Sony 350 bluray

HOW DO I SET MY SONY 350 ONTO BITSTREAM???????????:confused:

I posted this in the other thread already.

I beleve the 350 only does lossless via bitstream for HDMI. So according to page 44 of the manual, all you need to do is make sure the "Audio output priority" is set to HDMI and the "HDMI audio" is set to "Auto"..

HOW DO I SET MY SONY 350 ONTO BITSTREAM???????????:confused:

Is this a real question?

Shouldn't there be a simple PCM/Bitstream selection menu on the Sony?

These are the required settings for bitstream:

Audio Output Priority = HDMI
Audio (HDMI) = Auto
BD Audio = Direct

There is no specific PCM/Bitstream setting on this player. When BD Audio is set to Direct, the HDMI handshake between player and receiver determines whether the player decodes or bitstreams. If the AVR has the needed decoders, the player bitstreams. Otherwise it decodes and outputs PCM. When BD Audio is set to Mix, the player always decodes and mixes in secondary audio, when present.

Well, then, those are the specifics on the operation of the Sony; I am not familiar with their operation, but I assumed there was a simple PCM/Bitstream option for the different codecs...

Hope this helped the OP, who apparently was in a serious bind to get the answer on bitstreaming...

Apparently he also needs to have his Onkyo TX-SR605 set properly.

Chris

I know what both PCM and bitstream stand for, but which is used during Dolby Digital, DTS Master etc..

I know what both PCM and bitstream stand for, but which is used during Dolby Digital, DTS Master etc..

I am not sure I understand the question but as far as Blu-ray players are concerned selecting PCM means the player will decode whatever audio codec is played and output PCM, assuming the player has decoding capabilities. If bitstream is selected, the player will output the undecoded data and the attached audio processor will decode. Some early Blu-ray players can neither decode nor bitstream one or both of the lossless compressed codecs. All players can handle Lossless Uncompressed PCM.

DTS-HD MA is lossless and is just compressed PCM. Dolby TrueHD is lossless and uses MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing) also known as PPCM (Packed PCM) method to compress PCM. MLP is a proprietary compression method developed by Meridian Audio, Ltd. while DTS uses their own compression method. Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, and DTS variants other than MA are lossy methods of compression.

Chris

I am not sure I understand the question but as far as Blu-ray players are concerned selecting PCM means the player will decode whatever audio codec is played and output PCM, assuming the player has decoding capabilities. If bitstream is selected, the player will output the undecoded data and the attached audio processor will decode. Some early Blu-ray players can neither decode nor bitstream one or both of the lossless compressed codecs. All players can handle Lossless Uncompressed PCM.

DTS-HD MA is lossless and is just compressed PCM. Dolby TrueHD is lossless and uses MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing) also known as PPCM (Packed PCM) method to compress PCM. MLP is a proprietary compression method developed by Meridian Audio, Ltd. while DTS uses their own compression method. Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, and DTS variants other than MA are lossy methods of compression.

Chris

This make sense as with my old DVD player I would set to bitstream so that my Denon AV receiver would then decode/process Dolby Digital or DTS. When I get my Oppo BDP-83 player I will be using the 5.1 analog audio outputs therefore sending PCM through my 7.1 input on my AV receiver because it has already been decoded. Thanks for clearing that up. :)

I know what both PCM and bitstream stand for, but which is used during Dolby Digital, DTS Master etc..PCM is the digital format used for almost all home entertainment audio. CDs are recorded using PCM and movie soundtracks are mastered using PCM. But, PCM is a space hog. It takes up too much space, for example, for a 5.1 PCM soundtrack to fit on a movie film strip. So, companies like Dolby and DTS developed compression systems that zip up PCM to save space. All of the familiar codecs (DD 5.1, TrueHD, DTS, and dts-MA) are just different types of zip files. They cannot be "played" to produce sound. They must be decoded (unzipped) first, which turns them back into PCM.

When I get my Oppo BDP-83 player I will be using the 5.1 analog audio outputs therefore sending PCM through my 7.1 input on my AV receiver because it has already been decoded. Thanks for clearing that up.You're missing one step there. Yes, the Oppo will do the decoding of the compressed file back into PCM. Then, it will do the digital-analog conversion and send analog audio, not PCM, to your receiver. PCM is digital and cannot be sent over multichannel analog connections.

That's an important distinction because it means you will not be able to use your receiver for any of the usual processing it does - things like bass management, distance/timing adjustments, and room correction. That kind of processing is done while the audio is still PCM and the Oppo will need to handle those tasks prior to the digital-analog conversion. The Oppo does bass management and timing adjustments, but no EQ or room correction. (NOTE: The inability to process audio from the analog inputs is true for the vast majority of receivers, but not for all of them. A small number of rather pricey processors can redigitize analog audio, turning it back into PCM.)

One other footnote about analog audio: you will need to boost the subwoofer channel in your receiver or at the sub itself when using analog. LFE is recorded 10db lower than its proper playback level and is dropped another 5db when speakers are set to smalll in the player. With digital transmission, the software boosts the sub output on its own. With multichannel analog, the user needs to apply the boost himself.

I am not sure I understand the question but as far as Blu-ray players are concerned selecting PCM means the player will decode whatever audio codec is played and output PCM, assuming the player has decoding capabilities. If bitstream is selected, the player will output the undecoded data and the attached audio processor will decode. Some early Blu-ray players can neither decode nor bitstream one or both of the lossless compressed codecs. All players can handle Lossless Uncompressed PCM.

DTS-HD MA is lossless and is just compressed PCM. Dolby TrueHD is lossless and uses MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing) also known as PPCM (Packed PCM) method to compress PCM. MLP is a proprietary compression method developed by Meridian Audio, Ltd. while DTS uses their own compression method. Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, and DTS variants other than MA are lossy methods of compression.

Chris

But unless that player also has analog outputs or you have a HDMI receiver, you will only get stereo and not 5.1/7.1 sound output using optical or digital coaxial connections.

Thought it was important for people to understand this if they have an older receiver without HDMI inputs or a BD player without 5.1/7.1 analog outputs.

PCM is the digital format used for almost all home entertainment audio. CDs are recorded using PCM and movie soundtracks are mastered using PCM. But, PCM is a space hog. It takes up too much space, for example, for a 5.1 PCM soundtrack to fit on a movie film strip. So, companies like Dolby and DTS developed compression systems that zip up PCM to save space. All of the familiar codecs (DD 5.1, TrueHD, DTS, and dts-MA) are just different types of zip files. They cannot be "played" to produce sound. They must be decoded (unzipped) first, which turns them back into PCM.

You're missing one step there. Yes, the Oppo will do the decoding of the compressed file back into PCM. Then, it will do the digital-analog conversion and send analog audio, not PCM, to your receiver. PCM is digital and cannot be sent over multichannel analog connections.

That's an important distinction because it means you will not be able to use your receiver for any of the usual processing it does - things like bass management, distance/timing adjustments, and room correction. That kind of processing is done while the audio is still PCM and the Oppo will need to handle those tasks prior to the digital-analog conversion. The Oppo does bass management and timing adjustments, but no EQ or room correction. (NOTE: The inability to process audio from the analog inputs is true for the vast majority of receivers, but not for all of them. A small number of rather pricey processors can redigitize analog audio, turning it back into PCM.)

One other footnote about analog audio: you will need to boost the subwoofer channel in your receiver or at the sub itself when using analog. LFE is recorded 10db lower than its proper playback level and is dropped another 5db when speakers are set to smalll in the player. With digital transmission, the software boosts the sub output on its own. With multichannel analog, the user needs to apply the boost himself.

Thank you that was very informative, makes me rethink whether I should have my Denon AVR do the decoding/processing or let the Oppo BD player handle it. Can a $500 dollar Blu-ray player's DA's converters be better than an eight year old $4800 dollar Denon AV receiver? I hate to buy 5.1 cables if there's little to no difference...

Thank you that was very informative, makes me rethink whether I should have my Denon AVR do the decoding/processing or let the Oppo BD player handle it. Can a $500 dollar Blu-ray player's DA's converters be better than an eight year old $4800 dollar Denon AV receiver? I hate to buy 5.1 cables if there's little to no difference...Personally, I think the DTS core at 1509 kbps and DD 5.1 at 640 kbps on Blu-ray rival lossless. So, you may not notice much, if any improvement, with analog. But, the requirements of your listening room and the quality of the DACs and other processing tools will determine which sounds better. Analog cables are not expensive and I'd recommend trying it both ways. The Oppo gets great reviews for its analog output. Also, the Oppo plays SACD and DVD-A and you'll need to use analog when playing those discs.

Personally, I think the DTS core at 1509 kbps and DD 5.1 at 640 kbps on Blu-ray rival lossless. So, you may not notice much, if any improvement, with analog. But, the requirements of your listening room and the quality of the DACs and other processing tools will determine which sounds better. Analog cables are not expensive and I'd recommend trying it both ways. The Oppo gets great reviews for its analog output. Also, the Oppo plays SACD and DVD-A and you'll need to use analog when playing those discs.

Well since my receiver is THX Ultra Certified I would expect it to perform excellent no matter what, but that scientist in me will want to hear both coax digital and 5.1 analog. :D It will be very interesting to see what difference there might be, I'll have my brother switch back and forth so I won't know which one I'm listening to. I will add my opinion to the proper thread. I will have the Oppo the first week of August, can't wait! :D

On another not I find it strange for manufacturer's to bring new technology that is barely noticeable even by the pro listening tests, its a good way to sell more units!

I find it strange for manufacturer's to bring new technology that is barely noticeable even by the pro listening tests, its a good way to sell more units!I suspect most people who get lossless don't bother to compare it to the higher bitrate lossy versions available on Blu-ray. It sounds better than the audio on DVD and that's all they need to know.

I suspect most people who get lossless don't bother to compare it to the higher bitrate lossy versions available on Blu-ray. It sounds better than the audio on DVD and that's all they need to know.

Where are the more significant differences in sound between lossless and lossy in both DTS and Dolby Digital? There's either a bigger difference between lossless and lossy or the higher bit rates in either codec. I hope my question is understandable.

Where are the more significant differences in sound between lossless and lossy in both DTS and Dolby Digital? There's either a bigger difference between lossless and lossy or the higher bit rates in either codec. I hope my question is understandable.Sorry. I really can't help there. When your Oppo arrives, hook it up both ways and give a listen.

Personally, I think the DTS core at 1509 kbps and DD 5.1 at 640 kbps on Blu-ray rival lossless.

A couple of things I would like to say to this...because my first generation Panasonic player doesn't support Master Audio AT ALL, the player drops back to utilizing the core DTS stream as an alternative...so I haven't been able to sample a true MA track as of yet, and when I do reviews, I point out that they're running at the core stream if a title is so equipped with an MA soundtrack. That being said, the BITSTREAMED core DTS stream sounds wildly aggressive on most MA-equipped titles I own and review; while I'm uncertain what they sound like COMPARED TO the true Master Audio mixes, I am forced to agree with you in that I too believe that these core DTS tracks can rival lossless mixes...

I suspect most people who get lossless don't bother to compare it to the higher bitrate lossy versions available on Blu-ray. It sounds better than the audio on DVD and that's all they need to know.

I do all the time when I can -- if there's a lossy Dolby Digital track available on a Blu-ray alongside a TrueHD track, I do flip back and forth to A/B 'em...which leads me to disagree with your second sentence; I don't think the jump in quality on the new Blu-ray format is as dramatic in audio as it is (sometimes) with video (over DVD). Geoffrey Morrison, former video editor for Home Theater and now editor of Home Entertainment, has said multiple times in both publications that he doesn't believe the audio on the new high def discs are night and day over DVD's audio; now, of course, it can be argued that he is a VIDEO editor, but in the latest issue of Home Entertainment, he himself reviewed the new Rotel receiver and in it, he mentions "Although the new lossless soundtracks aren't a night and day difference over the lossy DVD soundtracks...[it is nonetheless nice to have lossless available]..." or something very close to that effect.

I have compared, for example, The Dark Knight's defaulting Dolby Digital track on the BD against the selectable TrueHD mix, and on my system, the Dolby Digital mix is every bit as involving, bass-crushing and "aggressive" as the TrueHD mix to my ears...of course, there are a ton of variables here...my PLAYER is decoding the TrueHD into multichannel PCM, etc. which can open up a whole different can of argument there...

I do all the time when I can -- if there's a lossy Dolby Digital track available on a Blu-ray alongside a TrueHD track, I do flip back and forth to A/B 'em...which leads me to disagree with your second sentence; I don't think the jump in quality on the new Blu-ray format is as dramatic in audio as it is (sometimes) with video (over DVD). Geoffrey Morrison, former video editor for Home Theater and now editor of Home Entertainment, has said multiple times in both publications that he doesn't believe the audio on the new high def discs are night and day over DVD's audio; now, of course, it can be argued that he is a VIDEO editor, but in the latest issue of Home Entertainment, he himself reviewed the new Rotel receiver and in it, he mentions "Although the new lossless soundtracks aren't a night and day difference over the lossy DVD soundtracks...[it is nonetheless nice to have lossless available]..." or something very close to that effect. There are exceptions to nearly every statement. I should have said "Most people say it (the audio on BD) sounds better than the audio on DVD..."

I have compared, for example, The Dark Knight's defaulting Dolby Digital track on the BD against the selectable TrueHD mix, and on my system, the Dolby Digital mix is every bit as involving, bass-crushing and "aggressive" as the TrueHD mix to my ears...of course, there are a ton of variables here...my PLAYER is decoding the TrueHD into multichannel PCM, etc. which can open up a whole different can of argument there...I believe the default DD 5.1 track on BD is a 640 kbps encode, not the 448 or 384 found on DVD.

Sorry, duplicate post. Can't delete it. ?

Peter you have a nice setup for your home theater, but your AV gear is not high-end and when you start buying high-end the quality of the DAC's and other stuff improves sound dramatically. You might be somewhat limited because of your AV gear's DAC's and/or your BD players sound capabilities. I can't wait to do a comparison when I get my Oppo BD player the first week of September, my Denon's DAC's should be more capable having spent $4800 dollars for my huge beast! :D

There are exceptions to nearly every statement. I should have said "Most people say it (the audio on BD) sounds better than the audio on DVD..."

I was just merely pointing out some observations.

I believe the default DD 5.1 track on BD is a 640 kbps encode, not the 448 or 384 found on DVD.

Yes -- and that should have been mentioned, that the "lossy" Dolby Digital tracks running parallel to the high resolution audio tracks on Blu-rays are running at a higher bitrate than the DVD versions. That's important to remember when doing A/B comparisons...STILL, when switching back and forth on the SAME Blu-ray Disc to compare Dolby Digital to TrueHD on the fly, I do not sense a tremendous jump in quality when listening to the TrueHD track...which leads me now to a reply to Techlord...

Peter you have a nice setup for your home theater, but your AV gear is not high-end

I am aware that brands such as Onkyo and Panasonic and Sony are not considered "high end" (although they do sell gear in those categories IMO and from literal observation) -- but this statement above was simply not necessary and borders on a bit cruel; the same kind of statement was made by a member named "Rescue" something or other here once, whereby he ripped apart one of my reviews, claiming where did I get off making such observations on a title when my equipment is "at best mediocre"...which I absolutely disagreed with 100 percent, and reported him to the moderators for making the comment. Moderators subsequently agreed with me in that my current setup is not "unsuitable" for getting a true picture of a title's 1080p video or its high resolution audio (save for the fact that I have a BD player that cannot bitstream the new codecs).

Furthermore, I am good friends with reviewers who do this for a living, and their setups are close to mine in terms of quality levels -- many DVD and Blu-ray reviewers I know are running Onkyo 600 to 700-level series receivers with $500 Blu-ray players attached, NOT esoteric super high end boutique brands. Additionally, the people I do freelance work for in the industry have stated on numerous occasions that the "level" equipment I own is just fine for doing the media reviews -- as long as I'm running HDMI 1.3a, have a Blu-ray player with 1080p capabilities, a 1080p HDTV, etc. etc. I am "approved" for doing the work.

I have heard the new codecs on higher end gear at CES and CEDIA demo rooms, which leads me to this:

and when you start buying high-end the quality of the DAC's and other stuff improves sound dramatically. You might be somewhat limited because of your AV gear's DAC's and/or your BD players sound capabilities.

Now, the RECEIVER'S DACs and such MAY make a slight difference here, agreed, BUT, I don't agree about my PLAYER'S "sound capabilities" in that it's been established that sending the TrueHD tracks down an HDMI connection by way of a decoded PCM stream should be just as "good" as the bitstreamed fashion...what exactly did you mean by my player's "sound capabilities are somewhat limited"? There are built-in decoders for TrueHD and DTS-HD, and with Master Audio tracks, the player utilizes standard DTS -- but the tracks I readily "complain" about as not having enough sizzle or "punch" especially compared to their Dolby Digital cousins are the Dolby TrueHD mixes...are you saying that because the player is doing the decoding and sending out a multichannel PCM stream, this is somehow limiting the way I am experiencing these tracks?

As I mentioned above, I have had TrueHD and Dolby Digital tracks on BDs demoed for me at CES, notably, at high end manufacturers' booths, running through some of their most expensive processors (many of which are first hitting shelves now) and I still didn't sense the "night and day" presence that TrueHD was supposed to deliver. It sounded good, but I still concur with Geoffrey Morrison that we're not dealing with night-and-day jumps in quality over lossy Dolby and DTS.

What's interesting about this whole discussion is that for the longest time, I have asked people "in the know" in the industry if we necessarily HAVE TO HAVE super high end, expensive speakers and gear to really, really "experience" these new high res codecs -- the answer has always been a resounding "no, not at all." I have asked about my "measley" Polks from a previous setup being used to hear the new soundtracks, and the answer has always been "those should be just fine (depending on the power you want to feed them.)"

It's weird, but although magazines and online discussion groups label receivers such as Onkyo's 605/606/607 "entry level" basic models, I don't agree with that -- in my opinion, these are more mid-level offerings compared to models that come before them in the company's lineup; it was only recently that Onkyo began selling models cheaper than the 600-series that decoded the new high res formats. Before that, there were very "basic" receivers in their lineup at 75 watts per channel or so that I would TRULY call "low end" and "entry level"...but NOT the 605/606/607.

Most of the $1000-plus models in Onkyo's lineup are referred to as the start of the "mid-priced" offerings, but I feel that their mid-priced models begin at the 600s...

I can't wait to do a comparison when I get my Oppo BD player the first week of September, my Denon's DAC's should be more capable having spent $4800 dollars for my huge beast! :D

I wish I could have been in a position to buy a receiver that expensive when I was putting my current setup together; I needed HDMI 1.3a and onboard decoding for the new formats in an affordable package, and the Onkyo 605 simply fit the bill. At any rate, how do you plan on connecting your Oppo to your Denon -- HDMI?

Techlord has a high end processor, a Denon AVR-5700, that cost ten times as much as an Oppo BDP-83. He's wondering whether lossy processed by his specific receiver will produce superior sound to lossless processed by the Oppo. I believe that's all he's saying.

Techlord has a high end processor, a Denon AVR-5700, that cost ten times as much as an Oppo BDP-83. He's wondering whether lossy processed by his specific receiver will produce superior sound to lossless processed by the Oppo. I believe that's all he's saying.

Got-cha.

I am aware that brands such as Onkyo and Panasonic and Sony are not considered "high end" (although they do sell gear in those categories IMO and from literal observation) -- but this statement above was simply not necessary and borders on a bit cruel;

That statement was based on fact's from which you have provided in the next quote, it was not meant as a putdown. You might as well call those magazines and online discussion groups as making a cruel statement as well. You need to learn not take every factually correct statement as being cruel.


It's weird, but although magazines and online discussion groups label receivers such as Onkyo's 605/606/607 "entry level" basic models, I don't agree with that -- in my opinion,

The reason why magazines and online discussion groups label receivers such as Onkyo's 605/606/607 "entry level" is because they are, your opinion doesn't change the fact's. I am not saying the Onkyo 605 is a bad component or it doesn't sound good, its perfect for your setup. My main point here which BIslander nailed is I was wondering if the $500 dollar Oppo BDP 83 was on par with my ultra pricy Denon AVR 5700 receiver, I can't wait to compare to see how far technology has progressed in the last 5-8 years. :D

That statement was based on fact's from which you have provided in the next quote, it was not meant as a putdown. You might as well call those magazines and online discussion groups as making a cruel statement as well. You need to learn not take every factually correct statement as being cruel.

What I was trying to convey was that the way in which you came across with the comment seemed unreasonably putting down in a sense; as if because I have the gear I have, it's specifically the reason why I am not experiencing the lossless tracks the way they should be experienced -- and I gave reasons why I thought that was uncalled for and untrue.

Further, the quote you specify below was a reference to a complaint of MINE towards the negative feedback the model receives by audiophiles and reviewers alike.

The reason why magazines and online discussion groups label receivers such as Onkyo's 605/606/607 "entry level" is because they are, your opinion doesn't change the fact's. I am not saying the Onkyo 605 is a bad component or it doesn't sound good, its perfect for your setup. My main point here which BIslander nailed is I was wondering if the $500 dollar Oppo BDP 83 was on par with my ultra pricy Denon AVR 5700 receiver, I can't wait to compare to see how far technology has progressed in the last 5-8 years. :D

So, what makes your opinion or their statement that the model is an "entry level" unit correct or more valid? I am saying that I believe -- and some others -- that just because it's priced at that ceiling point, it does not mean it's an "entry level" piece of garbage; there are a few models now under the 600-series that are TRULY entry-level in character and sonic exhibition (from what I have heard at a Las Vegas Expo booth Onkyo was exhibiting at a couple of months ago) and that's why it's my belief that this series in their lineup is not "entry level."

What I was trying to convey was that the way in which you came across with the comment seemed unreasonably putting down in a sense; as if because I have the gear I have, it's specifically the reason why I am not experiencing the lossless tracks the way they should be experienced -- and I gave reasons why I thought that was uncalled for and untrue.

It's not how I came across, it's how you took it. I never meant it as a rude comment, you decided to take it personal.



So, what makes your opinion or their statement that the model is an "entry level" unit correct or more valid?

Believe what you will, whatever makes you happy. :)

The Onkyo 600 series is an entry level HDMI receiver. The distinction is "HDMI" receiver. I have an entry level Denon HDMI receiver as well, but mine came out the year before Denon included HDMI 1.3 and the HD audio decoders in them.

The Onkyo 600 series is an entry level HDMI receiver. The distinction is "HDMI" receiver. I have an entry level Denon HDMI receiver as well, but mine came out the year before Denon included HDMI 1.3 and the HD audio decoders in them.

Your right, when a magazine reviews an AV receiver they receive the unit with full documentation about everything, features, and what market they are targeting. It would be bad for a Home Theater magazine to review a product and provide false information in the review!

Techlord has a high end processor, a Denon AVR-5700, that cost ten times as much as an Oppo BDP-83. He's wondering whether lossy processed by his specific receiver will produce superior sound to lossless processed by the Oppo. I believe that's all he's saying.

Yes and I believe the answer will be let that receiver handle the analog audio decoded by the Oppo BDP-83 when playing Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, Dolby Digital plus, DTS-HD HR, SACD, DVD-A and Lossless Uncompressed PCM. He will want to have the AVR-5700 handle the various DVD-V codecs is my guess.

It all should work great and is exactly the reason the Oppo decodes and has analog 7.1 output. Owners of expensive AV Receivers prior to HDMI 1.3a audio processing sure don't want to have to replace their equipment this soon.

Chris

Yes and I believe the answer will be let that receiver handle the analog audio decoded by the Oppo BDP-83 when playing Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, Dolby Digital plus, DTS-HD HR, SACD, DVD-A and Lossless Uncompressed PCM. He will want to have the AVR-5700 handle the various DVD-V codecs is my guess.

It all should work great and is exactly the reason the Oppo decodes and has analog 7.1 output. Owners of expensive AV Receivers prior to HDMI 1.3a audio processing sure don't want to have to replace their equipment this soon.

Chris

I'm going to be keeping my Denon AVR 5700 receiver for a few more years or until there's a feature that my receiver is incapable of performing. I gave all my DVD collection away to friends, including my Metallica DVD-A disc.

I'm going to be keeping my Denon AVR 5700 receiver for a few more years or until there's a feature that my receiver is incapable of performing. I gave all my DVD collection away to friends, including my Metallica DVD-A disc.

Wow, I need to try to figure out how to be your friend before something better than Blu-ray is available. I will be willing to take your Blu-ray collection off your hands when that happens.:)

I know you realize the Oppo BDP-83 can play the Metallica Black Album DVD-A just fine and there isn't likely going to be an improvement to that album anytime soon so I am curious why you would give that one away.

Chris

I'm going to be keeping my Denon AVR 5700 receiver for a few more years or until there's a feature that my receiver is incapable of performing.In looking at the manual for your Denon, I think its age is showing a bit. There's no EQ for room correction and the crossover for bass management is fixed at 80Hz. So, it offers no advantages to the Oppo in those areas.

The Denon also lacks a setting to boost the SW output for analog. LFE is recorded 10dB low to prevent clipping and needs to be boosted in the receiver or at the sub itself. (The Oppo properly drops the sub output another 5dB when speakers are set to small, meaning you would need to add 15dB of gain downstream somewhere.) Current Denons have an option to boost the analog sub by 5, 10, or 15dB. But, the 5700 does not have that feature. So, you'll need to work harder to provide the needed boost.

In looking at the manual for your Denon, I think its age is showing a bit. There's no EQ for room correction and the crossover for bass management is fixed at 80Hz. So, it offers no advantages to the Oppo in those areas.

The Denon also lacks a setting to boost the SW output for analog. LFE is recorded 10dB low to prevent clipping and needs to be boosted in the receiver or at the sub itself. (The Oppo properly drops the sub output another 5dB when speakers are set to small, meaning you would need to add 15dB of gain downstream somewhere.) Current Denons have an option to boost the analog sub by 5, 10, or 15dB. But, the 5700 does not have that feature. So, you'll need to work harder to provide the needed boost.

Look at page 26, it shows under "System Setup Menu"
Speaker Configuration - Small/Large
Bass Output - THX or Non THX
Delay Time - In feet or Meters
Channel Level - Default +10db upto + - 15db
Subwooder Peak Limit Lev.

I can also set the crossover point for the subwoofer, my SW also has a switch on the back for THX or Variable. My speaker system is designed to send everything below 80Hz to the SW, I will go into the menu and have a closer look, want me to check for anything specific? Its been awhile since I've been in there, I use a sound level pressure metter from Radio Shack to calibrate my speakers.

Wow, I need to try to figure out how to be your friend before something better than Blu-ray is available. I will be willing to take your Blu-ray collection off your hands when that happens.:)

I know you realize the Oppo BDP-83 can play the Metallica Black Album DVD-A just fine and there isn't likely going to be an improvement to that album anytime soon so I am curious why you would give that one away.

Chris

Now that I think about giving my DVD collection away I feel that was a major mistake! I don't even have the ability to see DVD upconversion when I get my Oppo BD player! I never meant to give my Metallica DVD-A away, I will be getting that back if I have to tear it out out of my friends mothers hands! :lol:

Look at page 26, it shows under "System Setup Menu"
Speaker Configuration - Small/Large
Bass Output - THX or Non THX
Delay Time - In feet or Meters
Channel Level - Default +10db upto + - 15db
Subwooder Peak Limit Lev.You can't adjust channel levels in System Setup without affecting your digital sources as well. You'll end up with too much bass for anything your Denon decodes. You need to boost the sub for analog only. The newer Denons have that option.

You'll probably need to boost the volume on the sub itself to get the analog side calibrated and then attenuate the sub output in the Denon for your digital sources.

I can also set the crossover point for the subwoofer, my SW also has a switch on the back for THX or Variable. My speaker system is designed to send everything below 80Hz to the SW, I will go into the menu and have a closer look, want me to check for anything specific? Its been awhile since I've been in there, I use a sound level pressure metter from Radio Shack to calibrate my speakers.I was merely pointing out that the bass management in your Denon is no better than what's offered by the Oppo. Many newer AVRs offer variable crossovers and allow you to set different crossovers for the center speaker or the surrounds. But, the Denon 5700 has a fixed 80Hz crossover, just like the Oppo.

You can't adjust channel levels in System Setup without affecting your digital sources as well. You'll end up with too much bass for anything your Denon decodes. You need to boost the sub for analog only. The newer Denons have that option.

You'll probably need to boost the volume on the sub itself to get the analog side calibrated and then attenuate the sub output in the Denon for your digital sources.

I was merely pointing out that the bass management in your Denon is no better than what's offered by the Oppo. Many newer AVRs offer variable crossovers and allow you to set different crossovers for the center speaker or the surrounds. But, the Denon 5700 has a fixed 80Hz crossover, just like the Oppo.

My older Yamaha (5+ years old) has separate speaker level adjustments for analog separate from the digital inputs. I never checked my HDMI Denon with analog since I use the HDMI inputs. I would be surprised if his Denon didn't have separate memory for digital & analog also.

You can't adjust channel levels in System Setup without affecting your digital sources as well. You'll end up with too much bass for anything your Denon decodes. You need to boost the sub for analog only. The newer Denons have that option.

You'll probably need to boost the volume on the sub itself to get the analog side calibrated and then attenuate the sub output in the Denon for your digital sources.

I was merely pointing out that the bass management in your Denon is no better than what's offered by the Oppo. Many newer AVRs offer variable crossovers and allow you to set different crossovers for the center speaker or the surrounds. But, the Denon 5700 has a fixed 80Hz crossover, just like the Oppo.

Oh now I understand, my menu settings affect the digital sources and its not capable of affecting an analog source such as the Oppo. Your right my Denon does have a fixed 80Hz crossover, so all my setting for my SW will not work for the 7.1 analog input and I will have to adjust the SW directly? Wait a minute can't the Oppo's bass management correct my short comings?

Now that I think about giving my DVD collection away I feel that was a major mistake! I don't even have the ability to see DVD upconversion when I get my Oppo BD player! I never meant to give my Metallica DVD-A away, I will be getting that back if I have to tear it out out of my friends mothers hands! :lol:

Yes, now that I think about it, giving away all DVD's was a mistake, the Oppo BDP-83 is a great DVD player.

Chris

Oh now I understand, my menu settings affect the digital sources and its not capable of affecting an analog source such as the Oppo.Not exactly. The channel level controls in the Denon System Setup affect all sources. Presumably, you are already properly calibrated for digital. If you crank up the sub by 10dB to 15dB using System Setup, analog from the Oppo will have the right amount of bass. But, your digital sources will have too much. You need a way to boost the sub for analog without affecting your previously calibrated digital setup. Newer Denons have an analog SW boost setting for just that purpose. The 5700 does not and you need to find another way to boost the analog SW without screwing up your digital calibration.

Your right my Denon does have a fixed 80Hz crossover, so all my setting for my SW will not work for the 7.1 analog input and I will have to adjust the SW directly? Wait a minute can't the Oppo's bass management correct my short comings?The Oppo will handle bass management just fine, meaning it will reroute bass below the 80Hz crossover from the full channels to the sub. Your problem is downstream of that. With bass management, the sub channel will arrive at your Denon 15dB lower than it should be. The bass will be quite weak and you'll need to boost it back up. With digital, the software in the processor takes care of everything. With analog, you have to do it yourself.

Since your receiver lacks a setting to boost the SW for Ext In, you'll have to work a little harder. But, it can still be done. I recommend you simply turn up the sub and calibrate analog from the Oppo with your SPL. Don't adjust channels in the Denon's System Setup. p43 explains how to do the adjustments so that they only affect the Ext Inputs. That's what you want.

Turning up the sub screws up your digital calibration, of course. You offset that by using the Denon channel trims to attenuate the digital SW output by the same amount you turned it up on the sub itself. This approach allows you to calibrate for both analog and digital.

Not exactly. The channel level controls in the Denon System Setup affect all sources. Presumably, you are already properly calibrated for digital. If you crank up the sub by 10dB to 15dB using System Setup, analog from the Oppo will have the right amount of bass. But, your digital sources will have too much. You need a way to boost the sub for analog without affecting your previously calibrated digital setup. Newer Denons have an analog SW boost setting for just that purpose. The 5700 does not and you need to find another way to boost the analog SW without screwing up your digital calibration.

The Oppo will handle bass management just fine, meaning it will reroute bass below the 80Hz crossover from the full channels to the sub. Your problem is downstream of that. With bass management, the sub channel will arrive at your Denon 15dB lower than it should be. The bass will be quite weak and you'll need to boost it back up. With digital, the software in the processor takes care of everything. With analog, you have to do it yourself.

Since your receiver lacks a setting to boost the SW for Ext In, you'll have to work a little harder. But, it can still be done. I recommend you simply turn up the sub and calibrate analog from the Oppo with your SPL. Don't adjust channels in the Denon's System Setup. p43 explains how to do the adjustments so that they only affect the Ext Inputs. That's what you want.

Turning up the sub screws up your digital calibration, of course. You offset that by using the Denon channel trims to attenuate the digital SW output by the same amount you turned it up on the sub itself. This approach allows you to calibrate for both analog and digital

I understand everything up to the point were the red lettering is, my Denon channel trims are already set and calibrated for all digital sources and I don't want to mess that up.

I understand everything up to the point were the red lettering is, my Denon channel trims are already set and calibrated for all digital sources and I don't want to mess that up.That's understandable. And you can always calibrate analog by doing level adjustments for the full frequency channels in the Oppo. But, Oppo recommends against that approach, saying the player channel trims should be left at 0, if possible.

Meanwhile, the speaker trims described on p43 of the Denon manual only affect analog, not your digital setups. When you select Ext In and adjust levels without entering System Setup, Ext In is the only source affected. The same goes for all of the surround modes. Each can have its own unique trims.

The problem here is the sub. Since your Denon doesn't have a setting to boost the sub for analog, your options are limited.

You could try using the trim adjustment described on p43 to increase the gain on the SW for the Ext Inputs. Maybe you can get enough boost that way. If so, you are home free without making any changes that would affect your digital calibration.

Or, you can lower the output of the five non-LFE channels in the player by up to 15dB. With that approach, your noise floor will go way up and you'll really have to crank up the master volume on the Denon when using analog.

Or, you can do the boost at the sub and offset it for digital by lowering the sub output in the Denon. I think that's the best option. But, it does mean making one change that will affect your digital calibration. You'll need to lower the sub output in the Denon by the same amount that you increase it at the sub. That gets your digital calibration back where it started out.

That's understandable. And you can always calibrate analog by doing level adjustments for the full frequency channels in the Oppo. But, Oppo recommends against that approach, saying the player channel trims should be left at 0, if possible.

Meanwhile, the speaker trims described on p43 of the Denon manual only affect analog, not your digital setups. When you select Ext In and adjust levels without entering System Setup, Ext In is the only source affected. The same goes for all of the surround modes. Each can have its own unique trims.

The problem here is the sub. Since your Denon doesn't have a setting to boost the sub for analog, your options are limited.

You could try using the trim adjustment described on p43 to increase the gain on the SW for the Ext Inputs. Maybe you can get enough boost that way. If so, you are home free without making any changes that would affect your digital calibration.

Or, you can lower the output of the five non-LFE channels in the player by up to 15dB. With that approach, your noise floor will go way up and you'll really have to crank up the master volume on the Denon when using analog.

Or, you can do the boost at the sub and offset it for digital by lowering the sub output in the Denon. I think that's the best option. But, it does mean making one change that will affect your digital calibration. You'll need to lower the sub output in the Denon by the same amount that you increase it at the sub. That gets your digital calibration back where it started out.

Are you saying that if I simply hit the T.Tone key and adjust the speaker levels through T.Tone that it will store the setting for analog calibration only? If I enter the Setup Menu and adjust the speaker levels, those are for the digital calibration? Then all I would have to do when switching between sources is increase the SW by 15db and then down 15db when switching back?

It's not how I came across, it's how you took it. I never meant it as a rude comment, you decided to take it personal.

How you came across is how I interpretted the comment, the same way you are interpretting the comment as not being meant to be rude -- you say I decided to take it personally, yet you decided to conclude that it's "not how you came across."

So, one's wrong and one's right, according to this logic, eh? There's no double standard here?

Believe what you will, whatever makes you happy. :)

It's not what "makes me happy," it's my belief that the units are not entry-level or "cheap" in the way everyone makes them out to be -- there are more basic, entry units in the firm's lineup right now.

The Onkyo 600 series is an entry level HDMI receiver. The distinction is "HDMI" receiver. I have an entry level Denon HDMI receiver as well, but mine came out the year before Denon included HDMI 1.3 and the HD audio decoders in them.

Again, I disagree here because there are models with HDMI capability in the company's lineup which are cheaper with much less power and simply don't "look" as beefy; for all intents and purposes, the 600-series should be considered "mid-level" pieces of audio equipment, as some publications do. Most don't...but I've seen some that do.

After all, there are people who feel the asking price of $500 or so is stretching it in terms of a receiver purchase -- that may be their limit, and it can be interpretted that even though the unit is below $1K, it's "mid-priced" in a certain way.

It's just the way I see it; all interpretation. :what:

How you came across is how I interpretted the comment, the same way you are interpretting the comment as not being meant to be rude -- you say I decided to take it personally, yet you decided to conclude that it's "not how you came across."

So, one's wrong and one's right, according to this logic, eh? There's no double standard here?

It's not what "makes me happy," it's my belief that the units are not entry-level or "cheap" in the way everyone makes them out to be -- there are more basic, entry units in the firm's lineup right now.

Peter you have a nice setup for your home theater, but your AV gear is not high-end and when you start buying high-end the quality of the DAC's and other stuff improves sound dramatically. You might be somewhat limited because of your AV gear's DAC's and/or your BD players sound capabilities. I can't wait to do a comparison when I get my Oppo BD player the first week of September, my Denon's DAC's should be more capable having spent $4800 dollars for my huge beast!

I want you to tell me what is rude about my statement above, also if anyone thinks what I wrote was rude I would like your opinion also please.

Are you saying that if I simply hit the T.Tone key and adjust the speaker levels through T.Tone that it will store the setting for analog calibration only? No. It's on the bottom half of the page, right after T. Tone.
If I enter the Setup Menu and adjust the speaker levels, those are for the digital calibration?System Setup is the "master control". Changes made there apply to everything. So, you do that first. Then, you can set different levels for each surround mode, including the external inputs, using the speaker adjustments described on p43. There's an explanation of this in the manual at the bottom of p23.

Here are the steps:

> Select Ext In.
> Press the Ch Select/Enter button until you get to the speaker you want to adjust.
> Use the up and down arrows to adjust the level for that speaker.

The changes you make only apply to the surround mode you've selected, Ext In in this case. The Denon will use the levels you set for that mode every time you engage it.

Then all I would have to do when switching between sources is increase the SW by 15db and then down 15db when switching back?No. You do the setup work once and never have to deal with it when switching between analog and digital sources. Whenever you select Ext In for playback, the Denon knows to boost the sub output by 15dB.

No. It's on the bottom half of the page, right after T. Tone.
System Setup is the "master control". Changes made there apply to everything. So, you do that first. Then, you can set different levels for each surround mode, including the external inputs, using the speaker adjustments described on p43. There's an explanation of this in the manual at the bottom of p23.

Here are the steps:

> Select Ext In.
> Press the Ch Select/Enter button until you get to the speaker you want to adjust.
> Use the up and down arrows to adjust the level for that speaker.

The changes you make only apply to the surround mode you've selected, Ext In in this case. The Denon will use the levels you set for that mode every time you engage it.

No. You do the setup work once and never have to deal with it when switching between analog and digital sources. Whenever you select Ext In for playback, the Denon knows to boost the sub output by 15dB.

I think I understand now. When I'm in Ext In and have finished calibrating it, it will remember these separately from anything not in Ext In?

I want you to tell me what is rude about my statement above, also if anyone thinks what I wrote was rude I would like your opinion also please.

I just think there is a bit of an "issue" going on here; according to your stats, you joined the forum very recently, and while almost anyone part of the membership here will argue against what I do, that it makes absolutely no difference when someone here joins the family, there's something offputting about your immediate comments to me about my system and the fact that it's not "high end" and the theory that it's why I am not experiencing the sonic detail I'm supposed to with Dolby TrueHD tracks and the like. The whole rhetoric of commentary simply rubbed my britches the wrong way; you must understand, first and foremost, that I absolutely never claimed that my equipment was "high end" nor do I think that -- but it's my understanding that a thrilling high resolution audio experience can be had from equipment in the Onkyo TX-SR600-family's range. It doesn't boast the DACs of esoteric models, but it does indeed decode the newer surround codecs from Dolby and DTS, and while I haven't been able to tap into those because of the bitstreaming issues of my player, I am experiencing whatever sonic bliss and detail I can get from my setup at the moment which I feel has nothing to do with the "level of my equipment."

I don't think it's right, or called for, to judge anyone's ownership of gear on here -- as I said previously, I had this argument with another member here, and moderators felt once the accusation of someone's level of equipment got involved, it should be deemed "unfair." I will continue holding to my personal, honest belief that the Onkyo "600" series is in fact not "basic, entry-level gear" for "beginners" in this hobby.

Let's not get other members involved in this bickering between us regarding the "lowly status" of my gear and whether or not what you said to me was "rude;" let's leave it at the fact that you believe what you believe about what I own, and I believe what I believe (although I am acknowledging the fact that I don't own esoteric pieces of gear) and that I don't think I'm missing "so much" crucial information on these new codecs during my testing because of the "substandard" DACs or circuitry within my particular gear...

Let's just drop it. :2cents

Let's just drop it. :2cents

I agree with you completely, everyone has his or her opinions and are entitled to them. No hard feelings, were here to share in our knowledge and opinions. :)

I think I understand now. When I'm in Ext In and have finished calibrating it, it will remember these separately from anything not in Ext In?Yes! :)