didn't do I now had a amp that at least cut out 2/3 of the noise. Testing this amp over the last several days I have concluded that a lower noise pre-amp has a better chance of holding a signal without pixilating, if I have at least 17% of the signal I can watch tv with out any cut-outs/pixilation just pure tv just like I was hooked up to a dish, once the signal gets below 17% it starts breaking up etc..doing this test using the RS pre-amp I never was able to get a solid signal below 20+%. So I have concluded that a lower noise pre-amp will give the owner a better chance of reciving and veiwing tv stations that are not coming in very strongly.

Of course I could be totally way off base :rolleyes:


Mike

No, a low noise pre-amp only allows a cleaner signal to come through the amp without affecting it. It won't make your signal stronger at all.

Back to your car analogy. A 0.5 micron oil filter vs. a 3 micron oil filter. Nobody would tell you that the 0.5 lets less dirt through, they would assume that you could figure that much out.

A pre-amp sets the noise floor for the distribution system. NF on tv tuners range from 5 to 10 dB while NF on quality pre-amps range from 1 to 3 dB. A low noise pre-amp (assuming no overload conditions) will improve your signal at the tv by two ways: a) increase signal due to lower NF for the pre-amp than for tv tuner and b) amplification covers distribution losses through splitters and cable runs.

Let's use a hypothetical example: assume 3 dB NF on pre amp, 5 dB NF on tv tuner and 100 ft of rg6. The distribution losses in this case would be ~6 dB and the difference between NF is 2 dB. Adding a pre-amp in this case would increase the signal to the tv by 8 dB (6dB distribution loss + 2dB difference in noise factor).

The net effect of adding 8 dB will vary depending on the situation. With moderate to strong signals, all that changes is the signal strength reading from the tv tuner. With weak signals, the user may go from dropouts to consistent, stable reception.

No, a low noise pre-amp only allows a cleaner signal to come through the amp without affecting it. It won't make your signal stronger at all.

EXACTLY!
Think of it as Quantity -vs- Quality...

You're trying to get a signal to the tuner. You're antenna has collected enough signal to put it, let's say 10dB above the noise floor. Now say you have 10dB loss in the rest of your system, including cable, splitters, etc. Obviously you need an amp.

If you add an amp which has for instance, 30dB of gain but 8dB of noise you're not in too good a shape - you have Quantity but no Quality, in that your final signal will have much power when overcoming only 10dB of system loss but will be only 2dB above the noise floor. Throw in some atmospheric anomalies and your signal has fallen below that noise floor...

Replace with an amp which has only 12dB of gain and 3dB of noise and you're in much better shape - 12dB more than overcomes your system losses of 10dB and your signal is still 7dB above the noise floor.
[EDIT: And also able to overcome the noise introduced by your tuner - Hi Rick!:)]

Make sense?

To further illustrate Hooper's example (hi Hooper!), assume 20 dB signal at antenna, 8 dB NF for pre-amp one, 3 dB NF for pre-amp two, 10 dB distribution loss, 5 dB tuner loss.

What is received signal with no pre-amp?

Signal after balun +20 dB
Distribution loss -10 dB
Tuner NF -5 dB
Signal = +5 dB

What is the signal level with a high noise pre-amp?

Signal after balun +20 dB
Pre-amp NF -8 dB
Signal = +12 dB


What is the signal level with a low noise pre-amp?

Signal after balun +20 dB
Pre amp NF -3 dB
Signal = +17 dB

Using a low noise pre-amp (versus no amp) increased the tv signal by 12 dB through covering the distribution losses and lower NF for the pre-amp. Furthermore, using a low noise pre-amp provided an additional 5 dB of signal to the tv compared to the high noise pre-amp. A low noise pre-amp clearly gives you more bang for the buck than the high noise pre-amps! :)

When you start out with a crappy signal and then you butt it into a crappy wire and then you run it through a crappy amplifier, nothing but crap is going to come out of the other end.

Actually, if you had a signal that was ok and you needed 10 db of gain to over come the loss in the wire and you had a pre amp with 12 db of gain and 3 db of noise, you will still have a loss of 1 db because 12 - 3 = 9 and you needed 10 to over come the loss in the wire from the antenna to the television by way of say maybe a splitter that had 3 db of loss and 100 ft of wire that had 7 db of loss at 700 Mhz.

Your signal analysis is not correct in the fact that there is no set amount of signal for your signal strength meter. Not all tuners are the same and so the number you give us for your signal strength has no meaning to us. Just as two tuners of the same manufacturer could have the same amount of signal coming into them, yet shows a different reading for the amount of signal that it see's.

That is one reason why I like the Channel Master CM 7000 box.

I have quite a few of them and they do not loose the signal until they get down around 15% and usually when a signal gets that low, there is so much flutter that it doesn't matter anyways.

With a digital signal, you can loose 80% of the signal and still have a good signal - in terms of picture and sound quality. In the old days, with analog, when the signal degraded, you still had some sound and a snowy picture, but you could still watch it as long as it came in.

With the digital signal, it is all or nothing. Either you have a cinema quality picture and sound, or you have pixelation or you have nothing at all.

When you start out with a crappy signal and then you butt it into a crappy wire and then you run it through a crappy amplifier, nothing but crap is going to come out of the other end.

Actually, if you had a signal that was ok and you needed 10 db of gain to over come the loss in the wire and you had a pre amp with 12 db of gain and 3 db of noise, you will still have a loss of 1 db because 12 - 3 = 9 and you needed 10 to over come the loss in the wire from the antenna to the television by way of say maybe a splitter that had 3 db of loss and 100 ft of wire that had 7 db of loss at 700 Mhz.

Your signal analysis is not correct in the fact that there is no set amount of signal for your signal strength meter. Not all tuners are the same and so the number you give us for your signal strength has no meaning to us. Just as two tuners of the same manufacturer could have the same amount of signal coming into them, yet shows a different reading for the amount of signal that it see's.

That is one reason why I like the Channel Master CM 7000 box.

I have quite a few of them and they do not loose the signal until they get down around 15% and usually when a signal gets that low, there is so much flutter that it doesn't matter anyways.

With a digital signal, you can loose 80% of the signal and still have a good signal - in terms of picture and sound quality. In the old days, with analog, when the signal degraded, you still had some sound and a snowy picture, but you could still watch it as long as it came in.

With the digital signal, it is all or nothing. Either you have a cinema quality picture and sound, or you have pixelation or you have nothing at all.

Anytime you amplify noise, you raise the signal noise floor.

If you have a amplifier that has 7 db of noise, it is a pretty crappy amplifier. Might I suggest that you tape a dollar bill on it and give it to the garbageman and tell him - here I just gave you something.

Truthfully I don't know which would be worth more, the dollar bill or the crappy amplifier!

I have a slightly different take here.

We are simply testing side by side, a RS shack preamp with 30 DB gain and 7.5 db noise vs a winegard with 28 DB gain and only 2.7 DB gain.
( all other variables such as antenna choice, coax, splitters, and all else drop out as factors because they are held as constants. )

Maybe over simplistically, we can do the math as:
real radio shack gain =30-7.5=22.5 DB
real winegard gain= 28-2.7=25.3 DB

And then say the winegard offers the better gain by 2.8 DB. And sure enough, our OP reports his signal meter also calibrated in DB's shows a basic 3 DB improvement in what is a usable signal.

But to say the radio shack is junk and the winegard is gold is a mistake. Because our OP, small engine has seen a resultant improvement because he is at the deep fringe of reception due to his location.

And I am fairly confident that I could use either amp and not see any difference at all in terms of real world results. Its all very situational and depends on location, location, and location.

NMT,

The gain difference between your example pre-amps is not important (as long as both cover distribution losses). Received signal at the tv increases by almost 5 dB with the Winegard over the Rat Shack. This large difference in received signal will show a nice increase in % signal strength from the tv tuner. Since costs are almost the same, it certainly makes sense to purchase a low noise pre-amp.

Anecdotal events don't always work as good predictors.

I did many amp swaps at several locations. Used amps from as high as a 4 dB noise rating down to .6 dB noise rating. In my case, there was hardly any difference. Fringe channels that pixelated with high-noise amps did the same with low-noise. The one common denominator I found was that higher gain amps sometimes worked better - even with a higher noise rating. In some cases, it made the difference of being able to view a certain channel, or not.

Does it always work that way? I doubt it. Too many variables, including some amps out-of-the-box might not perform as advertised.

I have a slightly different take here.

We are simply testing side by side, a RS shack preamp with 30 DB gain and 7.5 db noise vs a winegard with 28 DB gain and only 2.7 DB noise figure.
( all other variables such as antenna choice, coax, splitters, and all else drop out as factors because they are held as constants. )

Maybe over simplistically, we can do the math as:
real radio shack gain =30-7.5=22.5 DB
real winegard gain= 28-2.7=25.3 DB

And then say the winegard offers the better gain by 2.8 DB. And sure enough, our OP reports his signal meter also calibrated in DB's shows a basic 3 DB improvement in what is a usable signal.

The best way to calculate system noise figure is to use the Friis equation. http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/cascadeanalysis.cfm

The problem with the observations is that noise figure specs and actual noise figure may be off by several db, especially in the case of the Radio Shack preamp. The loose spec means that an amp that works well for Small Engine may not work as well for anyone else.

I have been using a RS 30 db gain pre-amp with a db noise of 7-8 with marginal success.

I'm curious about what model amp you were using? I didn't know that Radio Shack sold one with that poor a rating anymore.

Some older models from Radio Shack were known for testing much worse then adverstised.

On the other hand, my son just tested a new Winegard AP-8275 and it tested dead-on, as adverstised.

As I understand it, once the noise going to your TV exceeds the noise-rating of the TV tuner itself, you get trouble. Many modern digital TV tuners operate with a noise factor of around 10 dB. So, if your amp really was making 7 dB of noise or more, along with any other problems - seems it might do considerably worse than an amp with a few Dbs lower noise rating.

This is gonna be off the wall. :D

Lets say your signal is like flying a hot air balloon.
And the ground represents the noise floor.
You start out at some given height - the signal's NM at the antenna.
The distance you need to travel is the losses in the system. i.e. cable, splitters, etc.
Without fuel as you travel along you naturally lose altitude.
If you touch down early you are done, and did not make your destination... the tuner.

So you add a tank of gas (the amp) which doesn't actually lift you any higher, and in fact even drops your altitude a little. (the extra weight pulling you down is the noise the amp introduces) But this fuel enables you to travel further, at a slower rate of descent.

And so you can now reach your destination without crashing...

Actually, if you had a signal that was ok and you needed 10 db of gain to over come the loss in the wire and you had a pre amp with 12 db of gain and 3 db of noise, you will still have a loss of 1 db because 12 - 3 = 9 and you needed 10 to over come the loss...

That would depend on how high above the noise floor your original "OK" signal was...
If you started with a signal at +10dB above the noise floor then you would have no problem, and still have a signal at +7dB above the noise floor, with 2dB of power to spare at the tuner. (Which is essentially superfluous)
If OTOH you started with a signal of only +3dB you would be in trouble, and would need yet a lower noise amp to receive the signal. (But not necessarily one with any more gain.)


If you have a amplifier that has 7 db of noise, it is a pretty crappy amplifier. Might I suggest that you tape a dollar bill on it and give it to the garbageman and tell him - here I just gave you something.

Truthfully I don't know which would be worth more, the dollar bill or the crappy amplifier!

And I agree with NMT here. Obviously the deeper fringe you are, the lower your signals are above the noise floor, and the more important the NF of an amp becomes. IOW, if you're close in & have strong signals & a lossy distribution system - a cheap high gain, high noise amp may well work fine for you.

What enables you to receive a signal is that it remain above the noise floor.
When you add an amp it is going to amplify the noise it receives along with the incident signal, and also add it's own noise contribution, thus effectively lowering the noise floor margin. But the signal now has more power to overcome further losses in the system - as the newly raised noise is attenuated along with the incident signal, and the relationship is maintained - unless more noise is introduced.


Anytime you amplify noise, you raise the signal noise floor.

EXACTLY!
I thought you were always in the right camp on this one JB!

The best way to calculate system noise figure is to use the Friis equation. http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/cascadeanalysis.cfm

The problem with the observations is that noise figure specs and actual noise figure may be off by several db, especially in the case of the Radio Shack preamp. The loose spec means that an amp that works well for Small Engine may not work as well for anyone else.

Thanks for the link Tower Guy! Here's another calculator based on the Friis equation" http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=375668&postcount=1

Obviously the deeper fringe you are, the lower your signals are above the noise floor, and the more important the NF of an amp becomes.

I can stick a Wade VIP-307, or a Winegard HD8200 up 30' in the air, point in any direction, and not get a single channel without a preamp.

That is my working definition of a deep-fringe area and I can hook up just about any amp rated with a noise factor of 4 Db down to .6 db. Makes no difference in actual reception. Problematic channels remain, as do the good ones. I haven't tried any amps with higher noise ratings then 4 Db though.

Subsequently, at least in my deep fringe situation, by deductive reasoning, I deduce that 4 Db or lower makes little difference here.
That is, unless the amps are doing something totally different then as advertised, which I doubt. For that reason, as a very loose general rule-of-thumb, I'll adhere to the idea that incoming noise can't exceed tuner noise - until I hear something better that seems to work in the majority of situations.

I'm curious about what model amp you were using? I didn't know that Radio Shack sold one with that poor a rating anymore.

The RS amp I was working with (Before I returned it and bought an HDP-269) was the 15-1170, which is spec'd at 10dB gain & 7.5dB of noise.

Some older models from Radio Shack were known for testing much worse then adverstised.

That's a scary thought! :eek:

On the other hand, my son just tested a new Winegard AP-8275 and it tested dead-on, as adverstised.

What was the frequency response?

As I understand it, once the noise going to your TV exceeds the noise-rating of the TV tuner itself, you get trouble. Many modern digital TV tuners operate with a noise factor of around 10 dB. So, if your amp really was making 7 dB of noise or more, along with any other problems - seems it might do considerably worse than an amp with a few Dbs lower noise rating.

That may well be true. (I didn't realize they were that high though.)
Also, I was of the understanding you had to include the tuner's noise figure in total system losses to be overcome by the amp - less it comes out of the original NM figure as do all other losses when not using an amp.

Actually I was going to question Rick on this, as he didn't deduct the tuner's NF in his earlier example.
Well neither did I, but his reference reminded me to mention it.

Never mind.

Here's another visualization of Noise Figure and how everything ties together:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15700679

What was the frequency response?



Here are some charts my son sent me. He designs military antennas for an aerospace program. He got fooling around with his own TV and bought a Winegard HD8200 and AP-8275 preamp. He took the amp to work and did some tests. Here are the test charts he emailed me. Some of it is a bit too techincal for my tired eyes.
He sent me a pile of tests on amps, diplexers, attenuators, etc.

Also, his description of what he did:

"I placed markers on the gain trace for each of the TV channel frequency band edges.
VHF channels 1-6 are from 44-87.5MHz. The lowest gain I measured in that band was at the
upper edge—21dB, with peak in-band gain above 35dB.
VHF channels 7-13 are from 174-216MHZ. The lowest gain I measured for this band was about
30dB.
UHF channels 14-83 are from 470-890MHz. The lowest gain I measured for this band was about
20dB, though peak in-band gain was around 35dB.
So, if I were rating this amp, I would say it was good for 21dB gain (or better) in VHF, 20dB of
gain (or better) in UHF. They rate it at 29dB VHF and 28dB UHF. "

Actually I was going to question Rick on this, as he didn't deduct the tuner's NF in his earlier example.
Well neither did I, but his reference reminded me to mention it.

Actually, I did subtract tuner NF. See: http://www.highdefforum.com/956654-post5.html

Calculated NF using the Canadian spreadsheet that I mentioned earlier:

Assume 10 dB distribution loss (includes balun), 3 dB NF for low noise pre-amp, 8 dB NF for low noise pre-amp, 5 dB NF for tuner, 19 dB preamp gain, and 20 dB signal at antenna.

Situation 1 No preamp

Signal at antenna 20 dB
Cascaded loss -15.1 dB
Available signal = 4.9 dB

Situation 2 Low noise preamp

Signal at antenna 20 dB
Cascaded loss -3.8 dB
Available signal = 16.2 dB

Situation 3 High noise preamp

Signal at antenna 20 dB
Cascaded loss -8.3 dB
Available signal = 11.7 dB

Based on the Friis calculations, signal would be 4.5 dB higher with a low noise pre-amp compared to a high noise pre-amp. My earlier calculation showed 5 dB difference.... :D

Here's another visualization of Noise Figure and how everything ties together:

http://www./avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15700679

Excellent link! Wish we could sticky these graphs! :)

Maybe my eyes are tired also, 'cause all I can make out right now is the 3rd graph: 890MHz which appears to be the gain measurements.

He swept the entire frequency range from 10 MHz - 1.0 GHz

VHF-Low between markers 1 & 2
VHF-High between markers 3 & 4
UHF between markers 5 & 6

And as his description states, there's a tremendous variation within the bands of usage. And in UHF for example, the curve is opposite what you'd expect. (or prefer to have) 35dB at the low end and 20dB up at the high end, where you would need it most to overcome the higher loss in the cable at this freq.

But of course the main question is how can they spec it this high when it clearly doesn't achieve this min spec across the freq rge specified???

I knew you had deducted the tuner from the "no amp" example,
and I was [mistakenly] under the impression you had to add in the tuner noise even with an amp.

Where was I when this Friis calculation lesson was given?
Why wasn't I notified?!?!?! LOL

So the amp out front basically negates the noise created by the tuner.

In my M/W days I was in component manufacturing, so I wasn't exposed to overall system design where I would've needed to learn such things...

Not to mention that was over 12 years ago too. :D
I really do have to go rest my eyes tho.

Based on the Friis calculations, signal would be 4.5 dB higher with a low noise pre-amp compared to a high noise pre-amp. :D


Then why do I get results as follows? Note I've made these tests many times over the course of six months. I've tested all listed below with preamps - CM7777, AP-8275, Research Commincations 9262, and AntennaCraft 10G212.

All rated over 20 dB gain. The 9262 is rated ultra-low noise at .6 dB.
10G212 rated the highest noise at 3.5 dB.

Note - extreme fringe area - no channels available without an amp.
HD8200 and Wade VIP-307 cannot lock into a single channel when hooked direct to a TV on-site with no amp. With any of the amps I get over a dozen channels.

Situation #1: Winegard HD8200 hooked to CM7777 amp - to - 185 feet of RG6 coax - to - one-into-two diplexer - to two three-way coax switches - to two TVs.

Situation # 1B: Same except tested at the amp output at the antenna. (all equipment downstream eliminated). All amps listed swapped in and tested.

Situation #2: DB8 UHF antenna hooked to a Wade VIP-307 VHF antenna - hooked to dual input CM7777 amp -to - 225 feet RG6 coax - to line amp 24 dB gain/7 dB noise - to - 120 feet RG6 coax - to one-into-two diplexer - to two three-way coax switches - to two TVs.

Situation #2B: Same except UHF/VHF joiner used for single-input amps - all tested directly at the amp output at the antenna. (all equipment downstream eliminated) All amps listed swapped in and tested.

Situation #3: Pair of ganged XG91s joined by diplexer -to - VHF hi-band antenna - joined by UHF/VHF combiner - to - VHF low-band antenna - joined to other VHF antenna with low-hi-VHFcombiner - to input of Winegard AP-8275 amp - to - 375 feet of RG11 coax - to 24 dBgain /7 dB noise line amp - to - 120 feet RG6 coax - to one-into-two diplexer - to two three-way coax switches - to two TVs.

Situation #3B: Same but tested directly at the amp output at the antenna. (all equipment downstream eliminated) All amps listed swapped in and tested.

I'm not trying to start a tech argument here. This is what happens in my situation. Note that some UHF channels are "iffy" and come and go. All that are like that behave exactly the same - regardless of hi-noise or low-noise amps -and regardless if tested on-site, or at home using the long wire-runs, line-amps, etc.

The only observed slight gain has been with the higher-noise, higher gain amp (Antennacraft 10G212). I have two channels that . . . sometimes can only be locked into with the 10G212 amp -and even then, they come and go. If low noise was able to "make or break" a borderline-reception channel - why do I get these results?
The Research Commincations amp - rated at a 6/10ths dB noise factor - should be showing the slight gain - not the Antennacart rated at 3.5 dB gain. Seems the 30 dB gain is making the difference, regardless of the noise rating.

Reasearch Commications 9262 - 23 dB gain, .6 dB noise rating.

Channel Master CM7777 - 23 dB gain VHF, 26 dB gain UHF, 2.8 dB noise VHF, 2 dB noise UHF.

Winegard AP8275 - 29 dB gain VHF, 28 dB gain UHF, 2.9 dB noise VHF, 2.8 dB noise UHF.

. . . not the Antennacart rated at 3.5 dB gain. . .

Just correcting myself. I meant to type 3.5 dB noise, not gain.

The Antennacraft 10G212 is advertised as: 30 dB gain, 4 dB noise on VHF, and 3.5 dB noise on UHF. Has variable gain and indoors operated FM trap.

The new model that's taking its place is the 10G202. It is more expensive, has the variable gain control left out, and is rated 29 dB gain, 3 dB noise VHF, 2.6 dB noise UHF.

Then why do I get results as follows?
I'm not trying to start a tech argument here. This is what happens in my situation. Note that some UHF channels are "iffy" and come and go. All that are like that behave exactly the same - regardless of hi-noise or low-noise amps -and regardless if tested on-site, or at home using the long wire-runs, line-amps, etc.

The only observed slight gain has been with the higher-noise, higher gain amp (Antennacraft 10G212). I have two channels that . . . sometimes can only be locked into with the 10G212 amp -and even then, they come and go. If low noise was able to "make or break" a borderline-reception channel - why do I get these results?
The Research Commincations amp - rated at a 6/10ths dB noise factor - should be showing the slight gain - not the Antennacart rated at 3.5 dB gain. Seems the 30 dB gain is making the difference, regardless of the noise rating.

Hi jdemaris,

Pre-amp noise figure is only one factor in a multifactorial issue. The answer to your question can be found here (see posts around #640): http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=42426&highlight=cascaded+losses&page=43

As I review your test setups, total distribution losses exceed pre-amp gains. In your situation, pre-amp noise factor is far less important than pre-amp gain and distribution losses. All of your low noise pre-amps had lower gain than your high gain/high noise pre-amp. If you use the Friis cascaded NF spreadsheet, you will find larger cascaded NF's for the low noise pre-amps because distribution losses exceed pre-amp gain. Now, if you could find a similar high gain pre-amp with a low noise factor, then you would again see an advantage for a low NF pre amp.

***After playing with the calculator, my last statement is overstated. Low versus high pre amp NF does not matter much at all when distribution losses exceed pre-amp gain. Why? The calculator reverts to using the tv tuner NF (6 dB or whatever number one enters) rather than using pre-amp NF.****


HTH,

Rick

Then why do I get results as follows? Note I've made these tests many times over the course of six months. I've tested all listed below with preamps - CM7777, AP-8275, Research Commincations 9262, and AntennaCraft 10G212

Because the Friis equation by itself does not consider other noise sources such as black body radiation by the earth and galactic noise, it simply calculates how much noise is contributed by the electronics.

Here's a Friis calculator that also takes into account antenna noise temperature. http://www.satcom.co.uk/article.asp?article=23

The noise temperature of a TV antenna can be assumed to be 290 degrees Kelvin. (At 62.6 Fahrenheit) Yet, even this calculator does not consider galactic noise.

jdemaris,

Have you tried measuring margin to dropout with your setup? All you need is a set of pad attenuators. I have attached an example graph from testing my setup with a DIY antenna, Apex 502 converter box, 25 ft of cable, and an old analog tv. Note how linear signal strength on the Apex is with margin to dropout. Having these data makes it very easy to assess the impact of changing the reflector, changing antenna design, adding a pre-amp, etc. Each percentage unit increase in signal strength equates to +0.75 dB in margin.

HTH,

Rick