Difficulty picking an antenna for hilly suburb

Advice?
I posted this under cabling, but thought my antenna/reception issues belonged here. Pardon my capital letters.
My TVFOOL radar report is attached.
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GEOGRAPHICAL COORDINATES: 40.307699,-80.041827 antenna height: 32 ft (above ground level)

MY ARCHITECTURE: 10/28/9

GENERAL DESCRIPTION:
Am upgrading the existing cable wiring from RG59 to RG6 quadshield and adding more outlets. Also adding an OffTheAir (OTA) roof mounted antenna and related wiring to the same outlets. I want to leave the option to switch from cable to satellite service or diplex satellite service with OTA. The building is a 2 story brick and aluminum siding residence. There is a basement below the main house, an unfinished attic above the 2nd floor in the main house, and an unfinished attic above the 1st floor TV room (no basement) and attached 2 car garage. The front door faces east. The house sits on the south side of a 2 block hill. On the downhill side of the main house, the basement wall is brick and above ground, making the peak of the roof 4 stories from the ground (basement, 1st floor, 2nd floor, attic).
I have the most difficulty with the use of a preamp, amp, & splitters; in calculating dbs through the cabling versus optimal, max, & min; considering cable modem; power passing, optional satellite, etc.

PROPOSED HARDWARE:

ANTENNA: (QTY 1) DB8 -100 DEGREE MULTIDIRECTIONAL BEAM WIDTH, 70 MILES, HIGH GAIN UHF AND ENHANCED VHF, MAX GAIN 15.8 DB, 29”HX42”WX4”D. SOURCE: AFFORDABLEHDTV OR SOLIDSIGNAL.

PREAMPLIFIER: (QTY 0-1) ANTENNACRAFT 10G201 HIGH INPUT VHF/UHF PREAMP. SOURCE SUMMITSOURCE.

AMPLIFIER: (QTY 0-1) (DEPENDING ON CABLING PERFORMANCE) Channel Master 3410 Ultra Mini Distribution Multi-Media Drop Amplifier CM3410 Signal Distribution Amplifier TV RF Output Booster Amp Multimedia 5-42 / 54-1002 MHz Passive Return, Part # PCT-MA2-M (SOURCE: SUMMITSOURCE) WILL BE USED WITH THE BELOW SLAVER SPLITTER. ALTERNATIVELY, THE ELECTROLINE EDA-2800 8 PORT CABLE TV HDTV AMPLIFIER (SOURCE: AMAZON) WILL REPLACE THE SLAVE SPLITTER.

SPLITTERS: (QTY 2) EAGLE ASPEN’S 8-Way Splitter 2 GHz 2600 MHz DC Passing All Port Digital Satellite Eagle Aspen P7008AP 5 - 2600 MHz Cable CATV Off-Air Splitter Coaxial Cable UHF VHF Commercial Grade HDTV Antenna Signal, Part # P7008AP. SOURCE: SUMMITSOURCE.

CABLE: (QTY 1000 FT+) SKYLINE CABLE’S SINGLE RG6 SWEPT TESTED 3GHZ QUAD SHIELD SOLID COPPER. SOURCE: THECOAXCABLESTORE.

FASTENERS. (QTY 100) WHITE QUADSHIELD RG6 FASTENERS. (QTY 1+) ENTRY WALL GROMMETS. SOURCE: SUMMITSOURCE

TV OUTLETS: (QTY 9+) DUAL PORT: SHARED BY OTA AND CABLE OR FUTURE SATELLITE SERVICE. SOURCE: SUMMITSOURCE

A/B SWITCHES: (QTY 2+) AT EACH TV THAT NEEDS ONE. NOT NEEDED WITH DIGITAL CONVERTERS ON SOME TVS . E.G., Perfect PVAB95 A/B Switch Push Button Style High Isolation 90 dB 2-Way RF AB Switch 75 Ohm Video Selector Switch A B Switch Component Signal Coax Cable Dual Input, Part # PV-AB95. SOURCE: SUMMITSOURCE

GROUNDING: (QTY 30’) 10 GAUGE GREEN JACKET SOLID COPPER GROUND WIRE TO (QTY 1) 4.5’ COPPER CLAD HIGH CARBON STEEL GROUND ROD WITH (QTY 1) 4 RG6 PORT GROUND BLOCK. (QTY 100) WHITE 1/8” SCREW GROUND WIRE FASTENERS. SOURCE: SUMMITSOURCE

ANSWERS TO THE WEBSITE'S SUGGESTED QUESTIONS:

* The approximate length of your cable run(s)

DEPENDS ON USE OF STAR VS LOOP WIRING, WHICH I AM STILL DESIGNING, BUT WILL PROBABLY BE STAR FROM EACH SPLITTER. ONE SPLITTER (MASTER) WILL BE IN 3RD FLOOR ATTIC. ONE (SLAVE) WILL BE IN BASEMENT. AN AMPLIFIER MAY BE NEEDED FOR THE SLAVE SPLITTER, BUT IS NOT PLANNED. ADDITIONAL 2 TO 4-WAY SPLITTERS MAY BE USED FOR MULTIPLE OUTLETS ON SHARED WALLS OR IN THE SAME ROOMS, DEPENDING ON CABLE LENGTHS AND UNUSED SPLITTER PORTS. FURTHEST SET MAY BE UP TO 80 FEET (OR MORE) FROM ANTENNA. I ORDERED 1000 FT OF SKYLINE CABLE’S SINGLE RG6 SWEPT TESTED 3GHZ QUAD SHIELD SOLID COPPER. I MAY USE 2 EAGLE ASPEN’S 8-Way Splitter 2 GHz 2600 MHz DC Passing All Port Digital Satellite Eagle Aspen P7008AP 5 - 2600 MHz Cable CATV Off-Air Splitter Coaxial Cable UHF VHF Commercial Grade HDTV Antenna Signal, Part # P7008AP. THESE SPLITTERS WILL ALSO SUPPORT CABLE MODEMS, THOUGH THAT IS UNLIKELY FOR OTA OR SATELLITE. I WILL ADD TERMINATORS TO UNUSED SPLITTER PORTS. POWER IS AVAILABLE IN BASEMENT AND CAN ALSO BE ADDED IN 3RD FLOOR ATTIC FOR THE PREAMP, BUT WITH DC PASSING ON ALL PORTS, THE POWER INSERTION CAN BE DONE AT ANY OUTLET. CABLE SERVICE WILL BE REWIRED SIMILAR TO OTA TO THE SAME WALL OUTLETS. I SEE NO WAY TO MAKE CABLE AND OTA SHARE THE SAME CABLE AND DUAL RG6 WAS TOO EXPENSIVE, SO I WILL USE SEPARATE CABLES. THE WALL OUTLETS WILL HAVE AN RG6 PORT F TERMINAL FOR OverTheAir (OTA) AND ONE FOR CABLE.

* How many sets you are/intend on serving:

AT LEAST 9: 2ND FLOOR – 4, BASEMENT – 1, 1ST FLOOR – 4. (WIRING: 2ND FLOOR ACCESSIBLE FROM ATTIC, 1ST FLOOR ACCESSIBLE FROM BASEMENT AND TV ROOM IS ACCESSIBLE FROM ATTIC ABOVE GARAGE.) MAY ADD ADDITIONAL OUTLETS IN A FEW ROOMS TO ALLOW MOVING TVS. EXISTING CABLE SERVICE ENTERS BASEMENT. OTA WILL ENTER ATTIC ABOVE 2ND FLOOR.

* The model #'s of any existing antenna(s)

PLANNING ON USING A MULTIDIRECTIONAL (100 DEGREES) DB8 (UP TO 70 MILES) TO GET SEVERAL DIGITAL STATIONS THAT ARE 60+ MILES AWAY. DUE TO ANTENNA'S SIZE WIND IS A CONCERN. I AM GETTING MOST OF THE “GREEN” STATIONS WITH RABBIT EARS AND SEVERAL HOMEMADE INDOOR DIRECTIONAL BOWTIE ANTENNAS, BUT RECEPTION ON MANY CHANNELS IS OFF AND ON AT EACH TV AND FROM TV TO TV. CAN’T GET 2 LOCAL HIGH VHF STATIONS (8 AND 9). HAD CONSIDERED A DB4 ANTENNA, BUT IT MAY NOT PULL IN ENOUGH ADDITIONAL STATIONS OR IMPROVE RECEPTION ENOUGH TO MAKE THE INVESTMENT WORTHWHILE. CONSIDERED THE CHANNELMASTER CM4228, BUT IT HAS BEEN REPLACED BY THE 4228HD, WHICH HAS A DIFFERENT DESIGN FROM THE CM4228. THOUGH THE 4228HD IS SLIGHTLY LOWER PRICED THAN THE DB8, I HAVE READ ABOUT SERIOUS QUALITY CONTROL ISSUES DUE TO CHANNELMASTER OUTSOURCING MANUFACTURING TO CHINA. ALSO THE 4228’S RANGE IS 60 MILES, WHILE THE DB8 IS 70 MILES AND THE 4228 IS REPUTED TO BE DIRECTIONAL. WILL USE APPROXIMATELY 30 FEET OF 10 GAUGE GREEN COVERED SOLID COPPER GROUND WIRE TO A 4.5’ COPPER CLAD HIGH CARBON STEEL GROUND ROD WITH A 4 RG6 PORT GROUND BLOCK. AM UNSURE YET WHERE TO WHERE TO ROUTE GROUND WIRE. I REALIZE IT SHOULD TAKE THE MOST DIRECT ROUTE BETWEEN ANTENNA AND GROUND ROD. MY HOUSE IS BRICK ON BASEMENT AND 1ST FLOORS AND ALUMINUM SIDING, WHICH WON'T HOLD NAILS, ON 2ND FLOOR AND ATTIC. I MAY RUN THE GROUND WIRE DOWN THE FASCIA BOARD TO THE CORNER OF THE HOUSE AND THEN TO THE GROUND ROD. I DON’T KNOW HOW MANY FASTENERS TO USE, E.G., PER 10 FEET.

* The model #'s of any amplifiers you are using.

DUE TO NUMBER OF TV SETS, SPLITTER PORTS, AND CABLE RUNS, AM CONSIDERING AN ANTENNACRAFT 10G201 HIGH INPUT VHF/UHF PREAMP ON THE ANTENNA MAST DUE TO ITS LOW NOISE (3.0 VHF, 2.56 DB UHF), HIGH INPUT CAPACITY, AND 22DB UHF GAIN. WHILE THERE ARE MANY DISTANT AND MARGINAL STATIONS REQUIRING LOW NOISE AND SOLID AMPLIFICATION, THERE ARE SEVERAL STRONG STATIONS THAT MAY OVERLOAD A LOWER CAPACITY PREAMP? SIGNAL STRENGTH IN GENERAL VARIES CONSIDERABLY, REAL-TIME. GOING BY THE REAL CHANNEL NUMBERS, THERE MAY BE NO STATIONS OF INTEREST IN THE LOW VHF RANGE. NONE OF THE LOCAL REMAINING ANALOG STATIONS SHOW NETWORK AFFILIATIONS AND MAY BE SPECIAL PURPOSE STATIONS.

* Your specific geographic/environmental conditions. For instance:
Does your antenna aim point into a stand of Sequoia's, high voltage power lines, or a hill?

MY ATTENNA WILL BE AT THE SOURTHERNMOST PEAK OF THE ROOF OVER THE 3RD FLOOR ATTIC AND POINT AT A HILL (2/3RDS WAY UP FAR SIDE) BUT IT MAY BE HIGHEST HILL TOWARDS MOST TRANSMITTERS. THE INSIDE OF THE ATTIC ROOF MAY EVENTUALLY GET COVERED WITH FOIL TO REFLECT RADIANT SUMMER HEAT, SO AN ATTIC ANTENNA WAS NOT CONSIDERED.

Or are you on top of a hill?

2/3RDS OF THE WAY UP THE FAR SIDE FROM MOST OF THE USEFUL STATIONS.

Do you have close buildings taller than your antenna height between you and the transmitters?
SOME UPHILL HOUSES MAY INTERFERE WITH SOME STATIONS AND CAUSE ECHOS.

Or does your aim point you across a large body of water? NO

Long post and kind of drawn out, but let's see if I can decipher enough to get you started.

If you researched the gain of the antenna you are looking at, and compared that to the multipath issues you are probably going to face in a urban setting, you will acknowledge that the DB8 is not the best choice in your situation.

The other point is - you want to use one really good amplifier and not two or three amplifiers.

Your antenna is basically going to service one or two rooms, the ones you use the most, and usually what happens is when you live in a fringe area and connect too much wire and splitters and diplexers - you end up loosing most if not all of the signal in the wire.

So basically you can simplify your set up or you can pay the cable bill, but I do not believe that you are going to get enough signal to process it all through the house and expect to get everything in your TV fool plot.

Most everything in the green would come in with a set of amplified rabbit ears / loop UHF antenna outside of the house.

The stuff in the pink is either going to be too far away or too low powered to receive on a daily basis.

I would suggest that if you only wanted to get the main local channels that you purchase a 7698P winegard antenna and a distribution amplifier. No pre amplifier - because your signals are too close.

If you wanted to try for the stuff in the pink, you would need the 7698P and a Winegard AP 2870 pre amp.

Since there is signals 360* around your location, a antenna rotor is a must!

The bay type antenna would have a hard time seeing some channels with all the co channel interference from the other local channels in your area and the pre amp would just cause more problems then it would solve. A highly directional antenna is a must in your area.

Long post and kind of drawn out, but let's see if I can decipher enough to get you started.
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Long post and kind of drawn out, but let's see if I can decipher enough to get you started.


Can you spell I R O N Y?!

That is a very funny response!! Long post!! No way!!

...
* How many sets you are/intend on serving:

AT LEAST 9: 2ND FLOOR – 4, BASEMENT – 1, 1ST FLOOR – 4. (WIRING: 2ND FLOOR ACCESSIBLE FROM ATTIC, 1ST FLOOR ACCESSIBLE FROM BASEMENT AND TV ROOM IS ACCESSIBLE FROM ATTIC ABOVE GARAGE.) MAY ADD ADDITIONAL OUTLETS IN A FEW ROOMS TO ALLOW MOVING TVS. EXISTING CABLE SERVICE ENTERS BASEMENT. OTA WILL ENTER ATTIC ABOVE 2ND FLOOR.
...

That sounds like a need for an omni-directional antenna or several antennas and JoinTennas. A rotor may be out of the question if several people want to watch stations in different directions.

A question for the experts: Does the DB8 really have that 100˚ wide reception?

The point the poster was trying to make is that he engineered his system - as per someone else's advice. Buying nothing but the best, and wanting to install a whole house CATV system.

The drawbacks are that the amplifiers creates noise, and the more noise you inject into the system, the less signal you are going to have.

The local stations are local, but you are not going to get everything in his plot with one antenna and no antenna rotor.

What people decides to watch - is their choice and not mine. As you get older, the kids move away, hopefully, and you are left alone - or with your wife and you usually end up only watching one or two televisions at any one time anyways.

The quality of local programming on OTA television is unusually high right now and actually exceeds many programs offered on a basic Dish type system. So my opinion stands that a OTA antenna, that is directional will receive better then one that is a wide panel - which will receive what you want + what you don't want.

You wouldn't buy a Mack truck to go grocery shopping and to church, it would be too big and use too much fuel and be too hard to park. At the same time, you wouldn't pull a 10,000 GVR trailer with a Honda Accord. So it's all a compromise.

Use one good antenna, point it in the right direction and hope and pray that you will have a signal. it all goes back to my story of the WATM / WWCP transmitters. One could not broadcast into Altoona 10 miles away and the other could not broadcast into Johnstown 10 miles away because the mountain between them was taller then the transmitter.

I believe that he has signals way down into the VHF and the DB8 is not a VHF antenna.

. I want to leave the option to switch from cable to satellite service or diplex satellite service with OTA.
I have the most difficulty with the use of a preamp, amp, & splitters; in calculating dbs through the cabling versus optimal, max, & min; considering cable modem; power passing, optional satellite, etc.

ANTENNA: (QTY 1) DB8

PREAMPLIFIER: (QTY 0-1) ANTENNACRAFT 10G201

CABLE: (QTY 1000 FT+) SKYLINE CABLE’S SINGLE RG6 SWEPT TESTED 3GHZ QUAD SHIELD SOLID COPPER.



I can only imagine what it is like to live in an area with so many strong signals. Many of the stations I get have a negative 30 noise-margin. The lowest on your TV Fool report is a negative 13 - which is close to the best signal I get here.

A few comments.

When it comes to coax and UHF/VHF frequencies, RG6 with a copper-clad steel conductor has less signal loss than solid copper due to a radiation effect on the OD of the clad conduction. Pure copper is best for other things, but not TV cable runs.

In regard to your preamp - I have no idea if you even need one. But, if you want to buy an Atennacraft, you'd be better off with the 10G212 at $27. It's cheaper than the 10G201 and has the advantage of an adjustable gain-control and indoors FM switchable trap -so you can trim it down if the signal is too strong, and/or operate the trap. Yes, it has a slightly higher noise factor which won't mean much in your situation.

Also that first "preamp LNA" mounted at the antenna is the most critical when it comes to noise. Any extra line-amps you add down the road, won't matter much when it comes to noise-ratings as your TV sees it. To be very general, the LNA preamp is for signal boosting and the line amps are for making up for loss due to long wire runs and splitters/diplexers. I've had systems with one LNA and two line amps on a 1000 foot run of coax and they worked fine.

As others already mentioned, the DB8 is UHF only. It's a great UHF antenna, but if you also want some of the VHF available, you will need either two antennas, or one combo UHF/VHF antenna. Since you signals are so strong, you might not want the biggest antenna, since a smaller one will have less wind resistance and is apt to last longer if you live in a high-wind area. I don't know of any combo antennas that will recieve UHF as well as the DB8 - but since your signals are so strong anyway, I'm not sure if it matters. It really depends if you want to get every channel that is possible, or will be satisfied with a "mere" 30 or 40 like it's looks like come in strong in your area.

When it comes to switching between satellite and antennas (or antennas) the possibilities are almost endless. Simple AB, or ABC boxes, or remote controlled multiple input/output devices are available some with 8 inputs/1 output, or 1 input/8 outputs.

A question for the experts: Does the DB8 really have that 100˚ wide reception?

Not even close. Figure on a third or quarter of that. The BW varies with frequency so it is variable from somewhere around 20 to 35 degrees depending on channel. The higher the channel, the narrower it gets.

OTOH, the comments regarding the DB8's high-VHF reception are a bit too pessimistic. While the gain is not positive on those channels, with adequate signal margins, it may work anyway. While using an antenna that is resonant and efficient on those channels is far more predictable, the DB8 still manages to get high VHF out to medium ranges.

If you have a tolerance for experimentation, then it can save you a bit of cash and work should it be successful. If you just want to get it done and over with, then go with the purists' recommendations for a relatively sure thing.

Use of a pre-amp is not recommended for your location. Even it you selected the most overload resistant pre-amp out there and IT didn't overload, the combination of a high-gain antenna plus a preamp will likely yield signals that will overpower the front end of your receiver(s).

Do keep in mind that you cannot diplex an OTA signal onto a Directv cable if you are using the SWM-version systems, so run an extra cable dedicated to OTA if that might be in your future.

A question for the experts: Does the DB8 really have that 100˚ wide reception?

Nope.

The old DB-8 was about 40 degrees, the new one is pretty sorry, wilh its gain skewed toward high UHF channels which are no longer used.

...
The local stations are local, but you are not going to get everything in his plot with one antenna and no antenna rotor.

What people decides to watch - is their choice and not mine. As you get older, the kids move away, hopefully, and you are left alone - or with your wife and you usually end up only watching one or two televisions at any one time anyways.
...


JB if his home is anything like mine tho we have only 4 sets one is tuned to Peoria another to Decatur and a third will be on a Champaign station. I'm the man and this is what you will watch don't play here. We get 12 stations - 22 channels with 4 antennas and 8 JoinTennas.
No rotor.

Two of those are to kill the local tower 2.5 BLOCKS away.

I did not see anything that would seriously overload his system IF he used an omni with a preamp. Any extra must have channels could be had with a dedicated antenna and JoinTenna.

OK JB, firstly if our OP is turning his home into a rooming house, or a B&B it's none of our business - if he wants 9 TVs, he wants 9 TVs...

I would however rethink the idea of multiple outlet locations in each room, as this is causing to almost double the number of splits, and drop the signal that much further into the mud.

Secondly, IMO he has obviously done quite a bit of research, and seems to have somewhat of a grip a grip on his situation for the most part. I would also agree with 9 sets to service it's a one antenna installation, or 2 with A/B switches at most - a rotor really isn't practical. (EDIT: or as Sam suggests, with dedicated antennas & jointennas) I also tend to agree with him on the choice of the bowtie antenna for its somewhat wider beamwidth characteristics, and attempting to get everything from ~5 - 100 deg aim. However I'm not sure a DB-8 will pull in the VHF he has available to him.

lifedimension, you mention you have built a couple of DIY Bowtie antennas and have tried them indoors, and with your situation I would do the same, however...
My questions are:
1. Did you build to mclapp specs, as far as whisker length, bay spacing, not mounting elements directly to wood, etc.?
2. Are you skilled enough to have done a clean and accurate job with them?
3. Did you use a large reflector? (i.e. ~40"w x 36"h to achieve positive VHF gain)
4. Have you tried them outdoors & up high to see how they perform out in free air?

Reason I ask is because
A) A well built mclapp should outperform any of the currently available commercial bowties on UHF, and simply blow them away on VHF...
B) With your tvfool it looks like this may be a textbook case for one of these antennas, and
C) If you have built a decent version and it's not performing at your location then you may have severe multipath issues to deal with and any other bowtie design will fair no better. (Also, pay less attention to "Mileage Ratings" than to actual gain specs when comparing antennas.)

If you have gotten (or can get) acceptable results outdoors with your DIYs then it may just be a matter of rebuilding with withstanding the elements in mind to achieve your goals. This can certainly be done, but if you are not skilled enough to do it yourself there is now one of these antennas for sale:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Tune-A-Tenna-UHF-VHF-HDTV-TV-Antenna-USA-Channel-Master_W0QQitemZ180425396266QQcategoryZ149957QQcmd ZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSI C%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFI CS%252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26ps%3D63
While it does offer positive gain in VHF-High, the reflector screen it is shipped with is a bit on the small side, as far as optimizing for VHF is concerned, due to shipping constraints - but you could easily replace the stock screen with one of your own and get higher gain down in VHF-High 7-13. You can also modify the positioning of the elements/screen from a forward curve with tighter beamwidth to the opposite and get a wider beamwidth out of the antenna - also something you can try with your own H/M's BTW. (The price is apparently going up in less than 3 days from $39.95 to $49.95 + S/H.)

I would not use DC passing splitters, and simply put the power injector for the preamp in the attic, upstream of the 1st splitter. Why inject DC issues by placing it in your lower levels - what does that gain you? (And introduces the possibility of needing DC blocks later on...)

I have the most difficulty with the use of a preamp, amp, & splitters; in calculating dbs through the cabling versus optimal, max, & min
dB = 10Log (Power in / Power out)
So you are down -9.03dB on the outputs of an eight way + the insertion loss of the splitter itself.
As far as cable is concerned just figure max loss up in the highest UHF channel you're dealing with.
For the amp(s) use the min gain spec & max noise spec.
If you can keep the final resultant signal at ea TV at 5 - 7dB above the noise floor I would think you would have success.

One other question for those more experienced: In the real world, which preamps have a greater resistance to overload, the Atennacrafts mentioned or the Winegard HDP-269?

And Jim, Rick & happyguy - you got me laughing so hard I nearly choked to death!!! :D

The old DB-8 was about 40 degrees, the new one is pretty sorry, wilh its gain skewed toward high UHF channels which are no longer used.

The only thing that changed between the "old" and the "new" DB8 is the coax phasing harness was replaced by a PCB with two flat aluminum connecting bars. This new harness was deemed "more efficient".... The geometry of the antenna did not otherwise change.

FWIW, AD is working to rescale the bow-ties to the new US DTV spectrum (14-51). It's not as easy as it sounds....

The new phasing harness is the problem with the new DB-8, plus the problem with the elements being skewed toward higher channels, leaves it just as bad below ch 25 as the old DB-8 and worse than the old DB-8 above channel 30.

The new phasing harness is the problem with the new DB-8, plus the problem with the elements being skewed toward higher channels, leaves it just as bad below ch 25 as the old DB-8 and worse than the old DB-8 above channel 30.


I assume I've got a "new" DB8 since I bought it this summer and it has a pvc integral balun box. My most problematic channels are 29 and 50, and this "new" DB8 has done considerably better then the Winegard 9032 and the XG91. Can't say it works that way for everybody but certainly does for me - regardless of what anybody's gain chart shows. Also, unlike the 9032 and XG91, perfect aim has been much less critical. With the 9032 and XG91 I had to be pointed almost dead on with 5-10 degrees. Now, I've got enough "forgiveness" that I can often go between two channel directions-points that are 30-40 degrees apart and get both.

I started with teh 9032 because a TV broadcast engineer suggested it to me. I then tired the XG91 because of all the positive posts I've read on the Net and posted gain-charts. Then, just for the heck of it - I tried the DB8 and glad I did. If I'd relied on solely what I'd heard and read about it - I'd never have tried it. My area is deep-fringe with no line-of-sight to any transmitters.