Listening mode "True HD" vs "Dolby Pro Logic IIx"

Hi, completely new to this... I have a 7.1 setting (Onkyo 6100 HT/PS3 Slim).

When playing 5.1 True HD Blue Rays, should I select in my receiver (listening modes) True HD (only 5 speakers will sound) or Dolby Pro Logic IIx (the 7 speakers will sound)?

Im not sure whether im sacrificing sound quality by selecting the Dolby Pro Logic IIx option to make all speakers sound.

Same regarding with DTS-HD Master Audio blue rays...

Thanks..

Definately not DPLII that is just 2 channel sudo surround. Lossless Dolby True HD or DTS HS-MA is the way to go. Not sure why it is only outputting 5.1 and not 7.1 other than many movies are 5.1 to my knowledge and very few 7.1. But I think it just fills simulates the other 2 channels if 5.1. So sounds like a possible settings issue.? I assume you have it set to Bitstream for your PS3.. What happens when you output PCM?

I have a Onkyo 606 and I have it set up on 7.1 Dolby Pro Logic IIz for everything that is not lossless. So DD, DD+, DTS, DTS EX, etc. get played through all 7 channels. For DTS-MA, TrueHD, or PCM I have it set up to play however it's encoded on the Blu-ray disc, which is usually 5.1, but there are a few 7.1 titles out there mainly from Lionsgate Films.

I have a Onkyo 606 and I have it set up on 7.1 Dolby Pro Logic IIz for everything that is not lossless. So DD, DD+, DTS, DTS EX, etc. get played through all 7 channels. For DTS-MA, TrueHD, or PCM I have it set up to play however it's encoded on the Blu-ray disc, which is usually 5.1, but there are a few 7.1 titles out there mainly from Lionsgate Films.

That's the way to do it correctly, so you can hear the best of the best...:D

That's the way to do it correctly, so you can hear the best of the best...:D

Wow, and I was just guessing when I set it up nearly a year ago. I am glad I got it right.:thumbsup:

If you have a 7.1 system, I'd recommend using PLIIx. It will matrix 5.1 to 7.1, producing stereo back channels and anchoring rear effects that might otherwise collapse for off center seats. There's no downside that I am aware of. Of course, if you don't like it, don't use it.

I have a Onkyo 606 and I have it set up on 7.1 Dolby Pro Logic IIz for everything that is not lossless. So DD, DD+, DTS, DTS EX, etc. get played through all 7 channels. For DTS-MA, TrueHD, or PCM I have it set up to play however it's encoded on the Blu-ray disc, which is usually 5.1, but there are a few 7.1 titles out there mainly from Lionsgate Films.I'm curious why you leave your rear channels silent with lossless but activate them for lossy. The mixes are the same with both types of codecs. Lossless merely improves the resolution.

I'm curious why you leave your rear channels silent with lossless but activate them for lossy. The mixes are the same with both types of codecs. Lossless merely improves the resolution.

Because with the lossless codecs I want to hear it exactly as intended by the director and so forth. Since it is already lossless there is no need to add the 2 rear channels. Besides there's currently only 151 (http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/search.php?keyword=&studio=&videocodec=&disc=&yearfrom=&yearto=&regioncoding=&audio=7.1&subtitles=&submit=Search&action=search) BDs that utilize 7.1 and many of them are junk titles.

Because with the lossless codecs I want to hear it exactly as intended by the director and so forth. Since it is already lossless there is no need to add the 2 rear channels.You lost me there. That's like saying Blus must be watched OAR while DVDs can be modified to fill a TV screen. If it's not OK to matrix rears for a dts-MA track, then it's not OK to do so for DTS either. Lossless is not about the number of channels. It's about resolution.

Also, you might want to tell DTS about your belief. DTS requires Panasonic, Pioneer, and Oppo players to output 5.1 as 7.1 on systems configured for 7.1. When those players do the decoding, you can't get 5.1 playback unless you reconfigure your system.

You lost me there. That's like saying Blus must be watched OAR while DVDs can be modified to fill a TV screen. If it's not OK to matrix rears for a dts-MA track, then it's not OK to do so for DTS either. Lossless is not about the number of channels. It's about resolution.

Also, you might want to tell DTS about your belief. DTS requires Panasonic, Pioneer, and Oppo players to output 5.1 as 7.1 on systems configured for 7.1. When those players do the decoding, you can't get 5.1 playback unless you reconfigure your system.

I think what I do makes perfect sense. I basically see no need to alter (matrix) a 5.1 lossless mix into a 7.1 mix.

I think what I do makes perfect sense. I basically see no need to alter (matrix) a 5.1 lossless mix into a 7.1 mix.Which, of course, is not responsive to anything I've said.

See here - http://www.highdefforum.com/speakers-surround-sound/101726-5-1-vs-7-1-debate-facts-opinion.html

Which, of course, is not responsive to anything I've said.

Sure it is. My personal preference is to leave 5.1 lossless audio mixes alone.

Sure it is. My personal preference is to leave 5.1 lossless audio mixes alone.

Which is what I would do as well.

I'm curious why you leave your rear channels silent with lossless but activate them for lossy. The mixes are the same with both types of codecs. Lossless merely improves the resolution.

I do nearly the same leaving 'lossy' formats on Neural THX 7.1 or Ultra2cinema but leave 'lossless' tracks as is. The reason I don't expand them all is I prefer the higher resolution opposed to two extra speakers. By remixing to 7.1 you lose the added resolution that lossless provides (by expanding them you downrez the sound to dd levels)

Also, you might want to tell DTS about your belief. DTS requires Panasonic, Pioneer, and Oppo players to output 5.1 as 7.1 on systems configured for 7.1. When those players do the decoding, you can't get 5.1 playback unless you reconfigure your system.
I can't speak for those brands but with my sony BDP if I let it decode DolbyTrueHD or DTS-MA If it is 5channel mix that is all I get no expansion to 7.1 (remember you often have to select the audio option in the disc menu - not all default to lossless sound.)

I do nearly the same leaving 'lossy' formats on Neural THX 7.1 or Ultra2cinema but leave 'lossless' tracks as is. The reason I don't expand them all is I prefer the higher resolution opposed to two extra speakers. By remixing to 7.1 you lose the added resolution that lossless provides (by expanding them you downrez the sound to dd levels)
That's not true. The resolution is not changed. PLIIx intelligently redistributes the surrounds to four channels instead of two. Where'd you get the idea that it downrezes a high resolution source?

I was told by tech support on the last receiver I owned that no current commercial technologies exist that can be applied to TrueHD or DTS_MA to expand DolbyTrueHD or DTS-MA to 7.1 at the 96/24 resolution they are encoded at. If you or someone else definitively know different I will certainly stand corrected.

Definately not DPLII that is just 2 channel sudo surround. Lossless Dolby True HD or DTS HS-MA is the way to go. Not sure why it is only outputting 5.1 and not 7.1 other than many movies are 5.1 to my knowledge and very few 7.1. But I think it just fills simulates the other 2 channels if 5.1. So sounds like a possible settings issue.? I assume you have it set to Bitstream for your PS3.. What happens when you output PCM?

Yes, Bitstream... I tried outputing PCM and still only 5 speakers sound.. but i think thats the way supposed to be..

Although I thought that by selecting DPLIIx the quality would be the same as true hd "lossless" but just expanding to the 2 back surround speakers...

I was told by tech support on the last receiver I owned that no current commercial technologies exist that can be applied to TrueHD or DTS_MA to expand DolbyTrueHD or DTS-MA to 7.1 at the 96/24 resolution they are encoded at. If you or someone else definitively know different I will certainly stand corrected.I've never heard that before and I am skeptical of CE tech support departments for that kind of information.

But, it is certainly true that the DSPs on some equipment are not always up to the processing demands of high resolution audio. Some AVRs, for example, cannot even apply PLIIx if they are doing the HD decoding themselves. But, that's a limitation of the specific equipment, not the technology.

Meanwhile, even if it happens, downconverting 96KHz to 48KHz is not the same as downconverting to DD resolution, which was your original claim. There are very few movies with 96KHz sampling rates to begin with. Most are mastered at 48KHz and that's all you get with lossless TrueHD and dts-MA.

I thought that by selecting DPLIIx the quality would be the same as true hd "lossless" but just expanding to the 2 back surround speakers...You thought right. :)

You thought right. :)

The point is: It's better to leave the lossless codecs unmolested and just to let them play as programmed.

The point is: It's better to leave the lossless codecs unmolested and just to let them play as programmed.I understand your preference and that's fine. But, that doesn't make it better.

Remember, I simply asked why you think it's OK/better to apply PLIIx with lossy 5.1 sources but not with lossless ones. You still haven't provided an explanation. Using PLIIx or other similar DSPs does nothing to improve the resolution of lossy sources and does nothing to degrade the resolution of lossless ones. The front sound stage is not affected at all. The two surround channels are modified to work with four speakers. Rear imaging gets anchored in actual speakers so that it works regardless of seating position.

This is similar to discussions about using PLII with stereo sources. Are you also saying it's OK to use PLII with a CD or an MP3, but not with a stereo SACD?

I was under the impression SACD is multichannel music not stereo, I still am not convinced that PLIIx etc. doesn't down rez your sound fidelity- If it didn't then why would you even need the new codecs and/or why the extra bandwidth that only hdmi can provide?

I was under the impression SACD is multichannel music not stereo, I still am not convinced that PLIIx etc. doesn't down rez your sound fidelity- If it didn't then why would you even need the new codecs and/or why the extra bandwidth that only hdmi can provide?SACD does both multichannel and stereo.

PLIIx is a DSP, a digital signal processor, not a compression codec. It serves a completely different function than codecs such as DD, DTS, their new losless cousins. Codecs are like zip files used to save space on discs. DSPs are applied in receivers to process PCM and alter the sound. They use matrix processing to intelligently expand the number of channels beyond what is recorded on the disc.

SACD does both multichannel and stereo.

PLIIx is a DSP, a digital signal processor, not a compression codec. It serves a completely different function than codecs such as DD, DTS, their new losless cousins. Codecs are like zip files used to save space on discs. DSPs are applied in receivers to process PCM and alter the sound. They use matrix processing to intelligently expand the number of channels beyond what is recorded on the disc.

So that means that your front three speakers (LCR) are still discrete while the four rears are matrixed, right?

So that means that your front three speakers (LCR) are still discrete while the four rears are matrixed, right?The surrounds and SW are also discrete when the source is 5.1. The rears are matrixed. The surrounds are modified with some elements being rerouted to the rears and levels being adjusted accordingly. The fronts and SW are not changed at all with 5.1 sources.

The surrounds and SW are also discrete when the source is 5.1. The rears are matrixed. The surrounds are modified with some elements being rerouted to the rears and levels being adjusted accordingly. The fronts and SW are not changed at all with 5.1 sources.

Then I guess the rear back surround speakers will remain matrixed until we see true 7.1 Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master Audio. When that will happen is anybodies guess, I do know there are just a handful of titles that do have 7.1 soundtracks.

Then I guess the rear back surround speakers will remain matrixed until we see true 7.1 Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master Audio. When that will happen is anybodies guess, I do know there are just a handful of titles that do have 7.1 soundtracks.There are more than 100 currently, according to blu-raystats.com.

If you are using the Oppo's analog outputs, then all dts-MA 5.1 tracks will be output to your processor as 7.1. Unfortunately, the Oppo does that by duplicating the surrounds to the rears instead of applying matrix processing. Oppos do that for analog, but not HDMI. Panasonics and Pioneers do it for both. It seems to be associated with players that have DTS-HD Master Audio Essential decoders instead of fully featured decoders.

There are more than 100 currently, according to blu-raystats.com.

If you are using the Oppo's analog outputs, then all dts-MA 5.1 tracks will be output to your processor as 7.1. Unfortunately, the Oppo does that by duplicating the surrounds to the rears instead of applying matrix processing. Oppos do that for analog, but not HDMI. Panasonics and Pioneers do it for both. It seems to be associated with players that have DTS-HD Master Audio Essential decoders instead of fully featured decoders.

So you are saying that the Oppo BDP-83 can't decode 7.1 channel Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master audio through HDMI?

So you are saying that the Oppo BDP-83 can't decode 7.1 channel Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master audio through HDMI?

No he is saying that it cannot do it through the analog outputs not the HDMI output.

For the record, I agree with BIslander here about matrixing the read surrounds with 5.1 lossless soundtracks. It will not change them to lossy by doing this but it will alter the sound stage some but that is better IMO, since if you are willing to do this for the lossy soundtracks then why not do it for the lossless also?

I have my Denon receiver apply PIIx to ALL soundtracks myself and i do not lose the lossless when I do this. I just get to use all the speakers ALL the time.

Give this a try HD Goofnut since you ARE using HDMI as the connection and your receiver can do this. If you will alter the lossy to utilize ALL the speakers it makes sense to do this with lossless also IMO, but the choice is yours.

But unless someone has proof that it reduces lossless to lossy then I would like to see such proof. I believe that customer service tech is wrong and didn't want to say he didn't know the answer which is par for the course with CS people over the phone.

I like having the greater surround stage I get with having a 7.1 system over a 5.1 system so why not use it for everything? I can still hear the difference in sound when I switch from the lossless to lossy soundtrack selections that offer both when I have the rears matrixed, so I know I am still getting lossless with the rears active all the time.

Does ANYONE know of ANY BD movies with 96KHz sampling rates that are more than only 2 channels? AFAIK ALL are mastered at 48KHz with lossless TrueHD and DTS-MA that is more than 2 channels.

So you are saying that the Oppo BDP-83 can't decode 7.1 channel Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master audio through HDMI?No. It does 7.1 decoding just fine. And all HDMI outputs work as you would expect.

This is a different matter and it only happens with the analog outputs. If you configure your player for 7.1, the Oppo will expand any 5.1 DTS track on Blu-ray to 7.1. It does that by duplicating the surrounds to the rears, which is not as sophisticated as using a matrix processor such as PLIIx. This is limited to DTS tracks on BD for output over analog. It does not happen with HDMI or with DTS tracks on DVD.

Oppo says this is a requirement from DTS. Panasonic and Pioneer players do the same for both analog and HDMI and also say they are required to do by DTS.

You can only get the original 5.1 output if you reconfigure the Oppo for 5.1 by turning off the rear speakers.

Does ANYONE know of ANY BD movies with 96KHz sampling rates that are more than only 2 channels? AFAIK ALL are mastered at 48KHz with lossless TrueHD and DTS-MA that is more than 2 channels. Akira - 192kHz
Chronos - 96kHz
Baraka - 96kHz
Nature's Journey - 96kHz (5.0, not 5.1)
There are half a dozen or so concerts that are 96kHz including Chris Botti (two of them), Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds, John Mayer, The Police Certifiable, and Queen Rock Montreal.

That is why I didn't know about them because i have no interest in those. :lol:

Thanks for the help guys seems you cant always trust CS reps. BTW I have the Dave Matthews/Tim Reynolds BD - It is awesome and at 96Khz but is TrueHD not DTS-MA

Akira - 192kHz
Chronos - 96kHz
Baraka - 96kHz
Nature's Journey - 96kHz (5.0, not 5.1)
There are half a dozen or so concerts that are 96kHz including Chris Botti (two of them), Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds, John Mayer, The Police Certifiable, and Queen Rock Montreal.

Are there really audible differences that we can actually hear with higher sampling rates? If so why aren't more soundtracks done in higher sampling rates like Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio?