I'm going to start my own thread for my specific situation. I've already gotten quite a bit of help and advice and am almost ready to pull the trigger on the equipment. I'm hoping this thread will help me decide 100% what to get, and also help along the way with fine tuning once it's installed.
I will cut and paste some of the questions I've posted in other threads (sorry), and the responses I've gotten in those threads and through email. I'm just going to edit out some of the statements that don't pertain to this discussion.
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My original post:
Here's my tvfool chart. I'd prefer not to use a pre-amp to avoid noise (and cost). However, I'd also like to use the smallest antenna possible for aesthetics and ease of installation (and cost).
I'm putting it around 20-23' high (on top of my roof), and running it to the opposite end of the house, all together I estimate the coax run will be about 65 feet, maybe 70 to the tuner itself.
I was hoping to get away with something small like a CM 3010. There's an optional 3038 pre-amp, but it doubles the cost.
As you can see, I have a couple of VHF channels. I was hoping for an all in one solution, including FM so I could pick up the one or two HD radio channels from the same area as these TV stations (wilkes barre).
I would send the coax into a ground breaker and then into a keystone wall jack. I thought I'd share a 4 way ground breaker with my 2 directv coax lines, and then down into the same ground. Do I really need to send an 8awg copper ground wire all the way up with the coax and attach it to a bolt on the mast itself? I can't just attach the ground breaker to the ground pole? (I was reading this in the 3010 manual).
After coming out of the keystone jack inside the house, I would split it 3 ways, one to my TV's tuner, one to my DirecTV box's tuner so I could record, and one to my AVR's FM input.
BTW, I'm only interested in the yellows and green channels in this chart. Nothing extra really. antennaweb shows them mostly as yellow also. They show 28.1 and 22.1 as yellow (green on tvfool),24.4 as blue (yellow on tvfool) and 38.1 as violet (yellow on tvfool). Those are the only anomolies.
P.S. rabbit ears don't quite cut it and I don't have an attic space. Thanks in advance.
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Don_M responded:
The 3010 probably won't cut it, as its gain is mediocre. It's not likely to provide reliable reception without a pre-amp when splitting signals three ways. You'd be better off putting up a CM 4221 for providing signals to the TV tuner and DVR. The 4221's gain is much better, it's actually smaller than the 3010 (though it mounts horizontally, not vertically), and it's offered at about the same shipped cost.
The 4221 won't be good for FM, so please consider putting up a dedicated antenna at the other end of the house and running a cable directly to the AVR for FM/HD radio. Take a look at AntennaCraft FMSS, FM6 or even AC9 for inexpensive solutions.
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Then a user responded via PM. I will recap our discussion without mentioning the username:
The only small antenna I have used is the Winegard HD7210P "Ghost Killer". Even though it is larger than what you are looking for; I feel it would be a good fit in such a mountainous area. (Your desired stations look to be about 40 miles away) I had very good results with UHF & VHF stations 40-60 miles away. It is designed for channels 2-69 so it should work for FM pretty well also. The newer antennas designed for channels 7-52 will not work well for FM; as it is a much lower frequency range.
With 4 sets hooked up; you may end up needing some type of amplification; but I would try without an amp to see what happens.
Here is a link showing the size of the antenna.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882172015
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My response:
Thanks for getting back to me so fast. I may just end up picking that one up instead based on your recommendation. Can you suggest an ideal pre-amp to pair if I end up feeling I need one?
Do I need to run an 8awg copper ground wire all the way from the antenna down to the ground rod? Or do you just run the RG6 coax and right before going into the house you split it with a ground breaker and send that into the ground rod? (like the direcTV people do it).
So once it gets passed the ground breaker and goes into the house, I would then if necessary plug it into power supply for the pre-amp (I assume unplugging the power supply would disable the pre-amp, so I could test it back and forth if I wanted?) and from there I would put it to a 3-way splitter, into 2 TV tuners, and the 3rd into the FM jack, correct?
(of course I'll try it first without the pre-amp, but that's the scenario I envision including the possible pre-amp)
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The user's response:
I would still recommend the 7210 Ghost killer as I have used one and it provides great results on both UHF & VHF for such a small antenna. With 3 sets hooked up a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp will overcome the losses associated with the splitting. You maybe able to turn off the FM trap of the pre-amp and use this for FM as well. If you get inteference on your TV, you will have to turn the FM trap on and use a separate antenna for FM. You will just have to experiment with that. You can't just unplug a pre-amp to determine what things look like without it. As soon as you unplug it; you will lose everything. You have to completely bypass both pieces to determine what the real difference is. i just have the mast and coax terminator block running to the electric meter for grounding. I am just using the grounding wire that Radio Shack sells.
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Back to the public thread now,
Don_M wrote:
The 3010 probably won't cut it, as its gain is mediocre. It's not likely to provide reliable reception without a pre-amp when splitting signals three ways. You'd be better off putting up a CM 4221 for providing signals to the TV tuner and DVR. The 4221's gain is much better, it's actually smaller than the 3010 (though it mounts horizontally, not vertically), and it's offered at about the same shipped cost.
The 4221 won't be good for FM, so please consider putting up a dedicated antenna at the other end of the house and running a cable directly to the AVR for FM/HD radio. Take a look at AntennaCraft FMSS, FM6 or even AC9 for inexpensive solutions.
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My response:
That would cover me for those 2 VHF channels also?
Does the FM need to be on the other side of the house because they interfere if they are too close?
Would either the 4221 or the FM need a pre-amp in my case? I'd prefer not if possible.
Another user suggested the Winegard HD7210 Ghost killer, and another suggested the HD7082 over that. Thoughts on how the CM 4221 compares to those?
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jim5506 wrote:
You want your cake and eat it too, want a small inconspicuous antenna without pre-amp but good reception.
If you want consistent reception for the channels listed, I'd look at the Winegard HD7690 series designed for channels 7-69.
The bowtie antennas, especially the single column ones are very weak on VHF.
The Winegard HD7694P is the smallest I'd even consider and I might bump up a couple of steps to guarantee reception after splitting.
HD7694P on Ch 11 +8dB (lowest figure).
line loss antenna to splitter approx -2dB.
line loss in splitter approx -7dB.
signal estimate at antenna (from TVFool) +20dB (lowest figure).
Add'm up looking at +19dB noise margin so it should be OK.
First time using TVFools new numbers.
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Don_M wrote:
Facesnorth: My apologies for misreading your TVFool report. Brain belch made me look at the virtual-channels column rather than the real channels, hence the 4221 recommendation. Jim's antenna advice is far better.
To answer your earlier question, yes, two antennas can interfere with one another; placing them at opposite ends of the house eliminates the possibility. (Actually, 10 feet is ample separation.) You could use an HD-769x series antenna to pick up local analog FM. However, it might not do so well with the hybrid-digital ("HD") signals you want, and again, the three-way split would weaken signals per Jim's calculations to the point where you might need a pre-amp. So two antennas remain worthy of consideration.
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That's pretty much where we left off. Based on this series of discussions, I am leaning towards an HD-7694P. Before I do that, would I be better off getting a 7695 or even a 7697? Would getting a bigger antenna like that introduce more possibility of multicast or interference from more distant stations? The reason I was thinking about a bigger one is because, well if I have to put a big ugly one up I'd rather only have to do it once and not have to take it down and buying a bigger one later. Plus I'm trying to avoid needing a pre-amp if possible. And I'm planning to split into 2 or down the line maybe even 3-4 tuners. Right now I'm just going to split one into my TV, and the other into my DirectTV HR20. But down the line it might be nice to send 1 or 2 into an HTPC with Vista media center running.
It also sounds like I should pick up a seperate FM antenna and mount it on the other side of the house. I'm looking at Don_M's suggestions of an AntennaCraft FMSS, FM6 or AC9. It would be nice to put up the FMSS because it looks lightweight and easy to install. Is there a way I could find out where all the FM stations are around me that I could hope to pickup similar to TVFool or Antennaweb? It would help me determine if I need directional or omnidirectional, and the distance I need.
Also, as you can see in some of my posts I'm a little lost about the issue of grounding. I am going to run DB6 coax from the roof down to the ground block, which will tie into a ground, and then go into the house. Do I also need to run 8awg green copper wire from the ground post all the way up along with the coax and tie into the mast mounted on the rooftop? For both the VHF/UHF antenna and the FM antenna?
Finally, like a true newb, I could use some suggestions on mounting materials. Let's say I buy the 7694/5/7P and the FMSS/6. What else will I need to buy to get it on the rooftop? (suggested mast, mounts, etc) I want the installation to be as easy as possible. The peak of the roof is about 23' off the ground. The shingles stick out about 2" from the fascia trim up top.
I'm not sure how to figure out the exact coordinates for my house, but I did a street level for antennaweb, and that attachment is posted here along with my tvfool report.
Thanks everyone for your help!