Improving Signal with Tivo HD Dual Tuner

I've got a directional VHF/UHF antenna with an integrated 20 dB preamp mounted on my roof. I'm new to roof mounting and have relied on indoor antennas in the past. The coax run is 50 feet and the stations I'm trying to get are 20 miles away. I used antennaweb.org to figure out where to point and have a good line of sight to the horizon from the roof. I have the antenna pointing in the optimal direction for signal reception, so that's done.

I get all the major channels I want except for FOX, which drops below %50 signal strength every 20 or 30 seconds. Any ideas on how I can get the signal just a bit stronger? Should I be putting a distribution amplifier after the power injector since the Tivo has 2 tuners?

I will buy a better antenna and preamp if I have to. I have about $100 to spend. I've been thinking about the Channel Master 7777 and a decent directional antenna, but I don't want to overload the signal since I'm only 20 miles away from the towers and only have a 50 foot coax run.

Any suggestions on improving my current setup or purchasing a new one are appreciated!

Try giving us either your TVFool.com results or coordinates, because there is no way to make any sense out of your situation without that information.

At that distance, the problem might be multi-path, not weak signal.

Have you tried rotating the antenna slightly from side to side to see if that helps?

And a TVFool report would be very helpful.

Try giving us either your TVFool.com results or coordinates, because there is no way to make any sense out of your situation without that information.

Thanks for pointing me to that website. Very useful. Here's the TVFool.com results:

http://www.thunderscratch.com/radar-digital.png

I really only care about the channels at the top of the list in green. I'm trying to get better reception on channel 31.1 specifically.

At that distance, the problem might be multi-path, not weak signal.

Have you tried rotating the antenna slightly from side to side to see if that helps?

And a TVFool report would be very helpful.

I have tried a couple different angle adjustments for the antenna, but tonight I'll go out and adjust it while letting my wife tell me how it looks with the cell phone.

If nobody indicates otherwise I'll probably try putting in a distribution amplifier at the Tivo to make up for the fact that it splits the signal for the two tuners.

By the way, the antenna/preamp that I'm using is here (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10901&cs_id=1090102&p_id=4730&seq=1&format=2). It's only $23, has a small form factor, and seems to be doing okay. I'm guessing that some people in this forum have already discovered it though since many people use monoprice for cables.

I would be more inclined to invest my money in a more conventional antenna.

Small antennas like this tend to lean heavily on the amplifier to make up for the shortcomings of the antenna itself, and you really can't amplify what the antenna can't "see".

A conventional antenna that receives channels 7-51 for strong signals like you have should be less than $50 and shouldn't have to have an amplifier unless you split it more than 4 ways.

I would be more inclined to invest my money in a more conventional antenna.

Small antennas like this tend to lean heavily on the amplifier to make up for the shortcomings of the antenna itself, and you really can't amplify what the antenna can't "see".

A conventional antenna that receives channels 7-51 for strong signals like you have should be less than $50 and shouldn't have to have an amplifier unless you split it more than 4 ways.

Thanks for the info. I'll probably go with your suggestion and get a better UHF antenna on the roof. I didn't expect a distribution amp to do anything once I read that the Tivo HD has built in amps (but not the greatest tuners at dealing with noise).

After trying the bi-directional variable gain amp that radio shack sells I got no improvement in signal. I didn't really expect to, but it was worth a shot.

I'm going with the Antennas Direct ClearStream2 antenna since it has such a small form factor, but advertises good reception. It seems to be popular on Solid Signal. Hopefully I won't need an amplifier with this one.

Live and learn. Learning how to properly ground this antenna will be the next fun step in my quest towards high quality free TV. The cable companies need to learn how to offer a product that is worth what they charge!

Hi Fuzz54,

I checked your tvfool report and you have two high vhf channels (ch 10, NBC and ch 13 ABC). The C-2 has large negative gains on high vhf and likely will *not* acquire these two channels, see: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html IMO, you would be much better off with a Winegard 7694P or HBU-22 antenna.

HTH,

Rick

Hi Fuzz54,

I checked your tvfool report and you have two high vhf channels (ch 10, NBC and ch 13 ABC). The C-2 has large negative gains on high vhf and likely will *not* acquire these two channels, see: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html IMO, you would be much better off with a Winegard 7694P or HBU-22 antenna.

HTH,

Rick

My current antenna gets the VHF signals all the way down to 2 fine, but has problems with some UHF. Could I use a diplexer to combine the two antenna signals into something that works full spectrum? Beyond the fact that diplexers combine signals I don't know much about the pros and cons.

Purchase a UVSJ, see: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=UVSJ

Connect the current antenna to the VHF side and the c-2 to the UHF side. The downlead will have the full range of channels with VHF from the current antenna and UHF from the C-2.

Purchase a UVSJ, see: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=UVSJ

Connect the current antenna to the VHF side and the c-2 to the UHF side. The downlead will have the full range of channels with VHF from the current antenna and UHF from the C-2.

Just ordered the combiner. Thanks. I'm assuming it won't transmit any power injector current after the combiner up the the line if I use any preamps with this, but I don't think I'll need preamps.

Diplexers are used when you wish to connect a Dish type signal to a OTA antenna type signal, where you have both a receiver for the Dish and the regular television antenna tuner on one wire.

Diplexers are hogs - when it comes to loosing more then half of the signal inside of the Diplexer.

Unfortunately, the scruples of advertising goes out the window when it comes to a manufacturer telling you how much performance to expect out of their little antenna.

If you made a little antenna that was cheap that you knew every sucker in town would want to buy, because their wife doesn't want some big ugly antenna on their roof, and you know the homeowner doesn't want to spend any money, then you would advertise it to do everything from washing the dishes to feeding the cat.

The truth to the matter is - IDRick is right, you should have at a minimum, either a 7694 or a HBU 22 antenna and a antenna rotor and no pre amp to bag most all of those local channels.

Too many signals present is just as bad as no signals at all.

With UHF - if you shine the light to the north, the antenna cannot see very well it if you point it east or west. Trying to use the side of the antenna to pick up the signal doesn't always work.

Counting on front to back is just as crazy as trying to drive your car through the rear view mirror in reverse everyday to get to work.

You might back up for a mile or two before you hit something and end up spending more money on the repair bill then you would have spent if you took a taxi cab to work everyday.

With the right antenna and the right wire and the right rotor and the right height and good terminals on your wire, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to watch all the channels on your report in the green and the whole way in the pink down to WUTV with a good preamp. But I also believe that a pre amp for the most local stations would over load the tuner and cause more problems then it would solve.

It all comes down to listening to the advice that people gives you and putting up the right antenna.

JB, thanks for the info. I might be moving to one of the two antennas suggested if I can't get the current setup to work. I'll know this evening. I find it fairly exciting to be learning as I go. Even if this doesn't work and I try out a different setup, I've already learned 5 to 10 things going forwards that will be fairly valuable. You gotta start somewhere and spend a little time and money to get a wide range of knowledge. That's how I learned how to build computers. With occasional help from this forum I hope to be in the same spot with grabbing OTA signals in a year or two.

Hi Fuzz54,

I checked your tvfool report and you have two high vhf channels (ch 10, NBC and ch 13 ABC). The C-2 has large negative gains on high vhf and likely will *not* acquire these two channels, see: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html IMO, you would be much better off with a Winegard 7694P or HBU-22 antenna.

HTH,

Rick

Update: I put the C-2 antenna up and did manage to get channels 10 and 13 as well as the rest of the channels I wanted. I guess I'm getting lucky with 10 and 13. I'd like to get 8 in also, but like you pointed out, it's going to require a low VHF antenna combined into the signal. I'm also using a Winegard HDP-269 preamp, although I haven't tested without it yet to see what the effect is. I'm not getting signal overload as far as I can tell.

Interesting, thanks for reporting back fuzz54! Good luck!

Update: I put the C-2 antenna up and did manage to get channels 10 and 13 as well as the rest of the channels I wanted. I guess I'm getting lucky with 10 and 13. I'd like to get 8 in also, but like you pointed out, it's going to require a low VHF antenna combined into the signal. I'm also using a Winegard HDP-269 preamp, although I haven't tested without it yet to see what the effect is. I'm not getting signal overload as far as I can tell.

Update 2: I get all the channels I want from 2 to 49 with the C-2 antenna and the HDP-269 preamp. The C-2 does not seem to have problems with the low VHF as was stated. The only change I made to my setup was to remove my $20 monoprice antenna and combiner from the signal chain. Just the C-2 and the preamp and I'm getting all the channels I'm pointing at along with a couple from the back and sides. I'm psyched.

Hi Fuzz54,

Are you talking about WGRZ, a NBC affiliate? It's virtual channel is 2.1 but it's real channel number is 33 with makes it a UHF channel. Your C-2 is picking up two high vhf channels (WHEC, ch 10 and WHAM, ch 13).

I'm happy to hear that your antenna is working well for you! Thanks for the update!

Rick

IDRick,

Yeah, I'm getting the real and virtual channel ID's mixed up. Looks like the C2 antenna is picking up real channel 10 at the lowest. Thanks for pointing that out. So this antenna is good down to 10 at best it seems. Thankfully it looks like some of the local stations around me have real channels that don't match the virtuals or I'd need that low VHF antenna. This is all great because having 2 antennas on my roof was looking kind of ugly. Now it's manageable with the small form factor C2. Looking at my TVfool report shows only a couple channels below 10 in my area and they are all pretty far away. Seems like a good antenna for my area. Now I'm tempted to buy a second one and point 180 degrees to see what else I can pick up.

By the way, I agree with a previous post that a signal combiner drops down the signal strength for each combined antenna. There's no other way to explain why my C2 suddenly gets extra UHF channels once it is removed from the combiner.

Hi Fuzz54,

Which combiner did you use? the uvsj? According to solid signal, there is only a max insertion loss of 0.5 dB with a uvsj but a common 2-way splitter has a 3.7 dB insertion loss.

Thanks,

Rick

Rick,

I did use the uvsj. Removing it and the cheaper antenna is the only thing I changed. The preamp was used after the two antenna signals were combined. Then I put in the power injector for the preamp before going into the Tivo.

Perhaps I got a bad uvsj unit.

Fuzz